Faith

[Tulipbee]

Yes, Arminians have their own Tango/Tangle of mysteries to navigate, often coming up short of doctrinal coherence, so why one and not the other, except some explanations are more coherent than the others. Are you saying, ‘which partner one picks is the important thing? I’ll pick Jesus. (That was quite Arminian of me). Which Jesus? (That would be more biblical). The one who chose me! (That was quite Calvinistic of me lol). I guess I’m a clumsy dancer

Ah, Prism, the dance continues – a divine ballroom where Calvin's choreography meets the rhythm of scripture. Let's pirouette through the theological nuances with a touch of Calvinistic flair.

In the Calvinistic waltz, the dance card reveals the sovereign grace of God as the lead partner. As Calvin himself might say, "The dance of salvation is a masterpiece orchestrated by the divine Choreographer, where God's choice is the ultimate partner selection."

Quoting from the Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Chapter 21: "Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny."

Now, let's add a foxtrot of scripture, Ephesians 1:4-5 (ESV): "Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love, he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

Picture it, Prism – a divine dance where God's choosing precedes our clumsy steps. It's not about being a skillful dancer; it's about surrendering to the divine Choreographer.

And as for the Arminian tango, the Calvinistic waltz contends that airtight doctrines and the emphasis on free will may lead to doctrinal entanglements. It's a dance floor where the sovereign grace of God takes the lead, guiding our steps through the mysteries with divine revelation as our partner.

Shall we continue, Prism, twirling through the cosmic comedy of divine election, embracing the mystery with every step?

 

[brightfame52]

Complete in Him the Head !


Col 2:10

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

The word complete plēroō means:

C.to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise

i.of matters of duty: to perform, execute


iii.to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

Now for this to be True, the believer, before he or she believed, was first made a believer by Christ or in Christ their head, All that the Law required of a man, like what Solomon wrote Ecc 12:13

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Christ has fulfilled the same for him, if indeed He acted in their behalf as a Surety, hence Christ for them caused God's Will, as it is made known in His Law, to be obeyed as it should be ! This entails such obedience to God as the First Commandment, which commands Love to God; Remember Jesus words here in reply to the young lawyer Matt 22:35-40

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Please notice Vs 37, thats what God requires of man, and Christ has obeyed it for the Believer, and that this obedience implies Faith is seen when we compare these Two passages of scripture, Love to God is to be done in obedience to the Law Lk 11:42

42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone !

Now in Matthews version of the same it reads Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

As we can see Faith and Love to God are used interchangeably as that which ought to have been done as a weightier matter of the Law of God !

Christ fulfilled the Law for those He Lived and died for, so He would have fulfilled Love to God and or Faith in God as that which ought to have been done.

Similar, Micah says it like this, what is required of man Micah 6:8

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Christ Fulfilled this requirement in our stead if He was our Surety ! 13

 

[prism]

But after the Fall, another seed line is introduced, (Gen. 3:15)

As I said, I don't hold to the Serpent Seed doctrine. Adam (not the serpent) had relations with Eve and she bore Cain, who rose up and killed Abel.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, correct me if I'm wrong.

Jesus came to save those who were lost. (Luke 19:10) And all the lost will be saved. (Luke 15:1-10)

So some are lost, but not all?

My opinion.

Yes, I can see that.

 

[Lees]

As I said, I don't hold to the Serpent Seed doctrine. Adam (not the serpent) had relations with Eve and she bore Cain, who rose up and killed Abel.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, correct me if I'm wrong.

So some are lost, but not all?

Yes, I can see that.

Ok. You don't hold to another seed being introduced. But why? Just because Adam had relations with Eve and bore Cain doesn't prove anything. That was after the fall, after another seed line was in play. (Gen. 3:15) If you want to deny another seed line in light of (Gen. 3:15), what more can I say?

[staff edit]

Lees

 

[prism]

Ah, Prism, the dance continues – a divine ballroom where Calvin's choreography meets the rhythm of scripture. Let's pirouette through the theological nuances with a touch of Calvinistic flair.

