Regeneration acc. to Lutherans?

[prism]

Seeing there are many Lutherans on this Forum and are not the type to bite my head off for asking stupid questions, I was wondering "what change takes place to a person in regeneration according to Lutherans?

 

[Lamb]

"Regeneration describes the work of the Holy Spirit in giving new life—faith—to people who were spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:4-5.) Regeneration speaks of being born again (John 3:3-6; 1 Peter 1:23)."

Faith and regeneration

Faith and regeneration

wels.net

 

[prism]

Yes, but what actual change should take place in the person's life...that may be seen by others?

 

[prism]

@Josiah ,@Lamb Here are some of the things I was wondering about the Lutheran view of the change that occurs in regeneration..

2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ephesians 2:2-3 KJV
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Jeremiah 31:33 KJV
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

With a new heart, won't they have new desires, desiring what God desires?

 

[Lamb]

@Josiah ,@Lamb Here are some of the things I was wondering about the Lutheran view of the change that occurs in regeneration..

2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ephesians 2:2-3 KJV
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Jeremiah 31:33 KJV
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

With a new heart, won't they have new desires, desiring what God desires?

Yes, we become the New Adam, but also remember that we still live in these sinful bodies and when you look at our actions, you might get a glimpse of the new man, but you also might see that we sin.

 

[prism]

Yes, we become the New Adam, but also remember that we still live in these sinful bodies and when you look at our actions, you might get a glimpse of the new man, but you also might see that we sin.

Right, we are simultaneously sinner and righteous, I get that, but I’m still curious as to how Lutherans see the effects of the new birth on an individual, or do they believe there isn’t any necessary change ever?

 

[Lamb]

Right, we are simultaneously sinner and righteous, I get that, but I’m still curious as to how Lutherans see the effects of the new birth on an individual, or do they believe there isn’t any necessary change ever?

Of course there is change, and that's the Holy Spirit's doing.

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength, believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him. But the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified me and kept me in the true faith.

 

[prism]

Of course there is change, and that's the Holy Spirit's doing.

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength, believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him. But the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified me and kept me in the true faith.

Yes,I'm familiar with that Luther quote (and like it) but I am asking what are some examples of evidences that a person has received the new birth according to Lutheran teaching?

 

[Lamb]

Yes,I'm familiar with that Luther quote (and like it) but I am asking what are some examples of evidences that a person has received the new birth according to Lutheran teaching?

Do you mean, how can we see that a person is a Christian? Because that's what it stems down to. The problem is that we still have the sinful human being to deal with, so even if you were to see glimpses of that person doing something "good", you might catch him on a bad day and he's now doing something sinful. Does that make him a non-Christian? No.

But we also know that non-Christians can do things we perceive as "good", but aren't good in according to God's eyes because they lack faith.

So my point is, why are you asking for evidence of things when you won't be able to tell who is a Christian and who isn't. And if you're asking because you want to see evidence in yourself, then you should look to our triune God who justified you and is sanctifying you.

 

[prism]

Do you mean, how can we see that a person is a Christian? Because that's what it stems down to. The problem is that we still have the sinful human being to deal with, so even if you were to see glimpses of that person doing something "good", you might catch him on a bad day and he's now doing something sinful. Does that make him a non-Christian? No.

But we also know that non-Christians can do things we perceive as "good", but aren't good in according to God's eyes because they lack faith.

So my point is, why are you asking for evidence of things when you won't be able to tell who is a Christian and who isn't. And if you're asking because you want to see evidence in yourself, then you should look to our triune God who justified you and is sanctifying you.

I'm speaking in personal terms, not in order to judge others, and yes we 'have our days', but in general, won't there be a desire to learn of God, to worship Him in spirit and truth, to please Him, a hatred of our former lifestyle (drugs witchcraft, drinking, theft etc.),..or do we continue loving and desiring our former way of life?
Or is all this too pietistic for 'confessional Lutheranism'?

 

[Lamb]

I'm speaking in personal terms, not in order to judge others, and yes we 'have our days', but in general, won't there be a desire to learn of God, to worship Him in spirit and truth, to please Him, a hatred of our former lifestyle (drugs witchcraft, drinking, theft etc.),..or do we continue loving and desiring our former way of life?
Or is all this too pietistic for 'confessional Lutheranism'?

The regenerated man pleases God because of Christ. We have our sins forgiven (by grace through faith because of Jesus Savior). When God looks at us, He sees His Son with whom He is pleased.

The Holy Spirit is sanctifying us daily. How do we know that? Because it's a promise to us.

