The gospel of Jesus Christ...

[Josiah]

@justbyfaith

Then you didn't receive it and therefore do not have it.

I was given the gift of physical life. I consider that the greatest earthly gift God ever gave me. But I didn't choose it. I didn't decide to take it. It was simply GIVEN and thus RECEIVED. I shared other examples.

Your premise that a gift cannot be received unless we choose it and TAKE it is obviously wrong and absurd. And simply ignores God's grace, mercy and blessings.

"Receiving" is passive. "Giving" is the active. We RECEIVE something God GIVES.

God does not force the issue when He draws a man to Christ.\

When considering that God GAVE me the gift of life - without me asking for it, without me giving Him permission to do that, without me ripping it from His hands but He freely giving and blessing - I'm not angry as you suggest I should be, I'm grateful.

Could you give the verse where it states, "God does not force His grace on people." Just quote the verse and give the reference.

He offers it to us whether we give Him permission or not.

But only if we allow it? And only if we request it? And only if we rip it out of His hands, not if God simply gives it?

How, exactly, does the DEAD, spiritually lifeless request it and rip it out of His hands - so that God isn't giving a blessing? Can you give an example of a dead person (biologically lifeless) who does what you suggest that dead people (spiritually) must do?




1 Corinthians 2:14, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them."

Ephesians 2:1-9 You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, GOD MADE US ALIVE — in Christ, by grace you have been saved— God raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Romans 9:16, "So it depends NOT on human will but on God, who has mercy."

​

 

[Josiah]

I do not need a scripture that states that. It is a first truth that is self-evident as being truth; that God would never command us to do anything unless we are able to do it.

@justbyfaith

Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect even as THE the heavenly Father is perfect." This command is giving to both believers and unbelievers. And is in the present tense, this is to be the reality NOW. By YOU.

So, according to you, you (and every other 7.7 billion people on Earth) are completely ABLE to be equal to God in morality and love.... you just aren't? Since your premise is we all can be perfectly sinless and holy, then why do we need God's grace, mercy, forgiveness and salvation? Why Jesus? Why didn't God just say, "I gave you the command - you CAN do it - well, do it or go to _________. "




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[Josiah]

@justbyfaith

The believer contributes nothing except...

I'm sure you meant the UNbeliever contributes nothing EXCEPT.... a believer already has faith, the believer already has salvation, the believer already is justified. This thread is not about what the SAVED can do but who SAVES them, how that salvation comes about.



Now your position is clear...

You've stated that Jesus does it "ALL". You've posted that several times. He does 100% of it, all of it. You claimed. So that He IS THE Savior, not part Savior. He does 100% of what's needed. Good. But you also said that we save ourselves. "We save ourselves" you've insisted. The first is of course very biblical, the second (you've proven) is never stated in Scripture.

Now you are a bit clearer, you don't hold that Jesus does it ALL. He does something (you haven't said what) BUT not ALL. Actually, the thing that actually means someone is saved is done by the DEAD person. This dead one does something, the "except...." and THAT'S the thing that means he's actually saved.

So, we now see your position. Jesus isn't the Savior at all. He may make it POSSIBLE but He's not the one who actually does what salvation requires, the DEAD atheistic enemy of God does that. It all hinges on that "except" thing.... which is the function of the dead, spiritually lifeless, atheist, enemy of God. HE does the thing, HE does that "except" which brings about salvation. HE does the work that means he's saved, justified, going to heaven. The dead saves himself, gives life to himself. Jesus did not do 100%, He left out the part that actually saves.

I hope you give your position some thought and prayer.... I REALLY hope you will reconsider this odd position of yours. I sincerely hope you'll be open to examining it - and embracing the Gospel that you've both affirmed and denied: That Jesus is the Savior. All Christianity hinges on that... all eternity does.




1 Corinthians 2:14, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them."

Ephesians 2:1-9 You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, GOD MADE US ALIVE — in Christ, by grace you have been saved— God raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Romans 9:16, "So it depends NOT on human will but on God, who has mercy."