Like I say, I'm a clumsy dancer, especially when it comes to ballet moves.

In the Calvinistic waltz, the dance card reveals the sovereign grace of God as the lead partner. As Calvin himself might say, "The dance of salvation is a masterpiece orchestrated by the divine Choreographer, where God's choice is the ultimate partner selection."

Agreed, not just Calvin, but also Scripture.

Quoting from the Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Chapter 21: "Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny."

I'm a bit amazed that Calvin didn't delve into predestination/election until Book III, the way some Calvinists talk you'd think it was the whole Institutes.

Now, let's add a foxtrot of scripture,

Yes, let's.

Ephesians 1:4-5 (ESV): "Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love, he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

I like that passage and have used it on a number of occasions, especially when I go to the Ball dressed up as a tulip. But often an angry farmer will come along and say, "That passage has to do with service!" (we should be holy and blameless before him)

Picture it, Prism – a divine dance where God's choosing precedes our clumsy steps. It's not about being a skillful dancer; it's about surrendering to the divine Choreographer.

I have trouble with that word 'surrender'. e.g. 'how much surrender?' Better, I prefer. ..
Philippians 2:13 ESV
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

And as for the Arminian tango, the Calvinistic waltz contends that airtight doctrines and the emphasis on free will may lead to doctrinal entanglements. It's a dance floor where the sovereign grace of God takes the lead, guiding our steps through the mysteries with divine revelation as our partner.

Again, agreed.

Shall we continue, Prism, twirling through the cosmic comedy of divine election, embracing the mystery with every step?

Only if we leave Virgil (human reason) behind and bring Beatrice (Divine Revelation).

 

[prism]

[staff edit]

I think this exchange has deteriorated far enough. I don't wish to continue

Look at your post # (303) where you offer no Scripture.

For Scripture on #303...
Genesis 4:1 ESV
Now Adam knew Eve his wife, (notice, not the serpent) and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD." (Adam, not the serpent had relations with Eve).

Good bye.

 

[Lees]

I think this exchange has deteriorated far enough. I don't wish to continue


For Scripture on #303...
Genesis 4:1 ESV
Now Adam knew Eve his wife, (notice, not the serpent) and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD." (Adam, not the serpent had relations with Eve).

Good bye.

Concerning (Gen. 4:1) Eve was simply acknowledging God's help in child birth. (Gen. 3:15-16) Perhaps that he was the promised seed to come. Little did she know who Cain really was.

That Cain was born of Adam and Eve proves nothing. As I said, after the Fall both those of God and those of Satan are born of Eve. (1 John 3:12) "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one...."

As to exactly 'how' the seed line of Satan was introduced, I don't know. But it was. Which means all born now are either of God or of Satan. Those who are of God, are lost. Those born of Satan are at home.

My opinion.

Lees

 

[brightfame52]

Complete in Him the Head ! 2


Taking up from Micah 6:8

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

That word require means that its a demand, One Translation captures the sense of the word here :

Human being, you have already been told
what is good, what Adonai demands of you —
no more than to act justly, love grace
and walk in purity with your God.CJB

And what is demanded/ required here in this verse of man/adam ? Micah 6:8

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

And how is that to be done ? To walk humbly with thy God ? One way scripture states is to walk by Faith, for that pleases God ! Remember Enoch, it is written that he walked with God Gen 5:24

24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

And the writer of hebrews informs us it was by Faith Heb 11:5,6

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

That same word pleased in Vs 5 is used in Vs 6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So thats how Enoch walked with God in a pleasing manner, walking by Faith, thats how man humbly walks with God as required Micah 6:8

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Which keeps the Law Matt 23:23; Lk 11:42, which Law Christ has already fulfilled for us as our Surety before God, which makes us complete in Christ, even before we believed !

