A Lutheran Roadblock

RileyG

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Is it possible that Luther may have been suffering from Alzheimer's or Dementia later in life which is why some of his writings were...not very charitable to say the least? Those brain diseases were not understood in the 1500s by any means.
 

Lamb

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Is it possible that Luther may have been suffering from Alzheimer's or Dementia later in life which is why some of his writings were...not very charitable to say the least? Those brain diseases were not understood in the 1500s by any means.

To me it seemed as if Luther had Aspergers since everything to him was either black or white. When people didn't see his way, he felt it harshly enough that he lashed out, because he couldn't understand why others didn't see what was right in front of them.
 

Josiah

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Is it possible that Luther may have been suffering from Alzheimer's or Dementia later in life which is why some of his writings were...not very charitable to say the least? Those brain diseases were not understood in the 1500s by any means.


Hi @RileyG good to have you here; you're joining a LOT of us here who moved from CF. Several of us were once on staff there.


I've personally never read it theorized that Luther had Alzheimer's. I don't think his speech requires or even suggests that. And of course, those are diseases that USUALLY impact older people, TYPICALLY a "old person" problem. Luther was 62 when he died... and it's very likely he died from a digestive disease he had for many years or from a heart attack - not Alzheimer's.


Some points....

1. We look back 500 years from OUR perspective to evaluate what others wrote - including the tone used in those writings. Today we look back with our VERY "PC" mentality and value, our embrace of Mr. Rogers (!), looking back five centuries in the past to an age when things we very debative, scholars were "in your face", it was scholarly to state things in a very polemic way. WE with our Mr. Rogers "niceness" look back at that "in your face" polemics and are horrified. I would NOT defend the approach five centuries ago (what you politely called "uncharitable" - nicely "PC" of you) - I find it despicable and I think it made matters worse, but then I'm a part of that modern "PC" mentality, I think everyone should be more like Mr. Rogers. BUT we need to see history in context. We need to "judge" people in the context of when and where they lived.

2. Luther said a LOT! There are books recording jsut what Luther himself said - hundreds. It seems LOTS got written down - if not by him then by an ever present host of students and followers (students often wrote down every joke and comment he made -sometimes after too much beer - in what collectively is known as "Table Talk" ) - and some of this is pretty disgusting. When Luther was writing officially... aware it would be recorded and widely read, he was USALLY nice (again, typical of the day) but with the printing press (a fairly new invention) and the greatly increased literacy rate, stuff that would be private became much more public. So we have a situation we still see today... where some famous person says something they THOUGHT was private but became public. Again, should a politician or actor or athlete say ANYTHING that can't be heard by a child or their pastor? NO! But it happens. It happened then, too... much more commonly.

3. Luther was a sinner. He did bad things. He said some bad things. NO ONE disputes that, including Luther. And it's obvious that he became increasingly frustrated as he aged. Partly I'm sure because these were tough times and partly because he struggled a lot with health, he was persistently in pain and suffering from a digestive disorder. And his frustration perhaps impacted his speech. Should it have done so? No! But I don't think it 's entirely shocking that it did. Again, context.


The point HERE is whether the frequent (very modern) accusation that Luther was Anti-Semitic is correct. Since World War II, we hear this a lot; it's even found in history classes. But it's not true. Luther (like most Christians THEN) was against all religions that denied Christ and rejected the Gospel: he was anti-Jewish RELIGION. He was not anti-Jewish RACE. Hitler twisted this to serve his purposes but he's twisting Luther. Again, context. Today, lots of Christians think all religions are equal and all equally can and should be embraced and defended... relativism reigns among many - but Luther lived in a age when they believed in Truth and falsehood and when Christians believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and that there is salvation in no other... to deny and reject Him is to be condemned and to threaten the Gospel. In THAT context, the very common repudiation of unchristian religions is understandable. But again, this was anti-Jewish RELIGION, not anti-Jewish RACE.


Blessings on your Lenten observation.


- Josiah


.
 
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prism

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If that Jew in Luther's day died in unbelief...he was not saved. Do you agree with that or disagree?
Yes, just as anyone dying in unbelief. Still, no excuse for rants.
 