What do we see in the regenerated man? God is active in our lives, but we also see our sinful selves interfering. The Holy Spirit gives us the desire to grow in His Word. Our sinful self is too busy to read our bible or go to church. The Holy Spirit gives us a desire to love God and our neighbor. Our sinful self might curse at God and our neighbor.

There is always going to be that push and pull because of our sin until we die or until He returns for Judgment Day. We don't look to ourselves to see if God is doing anything. We look to the Savior and know that He hasn't abandoned us. We are saved because of Him and we will be saved when we die or He returns.

 

[Lees]

I'm not Lutheran, but these verses have always helped me. For what it's worth.

I find it interesting, and relieving, that Paul, as he grew in the Lord, found himself worse and worse.

In (1 Cor. 15:9), he is the 'least of the apostles'.

In (Eph. 3:8), he is 'less than the least of all saints'.

Then at the end of his life in (1 Tim. 1:15) he is the chief of all sinners.

Would any of the saints who knew Paul in those days, have said such a thing about him? I doubt it. On the outside, Paul was blameless. (Philippians 3:4-6)

But Paul knew better. He was a great sinner, if not the worst...according to him.

Lees

 

[prism]

There is always going to be that push and pull because of our sin until we die or until He returns for Judgment Day. We don't look to ourselves to see if God is doing anything. We look to the Savior and know that He hasn't abandoned us. We are saved because of Him and we will be saved when we die or He returns.

Thank you for your view.
Should there be any 'growth' or 'progress' in the strengthening of ones faith as we see the progression in Abraham's life,
or is it a forever push/pull struggle until then?

 

[Lamb]

Thank you for your view.
Should there be any 'growth' or 'progress' in the strengthening of ones faith as we see the progression in Abraham's life,
or is it a forever push/pull struggle until then?

There is no set answer. Some people fall away from faith and some are on their way to reject the faith. Lutherans don't believe in Once Saved Always Saved, and we believe it's biblical that mankind can reject God and turn away from faith.

There are most likely individuals who see constant growth. There might be some who teeter totter. And then there might be some who are stagnant.

We also have to keep in mind that God's timing on things is also not our timing.

 

[Lamb]

I'm not Lutheran, but these verses have always helped me. For what it's worth.

I find it interesting, and relieving, that Paul, as he grew in the Lord, found himself worse and worse.

In (1 Cor. 15:9), he is the 'least of the apostles'.

In (Eph. 3:8), he is 'less than the least of all saints'.

Then at the end of his life in (1 Tim. 1:15) he is the chief of all sinners.

Would any of the saints who knew Paul in those days, have said such a thing about him? I doubt it. On the outside, Paul was blameless. (Philippians 3:4-6)

But Paul knew better. He was a great sinner, if not the worst...according to him.

Lees

This is similar to what a previous pastor said when a parishioner said in a bible study class that he could see himself getting better and better as he got older. The pastor replied that the older he got, the more he could see how sinful he was.

 

[Lees]

This is similar to what a previous pastor said when a parishioner said in a bible study class that he could see himself getting better and better as he got older. The pastor replied that the older he got, the more he could see how sinful he was.

How true it is.

Lees

 

[prism]

The pastor replied that the older he got, the more he could see how sinful he was.

Wouldn't that be part of the growth process?

 

[Lamb]

Wouldn't that be part of the growth process?

What do you mean by "growth process"? I'm trying to see where you're attempting to lead this conversation.

The "Law" does not regenerate. 2 Corinthians 3:6

 

[prism]

@Lamb had said, "What do you mean by "growth process"? I'm trying to see where you're attempting to lead this conversation.

The "Law" does not regenerate. 2 Corinthians 3:6

You had said earlier, "The pastor replied that the older he got, the more he could see how sinful he was."
I asked, "Wouldn't that be part of the growth process?"

Isn't our growth in Christ sort of a process of God strengthening our faith by showing us our failures through trials and experience so that we are drawn to Christ in full dependency, just as Abraham was perfected over time from Ur to Moriah? Paul also stated increasingly how sinful he was as he grew in faith.

The law regenerate? Naww, I never brought that up, and would not think that.

 

[Lamb]

You had said earlier, "The pastor replied that the older he got, the more he could see how sinful he was."
I asked, "Wouldn't that be part of the growth process?"

Isn't our growth in Christ sort of a process of God strengthening our faith by showing us our failures through trials and experience so that we are drawn to Christ in full dependency, just as Abraham was perfected over time from Ur to Moriah? Paul also stated increasingly how sinful he was as he grew in faith.

The law regenerate? Naww, I never brought that up, and would not think that.

Regeneration can also be defined as conversion, so perhaps this will help:

Christian Cyclopedia

(Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Christian Cyclopedia)

cyclopedia.lcms.org