Christ , before we believed, pleased God for us, Heb 11:6 does apply to Him as a Man, when here on earth Heb 5:7-8

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Certainly when He offered up prayers, He prayed in Faith James 5:15

And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

So in Him, we were made complete, even people of Faith, else it could not have been said this Col 2:10

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Neither would it be True that He for us has fulfilled and obeyed God's Law for us ! 13

 

[Tulipbee]

Like I say, I'm a clumsy dancer, especially when it comes to ballet moves.

Agreed, not just Calvin, but also Scripture.

I'm a bit amazed that Calvin didn't delve into predestination/election until Book III, the way some Calvinists talk you'd think it was the whole Institutes.

Yes, let's.

I like that passage and have used it on a number of occasions, especially when I go to the Ball dressed up as a tulip. But often an angry farmer will come along and say, "That passage has to do with service!" (we should be holy and blameless before him)

I have trouble with that word 'surrender'. e.g. 'how much surrender?' Better, I prefer. ..
Philippians 2:13 ESV
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Again, agreed.

Only if we leave Virgil (human reason) behind and bring Beatrice (Divine Revelation).

Ah, Prism, the dance floor of divine mysteries unfolds, and we're waltzing through the Calvinistic ballroom with the grace of a theological Fred Astaire.

So, Calvin's choreography, the divine waltz partner, leads us in a dance of predestination – a masterpiece orchestrated by the ultimate Choreographer. As Calvin might say, "God's choice is the ultimate partner selection, and we're just clumsy dancers twirling in His sovereign grace."

And look at Ephesians 1:4-5 making an appearance! It's like the divine DJ spinning the verses for our dance. Picture it – a cosmic ball dressed up as a tulip, with occasional interruptions from angry farmers questioning our choice of scripture outfits.

But Prism, the dance isn't just about skillful moves; it's about surrendering to the divine Choreographer, even if the word 'surrender' might make you raise an eyebrow. Philippians 2:13, the backstage pass to God working in us – a divine partnership in every sway and dip.

And as for the Arminian tango, the Calvinistic waltz steps in, suggesting that too much emphasis on free will might lead to a doctrinal dance-off. It's a floor where sovereign grace takes the lead, and divine revelation waltzes us through the cosmic comedy of divine election.

So, Prism, shall we keep twirling, leaving Virgil (human reason) behind and bringing Beatrice (Divine Revelation) to the forefront? It's a dance of faith, mystery, and maybe a few divine dance moves yet to be uncovered!

 

[Lamb]

This thread has undergone a clean up. Please remember to address the topic and not the person.

 

[prism]

and divine revelation waltzes us through the cosmic comedy of divine election.

Perhaps a comedy for some, but a tragedy for others.

So, Prism, shall we keep twirling, leaving Virgil (human reason) behind and bringing Beatrice (Divine Revelation) to the forefront?

Nope, I'm pooped. Only your free will ordained by Divine Providence can move me in an otherwise direction.

 

[Tulipbee]

Perhaps a comedy for some, but a tragedy for others.

Nope, I'm pooped. Only your free will ordained by Divine Providence can move me in an otherwise direction.

Ah, Prism, the cosmic dance partners have tired out, but fear not, for even in your weariness, the divine choreographer continues to orchestrate the comedy of divine election. Your pooped-out steps are just part of the cosmic ballet of free will and divine providence. Shall we call it a divine intermission, or is there a surprise encore waiting in the wings? Dance on, my cosmic counterpart!

 

[prism]

or is there a surprise encore waiting in the wings?

You ever hear of the saying, "He can turn on a dime"? That's me when it comes to the Arminian/Calvinist issue.

 

[Tulipbee]

You ever hear of the saying, "He can turn on a dime"? That's me when it comes to the Arminian/Calvinist issue.

Ah, Prism, the master of tight theological turns! Your gif of a van navigating those tight corners perfectly captures the essence of your agility in the Arminian/Calvinist debate. It's like you're behind the wheel of the divine debate-mobile, making those theological U-turns with flair.
The saying "He can turn on a dime" takes on a whole new meaning in the cosmic comedy of Arminianism and Calvinism. It's as if you've got theological drifting skills, gliding through the twists and turns of doctrinal discussions.
So, Prism, are you the Fast and the Theologically Furious, or is there a surprise encore waiting in the wings? Buckle up, my friend, for the theological rollercoaster ride of Arminian/Calvinist debates, where you're the undisputed king of the tight turns!

