A Lutheran Roadblock

Hadassah

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Hiding in plain sight...From Luther's Works V47 in the preface to "The Jews and Their Lies" is a plausible explanation...

key figures in both the Protestant and the Roman Catholic camps had issued blasts against the Jews. The Strassburg Reformer Martin Bucer published a treatise On the Jews in 1539 which caused him to be regarded by the Jews, for the time being, as their chief antagonist among the Protestants. Compared with Luther’s subsequent proposals, however, Bucer’s program for dealing with the Jews was relatively moderate, though the area of overlap is obvious. No new synagogues were to be built. The Jews were to refrain from “insulting” Christianity, and were to be compelled to attend Christian sermons. They were to abjure whatever the Talmud had added to the Scriptures, to be barred from all business activity, and to be assigned to menial tasks. The Jews, Bucer declared, are implacable foes of the true faith, just like the papists and the Turks.

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 47: The Christian in Society IV (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.; Vol. 47, p. 129). Fortress Press.

Apparently the mindset of the Middle Ages was strife with antisemitic sentiment and Luther was awash in that type of thinking.
I would argue the only antisemitism there is/ was, was against the King of the Jews- Jesus Christ! He was hated by His own kin though in Him is the means to true Jewishness. Which means to be in Praise of God which Judah means and where the word Jew comes from. Add on top of that the un- Christian behavior of those who used that title. And in the "name" of Christianity, too, behaved like ignorant savages. The abuse of those Christ hating Jews does not fall in line with " love your enemies and do good to those who hate you , persecute you and forsake you". The criminals among those people, yes should be locked up for any Blood Libel they were involved in but penializing all who identified as Jew, not nice.
 

Hadassah

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I'm not looking for an apology from Lutherans, it's just that Luther was the main fountain of Lutheran theology. Obviously, none of the Reformers were perfect. Ridley, Melancthon, Calvin, etc.
Well then, it is clear then that Protestantism is not a grafted in branch but an offshoot of the Roman church. No apostle founded it. Only two churches which stand today were directly grafted in by apostles. The Roman ( Catholic) church and the Orthodox. Their founders taught a perfect doctrine. Killing your enemies was not one them.

Unfortunately, Catholic hierarchy holds the golden chalice in its hands -the true Christian practices but also fills the chalice with her abominations. For a fact, Luther and other Reformers participated in blood shed of both wicked and innocent Catholics. They themselves becoming just like the men they initially so hated.

Hate, when its fruit is ripe is as what it hated. "Love your enemies " is no joke then. That does not mean love what they do, it means do not repay evil with evil but with good. Christianity is not for the faint of heart. It requires a big one!
 
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prism

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3. Luther hoped those embracing the Jewish religion would convert to Christianity and became increasingly frustrated when he saw that not happening.
If only Luther was mindful of his own explanation of the Third Article of the Creed concerning the Holy Spirit..

"I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, and sanctified and preserved me in the true faith.

How would he expect any to come to faith especially as a group?
 

prism

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Unfortunately, because of Blood 🩸 Libel sacrifices by Talmudic Jews , of innocent Christian children especially and adults, this certain type who call themselves Jews were made to live in ghettos and their Talmuds were confiscated and burned. When they talk about their "persecutions" for simply being " Jews" they fail to mention why they were expelled from 109 countries. It was because of their Blood Libel sacrifices of the goyim for power. They are disingenuous about the history when they are very familar with this practice. Heck, even someone in here would argue blood sacrifice is for gain no matter who it is, especially concerning the crucifixion of Christ. I won't name names.
I don't think this happened during Luther's time
 

prism

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I would argue the only antisemitism there is/ was, was against the King of the Jews- Jesus Christ! He was hated by His own kin though in Him is the means to true Jewishness. Which means to be in Praise of God which Judah means and where the word Jew comes from. Add on top of that the un- Christian behavior of those who used that title. And in the "name" of Christianity, too, behaved like ignorant savages. The abuse of those Christ hating Jews does not fall in line with " love your enemies and do good to those who hate you , persecute you and forsake you". The criminals among those people, yes should be locked up for any Blood Libel they were involved in but penializing all who identified as Jew, not nice.
Rambling? Your point?
 

Hadassah

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Hadassah

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prism

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If you didn't get it, what makes you think me repeating it will help?
Please. Is this how you dodge my question?
Again,.. 'your point'?
 
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prism

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Then learn your history in an unbias way. 😏
This much history I know...
the Papacy, incorporated under the name of Christ, is the greatest spiritual murder agency in existence.
 