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[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith


Correct, but your claim is that if God commands something, then dead unbelievers can fully comply and do it.

I reminded you of the Command to be perfect (Matthew 5:48) and asked if even YOU, as a believer, can fully comply. You ignored that.

Your premise is both wrong and absurd.

See Romans 8:4, Galatians 2:20, 5:18,22-23.

We can indeed measure up to God's holy and righteous standard in the things that are mentioned in those verses.

I was given the gift of physical life. I consider that the greatest earthly gift God ever gave me. But I didn't choose it. I didn't decide to take it. It was simply GIVEN and thus RECEIVED. I shared other examples.

Your premise that a gift cannot be received unless we choose it and TAKE it is obviously wrong and absurd. And simply ignores God's grace, mercy and blessings.

Spiritual life is given when we take it (Revelation 22:17).

That may or may not be the case with physical life; as we have no memory of our existence before we may have received physical life.

When considering that God GAVE me the gift of life - without me asking for it, without me giving Him permission to do that, without me ripping it from His hands but He freely giving and blessing - I'm not angry as you suggest I should be, I'm grateful.

Could you give the verse where it states, "God does not force His grace on people." Just quote the verse and give the reference.

Matthew 7:7-8, Revelation 3:20, 22:17, Daniel 11:38.

Rev 22:17, ESV has it wrong.

Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

As with Daniel 11:38.

Dan 11:38, But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

(technical difficulties)

But only if we allow it? And only if we request it? And only if we rip it out of His hands, not if God simply gives it?

To receive is not necessarily to "rip it out of His hands". He is handing the gift to us. All we have to do is drop whatever is in our hands and open our hands to receive it.

How, exactly, does the DEAD, spiritually lifeless request it and rip it out of His hands - so that God isn't giving a blessing?

Someone who is dead spiritually is not dead physically....and so is capable of asking.

There is also the reality that those who are dead in trespasses and sins are actually SLEEPING (Ephesians 5:14).

Can you give an example of a dead person (biologically lifeless) who does what you suggest that dead people (spiritually) must do?

Of course those who are called upon to receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour are not biologically lifeless.

@justbyfaith

Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect even as THE the heavenly Father is perfect." This command is giving to both believers and unbelievers. And is in the present tense, this is to be the reality NOW. By YOU.

Yes; and God enables it with such verses as Romans 8:4, Galatians 2:20, 5:18, 5:22-23. Also Romans 5:5, 13:8-10.

So, according to you, you (and every other 7.7 billion people on Earth) are completely ABLE to be equal to God in morality and love.... you just aren't?

I'm sorry for you that you don't know any of the saints well enough to determine that they are, in fact, saints.

Since your premise is we all can be perfectly sinless and holy, then why do we need God's grace, mercy, forgiveness and salvation? Why Jesus? Why didn't God just say, "I gave you the command - you CAN do it - well, do it or go to _________. "

We must needs abide in Christ (John 15:1-8, 1 John 3:6, 2:17) and this is a venue of His grace to us.

I'm sure you meant the UNbeliever contributes nothing EXCEPT.... a believer already has faith, the believer already has salvation, the believer already is justified. This thread is not about what the SAVED can do but who SAVES them, how that salvation comes about.

By the time someone surrenders to Jesus' Lordship, they would need to be a believer by that time, wouldn't you say?

But you also said that we save ourselves. "We save ourselves" you've insisted. The first is of course very biblical, the second (you've proven) is never stated in Scripture.

It is (in Acts 2:40). Apparently, you haven't been paying attention.

Now you are a bit clearer, you don't hold that Jesus does it ALL. He does something (you haven't said what) BUT not ALL. Actually, the thing that actually means someone is saved is done by the DEAD person. This dead one does something, the "except...." and THAT'S the thing that means he's actually saved.

Yes, I hold that Jesus does it all; when we ask Him to do it.

So, we now see your position. Jesus isn't the Savior at all.

Jesus is fully and completely the Saviour according to my position.