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prism

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@prism

Friend, I'm not SURE I'm getting your point, but it seems to ME you are agreeing that Luther was not anti-Semitic (against the Jewish RACE) - as he is often accused of, following Hitler misuse) but rather (like virtually all Christians until very recently) anti-Jewish RELIGION - a religion that denies Christ and the Christian Gospel. THAT'S the issue before us. And it seems to ME, we're in agreement there.



.
As I said in post #9...
*******************************************************************************
I just wonder if Luther wrote with such vehemence against others as he did the Jews? I don't believe it was racially or even doctrinally motivated as much as perhaps coming under spiritual influences in the late 1530s.
It is believed that Luther was influenced by Anton Margaritha's book Der gantze Jüdisch Glaub (The Whole Jewish Belief).[11] Margaritha, a convert to Christianity who had become a Lutheran, published his antisemitic book in 1530 which was read by Luther in 1539. In 1539, Luther got his hands on the book and immediately became fond of it: "The materials provided in this book confirmed for Luther that the Jews in their blindness wanted nothing to do with faith and justification through faith."(Wiki)
In fairness to Luther, he spoke highly of the Jews in his early writings.
*********************************************************************************
So it seems if there was antisemitism involved, it came in his later years (1539-1546).
Sadly, it's kept mum in Lutheran Churches today.
 

Lamb

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As I said in post #9...
*******************************************************************************
I just wonder if Luther wrote with such vehemence against others as he did the Jews? I don't believe it was racially or even doctrinally motivated as much as perhaps coming under spiritual influences in the late 1530s.

In fairness to Luther, he spoke highly of the Jews in his early writings.
*********************************************************************************
So it seems if there was antisemitism involved, it came in his later years (1539-1546).
Sadly, it's kept mum in Lutheran Churches today.

It's kept mum in Lutheran Churches today? We don't preach on Luther. We preach about Christ crucified for the forgiveness of our sins so we can have eternal life.
 

Josiah

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It's kept mum in Lutheran Churches today? We don't preach on Luther. We preach about Christ crucified for the forgiveness of our sins so we can have eternal life.


Lutherans today don't speak of Luther's Antisemitism because there was none.

Antisemitism refers to RACE (the Semites), he (like virtually all Christians until very, very recently) was against non-Christian RELIGIONS, those that denied Christ and rejected the Gospel. Judaism and Islam were two obvious examples in Luther's day. In German (as in English), the term "JEW" can refer to either the RACE or the RELIGION so Hitler just applied Luther's comments to a RACE when Luther clearly was referring to the RELIGION. Sadly, since World War II, many have continued to use Hitler's abuse of Luther.


.
 
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prism

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It's kept mum in Lutheran Churches today? We don't preach on Luther. We preach about Christ crucified for the forgiveness of our sins so we can have eternal life.
I'm talking about side conversations/radio hosts etc.
 

prism

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Lutherans today don't speak of Luther's Antisemitism because there was none.

Antisemitism refers to RACE (the Semites), he (like virtually all Christians until very, very recently) was against non-Christian RELIGIONS, those that denied Christ and rejected the Gospel. Judaism and Islam were two obvious examples in Luther's day. In German (as in English), the term "JEW" can refer to either the RACE or the RELIGION so Hitler just applied Luther's comments to a RACE when Luther clearly was referring to the RELIGION. Sadly, since World War II, many have continued to use Hitler's abuse of Luther.


.
I don't recall Luther writing a book on "The Germans and Their Lies", or Italians or French etc.
Maybe the German and other Lutherans can clear the air of 'Hitler's abuse of Luther' by speaking about it instead of hiding it as adiaphora.
 

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I'm talking about side conversations/radio hosts etc.

Well, they do discuss it, but only because people who don't understand the history behind Luther's comments keep bringing it up.
 

prism

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Well, they do discuss it, but only because people who don't understand the history behind Luther's comments keep bringing it up.
Whatever it takes to keep circling the "waggons".
 

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Forgiven1

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We don't preach Luther, we preach Christ crucified. When the issue is brought up, we educate the members of what Luther was saying, usually with the information posted back in post #6.