Hadassah

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This much history I know...
the Papacy, incorporated under the name of Christ, is the greatest spiritual murder agency in existence.
Ya mean with Jorge at the helm? No kidding. Been some pretty bad popes. You haven't read anything I write, so I get your assumption of an aha! gotcha moment. Alas, no,! I am of the Universal consensus that Jesus Christ is God I honor nothing and no one who denies His divinity. I dont follow any pope who is a wolf. I follow the Lamb wherever He goes. I know them by their fruits. I simply read the teachings of Christ, if a doctrine contradicts Him and cannot be found in Prima Scriptura, I bounce! 😁
 

Hadassah

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Please. Is this how you dodge my question?
Again,.. 'your point'?
I don't stutter. I said what I said just as you have with your responses about the papacy of the Roman Catholic Church. I agreed, many popes have been wolves in sheep's clothing. St. Paul said in his letter to the Ephesians that wolves would rise up among us after his departure. They would not spare the flock and would bring in destructive heresies. The stewards throughout its history are charged with taking care of the flock among them and to preserve all truth. That is true no matter the time of history. Don't know what else to tell you other than, St. Paul said it would happen. What can you do? One must be faithful to Christ in times of darkness and times of light.
 

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If only Luther was mindful of his own explanation of the Third Article of the Creed concerning the Holy Spirit..

"I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, and sanctified and preserved me in the true faith.

How would he expect any to come to faith especially as a group?

We cannot come to our triune God on our own, but we can most certainly reject Him. That's how Luther is correct. The Jews of today reject the Christ who is the Savior. Luther was upset by that.
 

prism

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We cannot come to our triune God on our own, but we can most certainly reject Him. That's how Luther is correct. The Jews of today reject the Christ who is the Savior. Luther was upset by that.
Perhaps Luther should have trusted the Holy Spirit to do His work through his (Luther's) Law/Gospel motif?
Even Paul was not successful at converting all the Jews because Paul knew and wrote...
Romans 11:25 KJV
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Luther should have heeded those words of Paul, instead of railing against the Jews. His otherwise clear teachings would have cleared the path from Lutheran roadblocks and been a blessing to many.
 

prism

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Ya mean with Jorge at the helm? No kidding. Been some pretty bad popes. You haven't read anything I write, so I get your assumption of an aha! gotcha moment. Alas, no,! I am of the Universal consensus that Jesus Christ is God I honor nothing and no one who denies His divinity. I dont follow any pope who is a wolf. I follow the Lamb wherever He goes. I know them by their fruits. I simply read the teachings of Christ, if a doctrine contradicts Him and cannot be found in Prima Scriptura, I bounce! 😁
Oh I read what you wrote, but I don't understand most of it, especially how it relates to the OP.
 

prism

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I don't stutter. I said what I said just as you have with your responses about the papacy of the Roman Catholic Church. I agreed, many popes have been wolves in sheep's clothing. St. Paul said in his letter to the Ephesians that wolves would rise up among us after his departure. They would not spare the flock and would bring in destructive heresies. The stewards throughout its history are charged with taking care of the flock among them and to preserve all truth. That is true no matter the time of history. Don't know what else to tell you other than, St. Paul said it would happen. What can you do? One must be faithful to Christ in times of darkness and times of light.
Again, this thread is about Luther's attitude toward the Jews, especially his work, "The Jews and their lies" 1543.
(sorry for my off-topic reply-post #29)
 

Lamb

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Perhaps Luther should have trusted the Holy Spirit to do His work through his (Luther's) Law/Gospel motif?
Even Paul was not successful at converting all the Jews because Paul knew and wrote...
Romans 11:25 KJV
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Luther should have heeded those words of Paul, instead of railing against the Jews. His otherwise clear teachings would have cleared the path from Lutheran roadblocks and been a blessing to many.

You misunderstand the Law Gospel concept.

For those who are obstinate or stuck in their sin (and in the case of the Jews, it's unbelief in Jesus as Savior), they deserve law. For those who are in fear, they need Gospel.
 

Hadassah

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Again, this thread is about Luther's attitude toward the Jews, especially his work, "The Jews and their lies" 1543.
(sorry for my off-topic reply-post #29)
Not a problem. I myself will try to stay on topic. Thanks 😊
 

prism

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You misunderstand the Law Gospel concept.

For those who are obstinate or stuck in their sin (and in the case of the Jews, it's unbelief in Jesus as Savior), they deserve law. For those who are in fear, they need Gospel.
So is Rom 11:25 law or gospel for Israel? God's Word should trump our doctrinal devices (in this case,..of law and gospel)..

Romans 11:25 LSB
For I do not want you, brothers, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
 

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So is Rom 11:25 law or gospel for Israel? God's Word should trump our doctrinal devices (in this case,..of law and gospel)..

Romans 11:25 LSB
For I do not want you, brothers, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

Are you trying to let a verse trump salvation that is "by grace through faith"? I mean, that's what Paul had just gotten done preaching about, Christ crucified.

Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
 

prism

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Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Are you trying to let a verse trump salvation that is "by grace through faith"? I mean, that's what Paul had just gotten done preaching about, Christ crucified.

Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:23,25 KJV
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, (v.23) shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It appears the reason they are in unbelief is due to the inflicted blindness (v25) explained by Paul as a mystery.

I'm sure Luther was aware of that during his tirade.
 
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