Oneness--coexistent modalism as the true Trinity

[justbyfaith]

I have already explained. The Son always existed with the Father eteranlly. Not begotten. The Son as the Man, Jesus Christ, was begotten of God, at the Resurrection. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33)

Lees

Do you believe that the Man Christ Jesus was not the Son, or one with the Son, until after the resurrection?

 

[Lees]

God very simply said that He gave His only begotten Son.

I find you to be very ridiculous for asking that question.

The term 'only begotten' speaks to the Son in whom the covenant promises are found. For, in fact, God, due to His work with declaring Jesus the Son at the Resurrection, has made it possible to have other sons. For, we who place faith in Jesus Christ become sons of God also as Jesus was the 'First born of many brethern'. (Rom. 8:29-30)

Remember Abraham and Isaac? (Gen . 22:2) God said take Isaac thine only son. Yet Abraham had another son. Ishamael. But Isaac was the promised son. The covenant son.

And Scripture is clear, that we too are 'born-again' by the Resurrection. (1 Peter 1:3)

You see? The Resurrection is the birthing room. Not the incarnation.

Lees

 

[Lees]

That is two Gods.

However, if He was begotten in the incarnation (i.e. He is the same Spirit as the Father, albeit come in flesh), then Jesus and the Father are the same God; and therefore we are preaching one God (James 2:19).

Even though Jesus exists side-by-side with the Father in eternity in the Person of the Son.

No it's not. It is two Persons within the Godhead.

The Son was not begotten of God at the incarnation. The Son as a Man, Jesus Christ, was begotten of God at the Resurrection.

One God, three Persons. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus as the Son begotten at the Resurrection is the Son of God. But, there is always the distinction in the Persons. The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Father. The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

But, the Son, Who took on that body Who we know as Jesus Christ, forever submitted Himself to the Father. (1 Cor. 15:28)

Lees

 

[Lees]

Do you believe that the Man Christ Jesus was not the Son, or one with the Son, until after the resurrection?

The Man Jesus Christ was the God/Man. He was the Son born into the human family. But never begotten of the Father.

The Man Jesus Christ was God the Son born into the human race. He would be born or begotten of the Father at the Resurrection. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33)

Lees

 

[justbyfaith]

The term 'only begotten' speaks to the Son in whom the covenant promises are found. For, in fact, God, due to His work with declaring Jesus the Son at the Resurrection, has made it possible to have other sons. For, we who place faith in Jesus Christ become sons of God also as Jesus was the 'First born of many brethern'. (Rom. 8:29-30)

Remember Abraham and Isaac? (Gen . 22:2) God said take Isaac thine only son. Yet Abraham had another son. Ishamael. But Isaac was the promised son. The covenant son.

And Scripture is clear, that we too are 'born-again' by the Resurrection. (1 Peter 1:3)

You see? The Resurrection is the birthing room. Not the incarnation.

Lees

Jesus was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35).

And yes, when Jesus spoke John 3:16, He had not yet died and risen; and after He would die and rise from the dead, there would be other sons.

Thus it is written,

Heb 1:6, And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Now, this means that He was God when He was begotten (brought into the world).

Also, God gave His only begotten Son to die on the Cross.

So, He was begotten before He died; and thus before He resurrected.

 

[Messy3]

How was He begotten at the resurrection? What, exactly, took place that you define as Him being begotten?

Dutch translation just says resurrected. Like the circumcision, His flesh part was cut off, the will of His body, the blood in which is the life/soul of the flesh He gave, so then He was again as God, but as a human as the first born of many brethren. Perfected by suffering.

 

[justbyfaith]

No it's not. It is two Persons within the Godhead.

The Son was not begotten of God at the incarnation. The Son as a Man, Jesus Christ, was begotten of God at the Resurrection.

One God, three Persons. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus as the Son begotten at the Resurrection is the Son of God. But, there is always the distinction in the Persons. The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Father. The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

But, the Son, Who took on that body Who we know as Jesus Christ, forever submitted Himself to the Father. (1 Cor. 15:28)

Lees

My doctrine has Jesus and the Father as two (distinct) Persons within the Godhead.