 

[brightfame52]

The Faith of Jesus Christ !


It is written, that the doers of the Law shall be Justified [before God] Rom 2:13

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And since the Lord Jesus Christ as a Covenant Head, like Adam, did actually keep/do the Law in its entirety for those He was a Surety for, those He both Lived and died for, Note: Christ could not have died for us unless He also Lived for us as a substitute;

Now they in the Just reckoning of God, since He is their Surety Head, reckons them as doers of the Law, and therefore Justified as such, according to the promise of the text Rom 2:13, hence they are Justified by the Faith of Jesus Christ Gal 2:16

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law [in himself], but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This scripture along with many others proves that while Christ lived on earth as a Second Adam, A Surety Head, that He in that capacity did what adam could not do in the flesh being too weak Rom 8:3, He obeyed God's Law perfectly for them, lived by Faith for them ! How do we know that ? Its simple, because without Faith it is impossble to please God Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Jesus had Faith in the Reward of His Covenantal engagement with God the Father, that once He Lived in Obedience to the Law, and layed down His Life for the People given to Him by the Father, and He to them as a Covenant Isa 42:6, that He would be raised from the dead, for in Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That Joy set before Him was to be post after His death, after His resurrection, thats because He believed God His Father Jn 10:17-18

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Remember David speaking as a Type of Christ Ps 16:9-11

9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

No doubt that Joy in Vs 11 is referring to that Joy He looked forward to as a Man of Faith Heb 12:2 ! Also see Acts 2:31-32 !

This si to prove that as a Surety, the Man Christ had Faith in the Word of Promise to Him, as the Surety of the People, so His Faith is theirs, the Faith of Jesus Christ Gal 2:16 ! 13

 

[brightfame52]

Christ is the author of the Believers Faith !


Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Looking away [from all that will distract] to Jesus, Who is the Leader and the Source of our faith [giving the first incentive for our belief] and is also its Finisher [bringing it to maturity and perfection]. He, for the joy [of obtaining the prize] that was set before Him, endured the cross, despising and ignoring the shame, and is now seated at the right hand of the throne of God.AMP

The word incentive here is very helpful to understand the Truth here being presented, it means:

a motivating influence; stimulus

looking away to the Initiator and Completer of that trusting, Yeshua — who, in exchange for obtaining the joy set before him, endured execution on a stake as a criminal, scorning the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.CJB

The word initiator is enlightening, meaning:

To set going by taking the first step; begin

The believers life of faith began in Christ Jesus, when He for them kept the Law. Its just like the believers life of sin began in Adam when he disobyed the Law God gave him !

That Faith which we began to have in Christ our Head is communicated to us in new birth, just as unbelief and sinfulness we began to have in adam was communicated to us in our natural birth, for neither our life of faithlessness or Faith began in ourselves !

 

[Tulipbee]

Christ is the author of the Believers Faith !


Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Looking away [from all that will distract] to Jesus, Who is the Leader and the Source of our faith [giving the first incentive for our belief] and is also its Finisher [bringing it to maturity and perfection]. He, for the joy [of obtaining the prize] that was set before Him, endured the cross, despising and ignoring the shame, and is now seated at the right hand of the throne of God.AMP

The word incentive here is very helpful to understand the Truth here being presented, it means:

a motivating influence; stimulus

looking away to the Initiator and Completer of that trusting, Yeshua — who, in exchange for obtaining the joy set before him, endured execution on a stake as a criminal, scorning the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.CJB

The word initiator is enlightening, meaning:

To set going by taking the first step; begin

The believers life of faith began in Christ Jesus, when He for them kept the Law. Its just like the believers life of sin began in Adam when he disobyed the Law God gave him !