He may make it POSSIBLE but He's not the one who actually does what salvation requires, the DEAD atheistic enemy of God does that.

Jesus does it all; when we ask Him to do it.

HE does that "except" which brings about salvation. HE does the work that means he's saved, justified, going to heaven. The dead saves himself, gives life to himself. Jesus did not do 100%, He left out the part that actually saves.

God gives life to the one who confesses with his mouth the Lord Jesus, believing in his heart that God hath raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9-13).

See also Hosea 14:2 and Acts 2:38-39 for other prescriptions of what we must do in order to obtain salvation.

Of course, those who are of the "non-elect" (unsaved) have an inability to do those things; except they be drawn to Christ (and all are drawn to Christ at some point in their life, John 12:32).

And if they receive Christ, it will suddenly be determined that they were always of the elect.

I hope you give your position some thought and prayer....

I hope that you will at some point be able to stop misrepresenting my position.

 

[justbyfaith]

1 Corinthians 2:14, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them."

Ephesians 2:1-9 You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, GOD MADE US ALIVE — in Christ, by grace you have been saved— God raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Romans 9:16, "So it depends NOT on human will but on God, who has mercy."

Again I say, the inability to receive Christ as it is spoken of in these verses is overcome when we are drawn to Christ (John 6:44, Ephesians 5:14).

 

[Josiah]

See Romans 8:4, Galatians 2:20, 5:18,22-23.

@justbyfaith

None of these state that if God commands something, therefore we can fully comply and do it. You know that.

Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect even as the heavenly Father is perfect." This command is giving to both believers and unbelievers. And is in the present tense, this is to be the reality NOW. By YOU.

So, according to you, you (and every other 7.7 billion persons on Earth) are completely ABLE to be equal to God in perfection, morality and love.... you just aren't? Since your premise is we all can be perfectly sinless and holy, then why do we need God's grace, mercy, forgiveness and salvation? Why Jesus? Why didn't God just say, "I gave you the command - you CAN do it - well, do it or go to _________. "

Unless you insist that every human can be fully as perfect as God - they all have this natural ability on their own - then your premise is not only obviously unbiblical but absurd.

Spiritual life is given when we take it (Revelation 22:17).

So we take something and then it's given?

Revelation 22:17 does NOT state that the DEAD take salvation from God. Nor does it state that first the dead must rip this from God and then God will give it to them.

1 Corinthians 2:14, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them." The Dead unbeliever is not able to understand or accept the things of God. HE IS NOT ABLE. You are requiring the dead unbeliever to do what the Bible specifically verbatim states he is unable to do.

All we have to do is drop whatever is in our hands and open our hands to receive it.

Then the DEAD has to DO something before he can have spiritual life, faith, justification.. He has a WORK he has to perform, that dead, atheistic, unbelieving enemy of God. But the Bible says that natural man cannot do that. "He is not able". So how can he do this work you require if he is unable?

"ALL the dead unbeliever has to do....." Turns out, this thing you say natural man has to DO, this WORK he must perform, this part he contributes is the very thing that means he is saved. So when you repeatedly posted that that Jesus does "all the saving" that's not actually your position, because what Jesus does doesn't save - not you, not me, not anyone. It's what the DEAD, natural, unbelieving atheist enemy of God does. So when you wrote "we save ourselves" - that's actually your position. Jesus makes it possible, maybe.... but Jesus doesn't save.

By the time someone surrenders to Jesus' Lordship, they would need to be a believer by that time

There goes your whole point!!! And I rejoice, perhaps you're abandoned your strange position.

Yes, when the person has received faith and life and salvation.... they are a believer! So, FIRST they are a believer - and God does that.

Consider the account of the rising of Lazarus. He was physically DEAD. Just as the Bible says all and every natural man is spiritually DEAD. Jesus - because of grace and mercy - came to Him and Called him from the Dead. We know this a miracle because obviously Jesus GAVE this DEAD MAN life. Gave. Blessed. Then he could walk out of that tomb as Jesus commanded. But the life - JESUS did that, it's a miracle of Jesus, it's a miracle of grace and mercy. Lazarus did NOT do the very thing that caused him to have life, he did NOTHING to bring about his life.