But when you have the Son of God as being separate from the Father and also being God,

(i.e. the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost; as one diagram presents it)

that is two Gods.

Yes, the Father is not the Son; because the Father is an eternal, Omnipresent Spirit without flesh inhabiting eternity while the Son is the same Spirit come in human flesh.

The Son is, in a sense, the Father (Isaiah 9:6-7, John 14:7-11); in that the Spirit of the Son is the Father.

For it has been said that I am a spirit, I have a soul, and I dwell in a body.

But the 1st Person of the Trinity is not the Son except inasmuch as He dwells in the flesh of the Son.

There is an entirely distinct Person in the Father who is not dwelling in human flesh.

But the Son, being in flesh, is the same Spirit as the Father.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Man Jesus Christ was the God/Man. He was the Son born into the human family. But never begotten of the Father.

The Man Jesus Christ was God the Son born into the human race. He would be born or begotten of the Father at the Resurrection. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33)

Lees

Of course it is sound doctrine that Jesus was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35).

 

[justbyfaith]

Dutch translation just says resurrected. Like the circumcision, His flesh part was cut off, the will of His body, the blood in which is the life/soul of the flesh He gave, so then He was again as God, but as a human as the first born of many brethren. Perfected by suffering.

I think I want @Lees to answer the question, thank you.

 

[justbyfaith]

Dutch translation just says resurrected. Like the circumcision, His flesh part was cut off, the will of His body, the blood in which is the life/soul of the flesh He gave, so then He was again as God, but as a human as the first born of many brethren. Perfected by suffering.

I would simply reference to you 1 John 4:1-3 (kjv), 2 John 1:7 (kjv); because I am uncertain as to what you are trying to say but if you are saying something in particular (which appears to be what you are saying), then these passages address your belief.

 

[Josiah]

The Athanasian Creed




the Son is uncreated,

Yes. The Second Person of the Trinity is uncreated. This is specifically addressing THAT and only THAT.

When Jesus was born, that Son (ALREADY EXISTING) was not created - it was at a point in time INCARNATE (not created) with the human nature of Jesus, which was created.

IF the Creed stated, "The human nature of Jesus, born at Bethlehem, was uncreated" that would be unbiblical but that's not what it says. It says SON, it's talking about the Second Person of the Trinity. I agree - there is a sense in which we can state that's that was incarnate IN Jesus at a point of time... and I agree that there's a sens in which we can speak of Jesus as the Son of God, but this Creed is not equating the two. The Son is eternal, the body of Jesus was created.



.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes. The Second Person of the Trinity is uncreated. This is specifically addressing THAT and only THAT.

When Jesus was born, that Son (ALREADY EXISTING) was not created - it was at a point in time INCARNATE (not created) with the human nature of Jesus, which was created.

IF the Creed stated, "The human nature of Jesus, born at Bethlehem, was uncreated" that would be unbiblical but that's not what it says. It says SON, it's talking about the Second Person of the Trinity. I agree - there is a sense in which we can state that's that was incarnate IN Jesus at a point of time... and I agree that there's a sens in which we can speak of Jesus as the Son of God, but this Creed is not equating the two. The Son is eternal, the body of Jesus was created..

Now my contention is that Jesus Himself was created and that He was begotten in the incarnation.

That the Person of the Son is the Son in that He is come in the flesh.

Prior to the incarnation, He was not "eternally begotten"...

But I would put it to you that the Father is an eternal, Omnipresent Spirit without flesh, and that the Son is the same Spirit come in flesh.

That there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) who is God (John 4:24)...

Therefore, since that Spirit is the Father (John 4:23-24);

And the Son, being God, is also a Spirit (John 4:24);

I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

 

[Josiah]

Prior to the incarnation, He was not "eternally begotten"...

Not Jesus, but as you went to great length to prove, the Creed doesn't say JESUS is eternal - it says the SON is.

But I would put it to you that the Father is an eternal, Omnipresent Spirit without flesh, and that the Son is the same Spirit come in flesh.

No.

The Father is the Father.
The Son is the Son.
The Spirit is the Spirit.

No mistake in Scripture there. Nowhere does Scripture state that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are the same.



.