The only roadblock there is is from people who refuse to understand the culture of the mid-1500s and look at the writing with 2024 politically correct eyes. Doesn't work, context is vey necessary.
 

Josiah

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We don't preach Luther, we preach Christ crucified. When the issue is brought up, we educate the members of what Luther was saying, usually with the information posted back in post #6.


Yup.

The only "roadblock" are those who don't know that the word "JEW" in German (and English) can refer to a RACE or a RELIGION. It has been known for 500 years that Luther (like virtually all Christians until very recently) was against the Jewish RELIGION - its denial of Christ, its repudiation of the Gospel (just as he was to the Islamic religion for the same reason). Lutherans have freely admitted this. Often even agreeing with him, those religions are wrong and should be repudiated.

Hitler, seeking to promote his antisemitism (against a RACE, not a RELIGION) simply misapplied and abused what Luther said to make it seem that he was against a RACE when he was not. And since World War II, some have continued Hitler's mistake.



.
 
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prism

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Care to clarify that comment?
'Circling the wagons' /waggons (German), was in response to..
'only because people who don't understand the history behind Luther's comments keep bringing it up.'

IOW, I'm trying to understand the history, but the history keeps being whitewashed.
 

prism

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The only roadblock there is is from people who refuse to understand the culture of the mid-1500s and look at the writing with 2024 politically correct eyes. Doesn't work, context is vey necessary.
Culture is a changing thing, the issues from our depraved hearts (including Luther's) is constant regardless of the culture.
 

prism

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Yup.

The only "roadblock" are those who don't know that the word "JEW" in German (and English) can refer to a RACE or a RELIGION. It has been known for 500 years that Luther (like virtually all Christians until very recently) was against the Jewish RELIGION - its denial of Christ, its repudiation of the Gospel (just as he was to the Islamic religion for the same reason). Lutherans have freely admitted this. Often even agreeing with him, those religions are wrong and should be repudiated.

Hitler, seeking to promote his antisemitism (against a RACE, not a RELIGION) simply misapplied and abused what Luther said to make it seem that he was against a RACE when he was not. And since World War II, some have continued Hitler's mistake.



.
This is a quote from the first paragraph of post #6

"It should be kept in my mind that Luther’s later anti-Jewish tracts were written from a position different than current concept of anti-Semitism. Luther was born into a society that was anti-Judaic, but it was not the current anti-Judaic type of society that bases it racism on biological factors. Luther had no objections to integrating converted Jews fully into Christian society. He had nothing against Jews as “Jews” as a race. He had something against their religion because he believed it denied Christ."

It is true
that 'Luther was born into a society that was anti-Judaic' (but his rebirth should have yielded a different heart -1Jn 4:7).
And if Jews (or anyone), are not saved it should have been all the more reason not to spew hatred towards them - 1Cor 9:21-22., especially coming from someone holding to universal atonement

It is NOT true that their religion denied Christ, as a matter of fact, the OT declares Christ, -Heb 1:1,2 (though some Jews deny their own Scriptures -Jn 5:46). Luther was wrong to believe 'their religion' denied Christ.
 
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Lamb

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It is NOT true that their religion denied Christ, as a matter of fact, the OT declares Christ, -Heb 1:1,2 (though some Jews deny their own Scriptures -Jn 5:46). Luther was wrong to believe 'their religion' denied Christ.

The Jews in Luther's day denied Jesus as Christ. That's denying Christ.
 

Josiah

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The Jews in Luther's day denied Jesus as Christ. That's denying Christ.


Right.

Luther was certainly not against the Old Testament. He (like virtually all Christians until very recently) was against religions and people who denied Christ and repudiated the Christian Gospel. And yes, those who embraced the Jewish religion of Luther's day (and those who embrace the Islamic religion of his day) did exactly that. This does not make Hitler correct to proclaim that Luther was against the Jewish RACE (regardless of their religion) - nor does it make it right for people today to continue this falsehood.


.
 

prism

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The Jews in Luther's day denied Jesus as Christ. That's denying Christ.
Josiah kept making the point that it was the 'religion' not the 'race'. My point was that the Jewish 'religion' (OT), pointed to Christ.
 
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