Your theology is that the DEAD cannot have life and salvation UNTIL that dead one FIRST does some stuff..... the ".... EXCEPT" you keep stressing, the key thing, the functional thing, that one thing that means the DEAD becomes alive, saved - what HE does. Glory be to self.

Yes, I hold that Jesus does it all; when we ask Him to do it. Jesus is fully and completely the Saviour according to my position. Jesus does it all; when we ask Him to do it. God gives life to the one who confesses with his mouth the Lord Jesus, believing in his heart that God hath raised Him from the dead

Well, now you are back to your position that Jesus is not the Savior, Jesus actually saves no one. Each dead, unbelieving, atheistic, enemy of God saves himself by doing the VERY THING that salvation requires. Your claim that Jesus does ALL the saving is clearly something you don't believe, He does NOT do 100%. Since it all hinges on what the dead atheist does - that "except" you stress - the part the dead must do - then Jesus does not do 100% of what's needed, He does not do all the saving, He is not the Savior. He doesn't save anyone. Each dead person saves himself by doing the VERY THING, the WORK, the thing that means he is saved. Without him doing that, he's not saved, so the Savior is actually the one who does the very thing that means he's saved - the dead one, natural man.

1 Corinthians 2:14, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them."

Ephesians 2:1-9 You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, GOD MADE US ALIVE — in Christ, by grace you have been saved— God raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Sorry, but it's just silly to insist that Jesus does 100% of the saving but the natural man has to first DO stuff - the very stuff that means he is saved.





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[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith

None of these state that if God commands something, therefore we can fully comply and do it. You know that.

Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect even as the heavenly Father is perfect." This command is giving to both believers and unbelievers. And is in the present tense, this is to be the reality NOW. By YOU.

So, according to you, you (and every other 7.7 billion persons on Earth) are completely ABLE to be equal to God in perfection, morality and love.... you just aren't? Since your premise is we all can be perfectly sinless and holy, then why do we need God's grace, mercy, forgiveness and salvation? Why Jesus? Why didn't God just say, "I gave you the command - you CAN do it - well, do it or go to _________. "

Unless you insist that every human can be fully as perfect as God - they all have this natural ability on their own - then your premise is not only obviously unbiblical but absurd.

The verses in question tell us that we can walk in perfect victory and freedom from sin...so that Matthew 5:48 is fulfillable in our lives.

So we take something and then it's given?

Revelation 22:17 does NOT state that the DEAD take salvation from God.

Sure it does..."whosoever will"...

Nor does it state that first the dead must rip this from God and then God will give it to them.

1 Corinthians 2:14, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them." The Dead unbeliever is not able to understand or accept the things of God. HE IS NOT ABLE. You are requiring the dead unbeliever to do what the Bible specifically verbatim states he is unable to do.

The one who is dead in trespasses and sins is actually SLEEPING (Ephesians 5:14).

Natural inability is overcome when we are drawn to Christ.

Not to the extent that we cannot but come to Christ;

But to the extent that we are enabled to make a free will decision either for or against Christ.

Then the DEAD has to DO something before he can have spiritual life, faith, justification.. He has a WORK he has to perform, that dead, atheistic, unbelieving enemy of God. But the Bible says that natural man cannot do that. "He is not able". So how can he do this work you require if he is unable?

"ALL the dead unbeliever has to do....." Turns out, this thing you say natural man has to DO, this WORK he must perform, this part he contributes is the very thing that means he is saved. So when you repeatedly posted that that Jesus does "all the saving" that's not actually your position, because what Jesus does doesn't save - not you, not me, not anyone. It's what the DEAD, natural, unbelieving atheist enemy of God does. So when you wrote "we save ourselves" - that's actually your position. Jesus makes it possible, maybe.... but Jesus doesn't save.

The Bible teaches that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:9)

If that is a work, the scripture contradicts itself. For it says that salvation is not of works (Ephesians 2:9).