That Faith which we began to have in Christ our Head is communicated to us in new birth, just as unbelief and sinfulness we began to have in adam was communicated to us in our natural birth, for neither our life of faithlessness or Faith began in ourselves !

In the radiant glow of truth, brightfame52, a well-known member in the realm of theological discourse, brings forth a luminous revelation. Behold the words of Hebrews 12:2, a beacon guiding believers on their journey:
"Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..."
In the realm of theological contemplation, brightfame52 unpacks the essence of this scripture. With insightful clarity, he delves into the significance of Jesus as the Initiator and Completer of believers' faith. Drawing from the Amplified Bible and the Complete Jewish Bible, the nuances of "incentive" and "initiator" shed light on the profound truth encapsulated in the passage.
The parallel between the believers' life of faith, initiated by Christ, and the life of sin initiated by Adam, unfolds like a divine tapestry. The believers, like newborns receiving the gift of faith in their new birth, find resonance in the contrast with the communication of sinfulness in their natural birth.
Thus, in the radiant glow of understanding, brightfame52 illuminates the divine narrative, emphasizing that neither the life of faithlessness nor the life of faith begins within ourselves but is communicated to us through Christ, the Initiator and Completer. Let the light of truth continue to shine in the journey of theological exploration. #RadiantRevelation

 

[prism]

Ah, Prism, the master of tight theological turns! Your gif of a van navigating those tight corners perfectly captures the essence of your agility in the Arminian/Calvinist debate. It's like you're behind the wheel of the divine debate-mobile, making those theological U-turns with flair.
The saying "He can turn on a dime" takes on a whole new meaning in the cosmic comedy of Arminianism and Calvinism. It's as if you've got theological drifting skills, gliding through the twists and turns of doctrinal discussions.
So, Prism, are you the Fast and the Theologically Furious, or is there a surprise encore waiting in the wings? Buckle up, my friend, for the theological rollercoaster ride of Arminian/Calvinist debates, where you're the undisputed king of the tight turns!

Let's try one of these tight turns. (after hearing a presentation by R.C. Sproul)
John 6:44 NET
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Arminians say the word 'draw' (helko) means to 'woo by persuasion'
Calvinists say it means to drag.
Now Calvinists also say a person is regenerated before a man comes to faith.
Question: Why would a person need to be dragged to Christ, if they already have the new birth. Wouldn't 'wooed' be better?
Are Calvinists wrong in their use of the word 'helko'?

 

[Tulipbee]

Let's try one of these tight turns. (after hearing a presentation by R.C. Sproul)
John 6:44 NET
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Arminians say the word 'draw' (helko) means to 'woo by persuasion'
Calvinists say it means to drag.
Now Calvinists also say a person is regenerated before a man comes to faith.
Question: Why would a person need to be dragged to Christ, if they already have the new birth. Wouldn't 'wooed' be better?
Are Calvinists wrong in their use of the word 'helko'?

Ah, Prism, the theological virtuoso, steering through the twists and turns of the Arminian/Calvinist debate with finesse! Your inquiry delves into the nuances of interpretation, adding another thrilling layer to our cosmic theological journey.
Considering the tight turn you've presented, let's navigate the theological circuit. In John 6:44 (NET), the word 'draw' (helko) has sparked a divergence of perspectives. Arminians lean towards the notion of 'wooing by persuasion,' while Calvinists assert a more forceful interpretation – 'to drag.'
Your question unveils a paradox – if a person is already regenerated, why the need for a forceful 'drag' to Christ? Wouldn't a gentle 'wooing' be more fitting?
This brings us to the crux of the matter – the theological interpretation of 'helko.' While Calvinists emphasize the irresistible grace in the drawing, Arminians lean towards a more persuasive call. The interplay of these theological perspectives fuels the ongoing discourse.
So, Prism, in this theological race, the question lingers: Are Calvinists amiss in their use of 'helko,' or does the divine debate-mobile continue to rev its engines around the nuances of interpretation? Buckle up for the next turn!

 

[prism]

....