 

[justbyfaith]

Not Jesus, but as you went to great length to prove, the Creed doesn't say JESUS is eternal - it says the SON is.

So, your contention is that Jesus isn't the Son of God?

(I did not go to any lengths to prove that).

I would point you to the following.

1Jo 4:15, Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 5:5, Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

I would say that we can conclude that if anyone denies that Jesus is the Son of God, they do not overcome the world; and God does not abide in them or they in God.

No.

The Father is the Father.
The Son is the Son.
The Spirit is the Spirit.

No mistake in Scripture there. Nowhere does Scripture state that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are the same.

So, is it your contention that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate Spirits (since God is spirit, John 4:24)?

Or, do you agree with me that they are one and the same Spirit (John 4:24 (kjv), Ephesians 4:4)?

 

[justbyfaith]

No mistake in Scripture there. Nowhere does Scripture state that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are the same.

How about James 2:19?

 

[justbyfaith]

John 10:30?

 

[justbyfaith]

Clearly, there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5); and that Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).

Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Mat 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luk 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

2Co 6:17, Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Yet, no one can say that "Jesus is the Lord" except by the Spirit of truth (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

And, Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord (1 Corinthians 12:5, 2 Corinthians 8:19 (kjv)).

1Co 12:5, And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

2Co 8:19, And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

So, to the reader, my question is, do you confess that Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 12:3, 8:6) in the light of scriptures that say that the Father is the one Lord of holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5; Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18)?

(quoted above)

If not, then you do not have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3)...

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

And therefore do not belong to Christ (Romans 8:9).

Rom 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[justbyfaith]

A HORRIBLE mis-mash of heresies and an incredible, amazing misunderstanding of the Trinity.

By all means, show forth your scriptural reasons for believing that.

Give any of my statements in the post in question and just reference any quote from the Bible that refutes that statement.

 

[Lees]

Jesus was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35).

And yes, when Jesus spoke John 3:16, He had not yet died and risen; and after He would die and rise from the dead, there would be other sons.

Thus it is written,

Heb 1:6, And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Now, this means that He was God when He was begotten (brought into the world).

Also, God gave His only begotten Son to die on the Cross.

So, He was begotten before He died; and thus before He resurrected.

The Man Jesus was born into the human race in (Luke 1:35) The Son was given. (Is. 9:6)

(Luke 1:35) only states that that which is born of Mary shall be called the 'Son of God'. Which He should be as He was the Son. It in no way says that the Son was begotten of God or that Jesus was begotten of God. It says that which is born of Mary.

The term 'first begotten' is a title and speaks to Jesus being the first of other sons to be born of God. He would be the first begotten, when He was 'begotten by God. Which was at the Resurrection. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33) Just as we who are the other sons are born of God by the Resurrection also. (1 Peter 1:3)

(Heb. 1:6) only says 'when he bringeth the first begotten into the world'. Thus the incarnation is the time when God bringeth the first begotten into the world. It is not the time when Jesus is begotten of God. Scripture is clear that the Son, who was born into the human race as the Man Jesus Christ, was begotten of God at the Resurrection. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33) "this day have I begotten thee".

You can say what you want. But what you say contradicts Scripture. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33)

Lees

 

[Lees]

My doctrine has Jesus and the Father as two (distinct) Persons within the Godhead.

But when you have the Son of God as being separate from the Father and also being God,

(i.e. the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost; as one diagram presents it)

that is two Gods.

Yes, the Father is not the Son; because the Father is an eternal, Omnipresent Spirit without flesh inhabiting eternity while the Son is the same Spirit come in human flesh.

The Son is, in a sense, the Father (Isaiah 9:6-7, John 14:7-11); in that the Spirit of the Son is the Father.

For it has been said that I am a spirit, I have a soul, and I dwell in a body.

But the 1st Person of the Trinity is not the Son except inasmuch as He dwells in the flesh of the Son.

There is an entirely distinct Person in the Father who is not dwelling in human flesh.

But the Son, being in flesh, is the same Spirit as the Father.

No. One God, but three Persons. Not three God's.

The Son is eternal as well having always existed with the Father, as well as the Holy Spirit.

When, in your doctrine, did the Son, not Jesus, come into existence?

Lees