Receiving a gift is not a work.

Consider the account of the rising of Lazarus. He was physically DEAD. Just as the Bible says all and every natural man is spiritually DEAD. Jesus - because of grace and mercy - came to Him and Called him from the Dead. We know this a miracle because obviously Jesus GAVE this DEAD MAN life. Gave. Blessed. Then he could walk out of that tomb as Jesus commanded. But the life - JESUS did that, it's a miracle of Jesus, it's a miracle of grace and mercy. Lazarus did NOT do the very thing that caused him to have life, he did NOTHING to bring about his life.

Your theology is that the DEAD cannot have life and salvation UNTIL that dead one FIRST does some stuff..... the ".... EXCEPT" you keep stressing, the key thing, the functional thing, that one thing that means the DEAD becomes alive, saved - what HE does. Glory be to self.

Jesus said to Lazarus, "come forth" and Lazarus' part was to come forth.

Well, now you are back to your position that Jesus is not the Savior, Jesus actually saves no one. Each dead, unbelieving, atheistic, enemy of God saves himself by doing the VERY THING that salvation requires. Your claim that Jesus does ALL the saving is clearly something you don't believe, He does NOT do 100%. Since it all hinges on what the dead atheist does - that "except" you stress - the part the dead must do - then Jesus does not do 100% of what's needed, He does not do all the saving, He is not the Savior. He doesn't save anyone. Each dead person saves himself by doing the VERY THING, the WORK, the thing that means he is saved. Without him doing that, he's not saved, so the Savior is actually the one who does the very thing that means he's saved - the dead one, natural man.

Jesus shed His blood and there is no forgiveness apart from the blood. God does all the work of regenerating a soul; just not against our wills.

Why not just confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, believing in your heart that God hath raised Him from the dead?

Why not just call on the name of the Lord?

It is because your theology tells you that you are unable to do so...

Really, all you have to do is move your lips in a certain way and it will be done.

1 Corinthians 2:14, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them."

Ephesians 2:1-9 You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, GOD MADE US ALIVE — in Christ, by grace you have been saved— God raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Sorry, but it's just silly to insist that Jesus does 100% of the saving but the natural man has to first DO stuff - the very stuff that means he is saved.

See Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, and Acts 2:38-39.

Cut them out of your Bible if you don't believe in what is written in those verses (keeping in mind what it says in Revelation 22:18-19)...

Because if you don't believe in what they say, you have already done so in your heart.

The verses clearly state what it is that we must do to obtain salvation.

I would say that if you will not, it is because you cannot.

And, that if you cannot, it is because you will not.

 

[Josiah]

Matthew 5:48 is fulfillable in our lives.

@justbyfaith

Good! Then DO it! Why haven't you done so already? Why hasn't any other of the 7.7 billion people in the world?

The one who is dead in trespasses and sins is actually SLEEPING.

Your heresy of Pelagianism is all over the place.

The Bible teaches that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:9)

It does NOT state, "Those who are DEAD can do this by their own accord." It say that the natural man CANNOT do that. That's the word the Bible uses, he CANNOT.

1 Corinthians 2:14, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, he cannot do so." The Dead natural unbeliever is not able to understand or accept the things of God. HE IS NOT ABLE. HE CANNOT. You are requiring the dead unbeliever to do what the Bible specifically verbatim states he CANNOT do. It specifically, verbatim states he DOES not, he CANNOT. The very work you insist he must do is the very thing the Bible says no one can, no one does.

For it says that salvation is not of works (Ephesians 2:9).

Yet your position is that the natural, dead, unbeliever MUST DO SOMETHING in order to be saved. THE key thing. THE work that means they are saved. The dead, natural, unbelieving enemy of God MUST DO THAT, perform that work - the very work that determines if they go to heaven or hell.

Receiving a gift is not a work.

