“Stay out of marriage”

Jazzy

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If the government were to completely “stay out of marriage” as some people want, what would be the real world impact of this?
 

Messy3

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If the government were to completely “stay out of marriage” as some people want, what would be the real world impact of this?
Stay out of marriage? Hadn't heard that one. May be good for some whose ex want to steal the kids for money, but it's bad for the ones who had the ex leave and now not paying either and then it's not a marriage if it's not legal, so it's easier to leave if you have enough of it. Just like dating.
 

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If the government were to completely “stay out of marriage” as some people want, what would be the real world impact of this?

Well, we already have some psychos wanting to marry animals, so that would be happening.
 

tango

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Well, we already have some psychos wanting to marry animals, so that would be happening.

I guess an obvious question would be what difference it makes if someone ends up being able to marry their cat. I'm not sure why you'd want to marry an animal, but I'm also not sure what difference it makes to anyone else.

It would be interesting to figure out how a cow or a sheep would communicate "not tonight, I have a headache". And it would be curious to see if the hotel with the honeymoon suite would consider the animal member of the partnership to be a customer or, well, an animal. I wouldn't want to have to clear up having farm animals honeymooning couples of different species in a hotel room.
 
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Josiah

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If the government were to completely “stay out of marriage” as some people want,


I'm not sure what you are referring to....

There are some who believe the secular/civil state should relate to marriage only as a civil union, a personal corporation. Such would be entered into by simply signing a prescribed contract. The state then could regulate such any way it wants. This view tends to hold that marriage is a Sacrament and an issue between God and the man, not a civil/secular issue. In this, the secular/civil state would have nothing to do with weddings or marriages - that would be a religious/personal/family issue. But LEGALLY, as in front of the government say for tax purposes, the issue would be if they are a personal corporation, a civil union. Some think this would untangle the government from this - as it was for thousands of years.


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I think part of the problem is that "marriage" refers to both - a sacred covenant between man and wife made before God, and a secular contract regulated and approved by the secular government where two individuals accept secular commitments in exchange for secular benefits.

From a purely secular perspective it's hard to see why a marriage shouldn't be between two people of the same sex, or between three or more people and the like. From a purely secular perspective the only real reason why a marriage shouldn't be between people who are closely related is the assumption that a marriage will involve some kind of sexual activity that would remain prohibited.

Many years ago, when the UK allowed civil partnerships but not gay marriage, a story made the news. The gist of it was that two elderly sisters, neither of whom had ever married, lived together in the home they shared. Both knew that when one died the other would be rendered homeless because they would have to sell the house to pay inheritance taxes. Had they not been sisters they could have entered into a civil partnership, which would have allowed tax-free inheritance from one to the other. But since they were related that wasn't an option. From a purely secular perspective, given that prohibitions on sexual activity between closely related people appears to be primarily aimed at preventing genetic issues caused by inbreeding, it's hard to see why two sisters shouldn't be allowed to enter into a civil partnership and thereby gain the same benefits as a lesbian couple. Not that it's any of our business but it's probably safe to assume that two elderly sisters won't be doing anything raunchy in the bedroom, and even if they were it's not like there would be any genetic complications caused by unexpected offspring.

As to whether any given relationship counts as a marriage before God, we don't get to decide that whatever we might like to think about "being up to date" and "moving with the times" and whatever other terms get thrown around as a way to act as if everything new is somehow superior.
 

Josiah

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I think part of the problem is that "marriage" refers to both - a sacred covenant between man and wife made before God, and a secular contract regulated and approved by the secular government where two individuals accept secular commitments in exchange for secular benefit


And some hold THAT'S the problem....

As I understand it, the secular/civil government had NOTHING to do with marriage until the problem of inheritance arose. The Church kept excellent records of marriage and divorce within the diocese but often not nationally, and sometimes there were disputes. SO, the secular/civil state began to keep national records based on licenses and official actions - but still acknowledged that these were religious actions (thus typically REQUIRING a rite, a ceremony, religious or at least religious in appearance - there must be a civil license AND a rite, a ceremony. Weird. Odd.


It kind of makes sense to separate the two. To return marriage and divorce to the church and family. IF a couple wants to be MARRIED, they to to a church or even just to a family group - just as it was for thousands and thousands of years. This for religious and social reasons. They'd be MARRIED in the eyes of the Church (or their families) - but MARRIAGE per se being recognized ONLY by the Church and Family. And divorce also an action of the Church and/or Family. The secular/civil STATE (for legal and economic reasons) can apply "personal corporations" (a legal contract already in existence everywhere) perhaps with certain legal and economic factors. Yes, if a secular government wants to permit such between female volleyball players, it could. But this is not MARRIAGE, it's a CIVIL UNION. It has nothing to do with religion or family, it has to do with the law. They have become a corporation. It's formation and dissolution would be a matter of law. Thus, one MIGHT be married but not be a civil union... and one might be in a civil union but not married.