Taking it is. My position is that we receive it, your position is that the dead natural unsaved must TAKE it. You rejected my point that we simply receive it (receive being passive); you ridiculed by point that God GAVE me life (gave being active) and I simply received it (receive being passive). You want the unbeliever to TAKE salvation from God who merely OFFERS it. You are again applying your very, very radical form of Pelagianism, your very American idea that we are self-made.

Jesus said to Lazarus, "come forth" and Lazarus' part was to come forth.

Then 2000 years of Christianity are wrong and Jesus performed no miracle here. Lazarus gave himself life, Lazarus performed the miracle, Lazarus is to be praised here. Jesus just issued a command. Lazarus did the miracle, Lazarus did the work. Having given himself life THEN Lazarus could obey Jesus' command. See... you just can't grasp grace, mercy, blessings... you just must remove Jesus from this and put the dead at the center, the dead responsible, the dead the active one, the dead doing the miracle, the blessing, the life-giving, the real saving.

God does all the work of regenerating a soul; just not against our wills.

Thus your odd position that Jesus did 100% of the salvation and yet the dead save themselves. If the dead do even 1% of what's necessary, then Jesus did not do 100%, did He? You say the dead, natural, unsaved atheist person MUST do something - salvation doesn't happen if that dead one doesn't DO this. That dead one MUST DO this work. Then Jesus didn't do it all - obviously. He isn't the Savior He is at most PART Savior (the part that doesn't actually save).



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[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith

Good! Then DO it! Why haven't you done so already? Why hasn't any other of the 7.7 billion people in the world?

Who says I'm not doing it?

You don't know my life or the lives of many other people who have obtained the "second benefit" (2 Corinthians 1:15, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24)...

For you are not Omniscient.

But you assume that everyone else is the same as you; incapable of doing what the Bible says we are to do as the result of having received salvation through Jesus' shed blood...which has the power to sanctify you (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29).

Your heresy of Pelagianism is all over the place.

I am not preaching heresy, but, I will say what was said by Paul the apostle,

Act 24:14, But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

It does NOT state, "Those who are DEAD can do this by their own accord." It say that the natural man CANNOT do that. That's the word the Bible uses, he CANNOT.

1 Corinthians 2:14, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, he cannot do so." The Dead natural unbeliever is not able to understand or accept the things of God. HE IS NOT ABLE. HE CANNOT. You are requiring the dead unbeliever to do what the Bible specifically verbatim states he CANNOT do. It specifically, verbatim states he DOES not, he CANNOT. The very work you insist he must do is the very thing the Bible says no one can, no one does.

So, you cannot receive the Lord and will be condemned eternally to hell because you cannot do what it takes to receive salvation.

Yet your position is that the natural, dead, unbeliever MUST DO SOMETHING in order to be saved. THE key thing. THE work that means they are saved. The dead, natural, unbelieving enemy of God MUST DO THAT, perform that work - the very work that determines if they go to heaven or hell.

Yes, you must confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, believing in your heart that God hath raised Him from the dead...you must "call upon the name of the Lord" (Romans 10:9-13).

I would contend that this is a matter of moving your lips in a specific manner.

If you don't believe, you can say, "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief!" (Mark 9:23-24)

Taking it is. My position is that we receive it, your position is that the dead natural unsaved must TAKE it. You rejected my point that we simply receive it (receive being passive); you ridiculed by point that God GAVE me life (gave being active) and I simply received it (receive being passive). You want the unbeliever to TAKE salvation from God who merely OFFERS it. You are again applying your very, very radical form of Pelagianism, your very American idea that we are self-made.

Yes, you must take the water of life freely (Revelation 22:17)

Then 2000 years of Christianity are wrong and Jesus performed no miracle here. Lazarus gave himself life, Lazarus performed the miracle, Lazarus is to be praised here. Jesus just issued a command. Lazarus did the miracle, Lazarus did the work. Having given himself life THEN Lazarus could obey Jesus' command. See... you just can't grasp grace, mercy, blessings... you just must remove Jesus from this and put the dead at the center, the dead responsible, the dead the active one, the dead doing the miracle, the blessing, the life-giving, the real saving.

Of course Jesus gave him life; by commanding him to come forth He enabled him to come forth.

Thus your odd position that Jesus did 100% of the salvation and yet the dead save themselves. If the dead do even 1% of what's necessary, then Jesus did not do 100%, did He? You say the dead, natural, unsaved atheist person MUST do something - salvation doesn't happen if that dead one doesn't DO this. That dead one MUST DO this work. Then Jesus didn't do it all - obviously. He isn't the Savior He is at most PART Savior (the part that doesn't actually save).

So, you have given yourself a pass against your responsibility to receive Christ.

You don't really need to receive Him (although receiving Him is necessary for salvation); because you cannot.

Therefore, if God condemns you on the day of judgment, the onus is on God; because He didn't make you one of His elect; and therefore your damnation was entirely God's decision (and an arbitrary one at that).

Such a doctrine identifies God as not being a God of love. Yet, He is a God of love (1 John 4:8,16).

 

[Josiah]

Who says I'm not doing it?

Good to know. So you are perfect, just like God. Everyone else (Christian or not) fully CAN be but you ARE. So much for the Bible... "There is no one who is good, no one who does what is good." But good to know you prove Scripture wrong. It might be interesting to see if your wife agrees with you.

I once commented on your ego.... It explains a LOT about your views.



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[justbyfaith]

Good to know. So you are perfect, just like God. Everyone else (Christian or not) fully CAN be but you ARE. So much for the Bible... "There is no one who is good, no one who does what is good." But good to know you prove Scripture wrong. It might be interesting to see if your wife agrees with you.

I once commented on your ego.... It explains a LOT about your views.

Again, it seems that misunderstanding abounds (but grace abounds much more).

Rom 8:4, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
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Gal 5:18, But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
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Gal 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24, And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
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Gal 2:20, I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Since it is Christ who is living His life in me and through me, the life that is lived is going to be the life of Christ.

And He is perfect in every way.

It is when I take back the control of my life and begin to live it myself that I get into trouble.

I am a sinner, even the chief of all of them in my flesh (1 Timothy 1:15, Romans 7:18); and if I am the one living my life it is going to be a life of sin.

But Jesus Christ is perfect, and, according to Galatians 2:20, He is living His life in me and through me.

So, the life that is going to be lived is going to be a perfect life.

If I take back the control of my life and begin to live it myself, it will cease to be perfect.

 

[Josiah]

Since it is Christ who is living His life in me and through me, the life that is lived is going to be the life of Christ.

Your point, your premise, your apologetic is that ALL can be as perfect as God is.... everyone... your point is that even the DEAD, unregenerate, unbelieving, non-Christian, atheist, enemy of God CAN innately do everything God commands. "If God commands it, it can be done." Your point is that God would be unfair otherwise (???).

NOT that CHRISTIANS are SEEN as perfect in Christ since they are forgiven....

The Bible states that NO ONE is perfect (except Jesus)... NO ONE is good. Not even Christians. CHRISTIANS not perfect, just forgiven. Non-Christians are just not perfect.

But Jesus Christ is perfect, and, according to Galatians 2:20

Yup. But it doesn't list YOU in the verse. I am curious if your wife says you are as perfect as God....

And the context here is the UNBELIEVER, the one who is NOT in Christ (yet anyway), the dead, the enemy of God. For your whole heretical theology that we save ourselves is based on your premise that the DEAD, lifeless, unbeliever - the one WITHOUT Christ - can be all God commands. And of course that includes this command, given to all: "Be perfect even as the Father is perfect." If your premise is true, then every nonchristian, unbelieving, spiritually dead perfect can be perfect.



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[justbyfaith]

Your point, your premise, your apologetic is that ALL can be as perfect as God is.... everyone... your point is that even the DEAD, unregenerate, unbelieving, non-Christian, atheist, enemy of God CAN innately do everything God commands. "If God commands it, it can be done." Your point is that God would be unfair otherwise (???).

NOT that CHRISTIANS are SEEN as perfect in Christ since they are forgiven....