Would this be a good thing? I'm not sure. But it would eliminate the current confusion of church and state that we now see.




Many years ago, when the UK allowed civil partnerships but not gay marriage, a story made the news. The gist of it was that two elderly sisters, neither of whom had ever married, lived together in the home they shared. Both knew that when one died the other would be rendered homeless because they would have to sell the house to pay inheritance taxes. Had they not been sisters they could have entered into a civil partnership, which would have allowed tax-free inheritance from one to the other. But since they were related that wasn't an option. From a purely secular perspective, given that prohibitions on sexual activity between closely related people appears to be primarily aimed at preventing genetic issues caused by inbreeding, it's hard to see why two sisters shouldn't be allowed to enter into a civil partnership and thereby gain the same benefits as a lesbian couple. Not that it's any of our business but it's probably safe to assume that two elderly sisters won't be doing anything raunchy in the bedroom, and even if they were it's not like there would be any genetic complications caused by unexpected offspring.


In the People's Republic of California, we had the exact same debate some years ago. There was a proposition up for election that would allow "same sex marriage." Those AGAINST this were NOT against civil unions, they were NOT against persons of the same gender having the same legal and economic rights and privileges of marriage, they were against this being MARRIAGE. Those in favor of this make it crystal clear the issu3e for them was NOT equality or rights or privileges, it was entirely about respect, honor, recognition... accepting them as fully MARRIED in every sense. They won.




.
 

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And some hold THAT'S the problem....

As I understand it, the secular/civil government had NOTHING to do with marriage until the problem of inheritance arose.

I suspect the problem was more specifically inheritance tax rather than purely inheritance. The government seldom misses a chance to help itself to anything it can lay its hands on, while acting as if people wanting to keep what is theirs are somehow selfish.

The Church kept excellent records of marriage and divorce within the diocese but often not nationally, and sometimes there were disputes. SO, the secular/civil state began to keep national records based on licenses and official actions - but still acknowledged that these were religious actions (thus typically REQUIRING a rite, a ceremony, religious or at least religious in appearance - there must be a civil license AND a rite, a ceremony. Weird. Odd.


It kind of makes sense to separate the two. To return marriage and divorce to the church and family. IF a couple wants to be MARRIED, they to to a church or even just to a family group - just as it was for thousands and thousands of years. This for religious and social reasons. They'd be MARRIED in the eyes of the Church (or their families) - but MARRIAGE per se being recognized ONLY by the Church and Family. And divorce also an action of the Church and/or Family. The secular/civil STATE (for legal and economic reasons) can apply "personal corporations" (a legal contract already in existence everywhere) perhaps with certain legal and economic factors. Yes, if a secular government wants to permit such between female volleyball players, it could. But this is not MARRIAGE, it's a CIVIL UNION. It has nothing to do with religion or family, it has to do with the law. They have become a corporation. It's formation and dissolution would be a matter of law. Thus, one MIGHT be married but not be a civil union... and one might be in a civil union but not married.


Would this be a good thing? I'm not sure. But it would eliminate the current confusion of church and state that we now see.

I can't help wondering if we should shift responsibility for legal secular marriages to the state and change things such that a religious ceremony has no legal standing at all. It would mean people who wanted a grand ceremony could still have one, but they'd need to have a short legal ceremony around the same time for the marriage to be recognized by the state.

That would also mean that, since the religious ceremony had no legal standing at all, there would be less option to claim discrimination if a religious institution refused to conduct a ceremony for people who weren't members in good standing. If you (couple who know this church won't marry you) want the ceremony in the church you can do what everyone else does - attend regularly for six months, pass a vote to be accepted as members, jump through whatever other hoops apply to everyone, and then you are welcome to have the same ceremony that every other member can have. If you choose not to jump through the hoops you have less option to say you were excluded because (characteristics).

In the People's Republic of California, we had the exact same debate some years ago. There was a proposition up for election that would allow "same sex marriage." Those AGAINST this were NOT against civil unions, they were NOT against persons of the same gender having the same legal and economic rights and privileges of marriage, they were against this being MARRIAGE. Those in favor of this make it crystal clear the issu3e for them was NOT equality or rights or privileges, it was entirely about respect, honor, recognition... accepting them as fully MARRIED in every sense. They won.

It's not entirely clear how to change the situation such that a marriage becomes a choice between a marriage and a marriage. I don't know that any potentially marginalised group can ever achieve full acceptance in every sense - there are probably still people out there who refuse to accept mixed-race marriages. But for all practical purposes it makes no difference. If this church or that mosque refuses to accept a gay couple as being married it's hard to see what changes. If the law refuses to accept them as married that changes things.
 
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