The Bible states that NO ONE is perfect (except Jesus)... NO ONE is good. Not even Christians. CHRISTIANS not perfect, just forgiven. Non-Christians are just not perfect.

Romans 3:10-18 is qualified by v.19...it does not apply to those who are not under the law (see Romans 6:14).

Our practical life can be consistently perfect as Jesus lives His life in us and through us.

It does not mean that WE are perfect (for we are utterly sinful in our flesh)...

Romans 3:10-18 is also qualified by v.9...the passage is to Jew and Gentile (saying that they are both alike under sin). However, there is a third group spoken of in 1 Corinthians 10:32.

Yup. But it doesn't list YOU in the verse. I am curious if your wife says you are as perfect as God....

And the context here is the UNBELIEVER, the one who is NOT in Christ (yet anyway), the dead, the enemy of God. For your whole heretical theology that we save ourselves is based on your premise that the DEAD, lifeless, unbeliever - the one WITHOUT Christ - can be all God commands. And of course that includes this command, given to all: "Be perfect even as the Father is perfect." If your premise is true, then every nonchristian, unbelieving, spiritually dead perfect can be perfect.

Galatians 2:20 is speaking, in context, of the believer in whom Christ is living.

Of course we do not save ourselves except in the sense that Peter meant in Acts 2:40...that we must receive what Christ has done for us and be willing to surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

And no, it is not unbelievers who can live a perfect life. It is not even the believer who lives a perfect life when a perfect life is lived. It is Christ living His life in the believer who is living a perfect life.

An unbeliever can make the choice to become a believer in a moment of time...thus becoming able to allow Christ to live His life in and through them.

And Galatians 2:20 may not list me; but it does list Paul; who said that his life would be a pattern for all who would believe (1 Timothy 1:16).

 

[Josiah]

Of course we do not save ourselves except we must receive what Christ has done for us and be willing to surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

@justbyfaith


And there's your unorthodox, heretical., anti-Christian problem.

You CLAIM that Jesus is the Savior... that Jesus does "ALL the saving".... which is of course the biblical, orthodox, Christian position. But then you completely destroy and demolish all that by making your key point that no, He is not the Savior, He saves no one, He merely OFFERS it - the dead, lifeless, faithless, unbelieving, atheistic enemy of God must TAKE it, rip it away from Him, in an active way. Thus the DEAD one does a work, does something, THE VERY THING that means he has faith, salvation, heaven. The DEAD one does THE work that means he's saved, he's alive, he's forgiven. There's your horrible, shocking heresy. The very thing that completely destroys Christianity by denying the key affirmation of Christianity, that Jesus is the Savior. You don't believe He is. At MOST, He just OFFERS it. But you seem to want to SOUND Christian, you want to SAY that Jesus is the Savior because that's what you SHOULD beleive but then your whole point is that it's not true. You go on and on and on stressing the dead's greatness, abilities, what the dead can do.

no, it is not unbelievers who can live a perfect life.

There goes your whole apologetic. Think about that.

Your whole point, the essence of your heresy, is that the unbeliever CAN do whatever God commands... God commands him to believe so therefore he can - and often does. "If God commands something, it can be done - or God would be unfair" you stress. Now you seem to realize how absurd your whole point is. No. Obviously no. Your whole premise, your entire apologetic is wrong. Your heresy flows from a falsehood.


1 Corinthians 2:14, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, he cannot do so."

The dead unbeliever CANNOT do as you claim he can Which is exactly what the Bible says, the Bible says that natural man CANNOT understand God, CANNOT accept the things of God. Cannot. And does not. The Dead don't give life to themselves. The Dead can't rip faith from the hands of God. The dead unbeliever does not save himself. Not in full, not in part. Not in any sense. Jesus is the Savior... you SAY that then go on and on and on and no denying that stressing the greatness and ability of the dead unbeliever, giving him the real credit.



Ephesians 2:1-9 You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, GOD MADE US ALIVE — in Christ, by grace you have been saved— God raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."





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