Oneness--coexistent modalism as the true Trinity

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justbyfaith

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Your problem is in my communication. True enough. Because I have shown the emptiness of your argument.

I don't doubt your ability to understand. I doubt your credibility and honesty in presenting your argument.

Lees

Yet you can't explain (Ps 2:7) and (Acts 13:33) which are clearly against you.

Go ahead and bow out. I don't care. You and I both know why.

Lees
I refrain from responding to you because I am tempted to exhibit what might be identified as trollish behaviour in response to what you are posting; answering your posts in kind.

I desire to have a prolonged stay at this website so I am resisting that temptation at this point.
 

Lees

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I will say that Luke 1:35 does in fact reveal to us that Jesus was begotten in the incarnation.

Luk 1:35, And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

(Luke 1:35) speaks to time when the Son entered, was born into, the human race, and became the Person we know as Jesus Christ. The God/Man.

But that is not the time when the Person of Jesus Christ was 'begotten' of God. He was begotten of God at the Resurrection. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33)

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Josiah

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How do the creeds dissent with the Bible itself?

Which creeds?

What statements conflict with what Scriptures?


They state that Jesus is uncreated; while the Bible states that He was "made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Romans 1:3);

1. Quote were some creed says Jesus was uncreated.

2. Remember: Jesus is BOTH divine and human, both, 100% Not blended but inseparable. And it is not uncommon to refer to Jesus as ONE of those natures without denying the other. For example, you can say Jesus does not know the time of His Return - but that would be by His human nature, His divine nature certainly does know. Now, His HUMAN nature can be said to be "created" in a sense but not His divine.



And the creeds state that He is eternally begotten; while I believe that the Bible states (in Luke 1:35) that He was begotten in the incarnation.

Where does some creed say "begotten?"

I hope you don't deny the divinity of Jesus.





In order to be God He must be God HImself; as I believe that we find clearly written in Colossians 2:9.

Sure. Do you deny His divinity?


Now, here is my take on the Trinity.

God the Father is an Omnipresent Spirit inhabiting eternity without flesh;

While the Son is the same Spirit come in human flesh.

For there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) who is God (John 4:24).

And clearly, that Spirit is the Father (John 4:23-24).

And if Jesus be God, then Jesus Christ is also that Spirit (John 4:24).

So, I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Spirit.

Even of the same essence as the creeds explicitly tell us.

For I contend that the essence of God is the Father; and that He is a Spirit (John 4:23-24).

Now, Jesus, being that same Spirit in essence, released His Spirit back to the Father dwelling in eternity.

(the Father did not VACATE ETERNITY when He descended to take on an added nature of human flesh;

for by nature, One who inhabits eternity dwells in eternity for ever).

That Spirit is in fact the Father; but He is given the title of Holy Ghost because, being the same Spirit as the Father, He is also a distinct Person from the Father.

Distinct in that the Father does not understand humanity (i.e. the fear of death) in an experiential manner; since He has never had to face death; while the Holy Ghost understands humanity (i.e. the fear of death) since He has lived a human life in the Person of the Son and was released back into eternity to the Father at the juncture of Luke 23:46.

This clearly and concisely explains the Trinity; shewing from scripture that there is one God, even one Lord, even one Spirit; who exists in the form of three distinct Persons in our Triune Godhead.

(For the Son is distinct from the Father and the Holy Ghost in that He is come in flesh; and the Holy Ghost is distinct from the Father in that He has an experiential understanding of what it means to be human; and also is a distinct Person as He ascended into eternity to exist side-by-side with the Father in eternity.)

The only problem with it might be that it sides with holy scripture rather than the creeds when it comes to the idea of whether Jesus is eternally begotten or else begotten in the incarnation (that His life as the Person of the Son began at His conception at the juncture of Luke 1:35).

I would say that even though I am saying that Jesus was begotten in the incarnation, that in this I am not saying that Jesus isn't preexistent or that He doesn't also exist throughout eternity.

From Jesus' own perspective, He is eternally pre-existent as that Spirit who inhabits eternity.

And also, it is true that when Jesus ascended, He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10) and therefore the risen and ascended Christ exists outside of time; since time is a created thing.

Therefore, He is there at the beginning in the Person of the Son and John 1:1-3 isn''t compromised.

I am going to be posting in the Christian only sections because what I have said in this post is the only thing in my theology that might be said to be counter-orthodox; while I think that in all reality it is not counter-orthodox but exalts the biblical statements over and above what is written in the creeds.

For the creeds also allow for Jesus being created according to the flesh in that they affirm the incarnation of Christ later on in their statements.

If this doctrine be considered heresy, I encourage those who are listening to come to Jesus outside the camp (Hebrews 13:12-13);

And that you also consider the words of Paul...

Act 24:14, But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Because I think that you will find that this doctrine is in perfect conjunction with the creeds except in the points where I have stated that I follow holy scripture instead.


A HORRIBLE mis-mash of heresies and an incredible, amazing misunderstanding of the Trinity.



.
 

justbyfaith

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The Athanasian Creed

Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.


The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.


Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.
 
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justbyfaith

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In what I have quoted above in blue, I relate what is written in the creeds that speaks of the incarnation; how it appears to both be affirmed and denied.

What I have quoted above in
white, I have related what is written in the creeds that states that God is one Lord and that He cannot be said to be three Lords.

What I have quoted above in
red, I have related what is written in the creeds that states that Jesus is the same essence as the Father (and therefore the same Spirit).
 

justbyfaith

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Which creeds?

The Athanasian and Nicene creeds.

What statements conflict with what Scriptures?

As I said, when they say that Jesus is uncreated, it conflicts with Romans 1:3 and Luke 1:35.

1. Quote were some creed says Jesus was uncreated.
I have done so in another post.

2. Remember: Jesus is BOTH divine and human, both, 100% Not blended but inseparable. And it is not uncommon to refer to Jesus as ONE of those natures without denying the other. For example, you can say Jesus does not know the time of His Return - but that would be by His human nature, His divine nature certainly does know. Now, His HUMAN nature can be said to be "created" in a sense but not His divine.
Yes, I am saying that His human nature is created; and that He is the Son in that He has taken on an added nature of human flesh.
Where does some creed say "begotten?"
I have related it to you in a post above.

I hope you don't deny the divinity of Jesus.
I do not.

Sure. Do you deny His divinity?
No.

A HORRIBLE mis-mash of heresies and an incredible, amazing misunderstanding of the Trinity..
How so? Can you give scripture that shows how any of my statements are unbiblical?
 

Lees

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Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.


The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.


Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Does the Roman Catholic faith hold to 'modalism' or 'Sabellianism'? Is that the Roman faith?

The Son was never 'begotten'. The Son existed/exists eternally with the Father. The Son became a Man, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was begotten as the Son of God at the Resurrection. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33).

The Son was not 'begotten' at the incarnation. At the incarnation the Son was given. (Is. 9:6) "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given...."

Lees
 

justbyfaith

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(Luke 1:35) speaks to time when the Son entered, was born into, the human race, and became the Person we know as Jesus Christ. The God/Man.

But that is not the time when the Person of Jesus Christ was 'begotten' of God. He was begotten of God at the Resurrection. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33)

Lees
He was begotten in the incarnation according to Luke 1:35.

Now, when you say that He was begotten (i.e."born of God") at the resurrection, what do you mean by that?

Are you saying that He was a sinner (1 John 3:9, 5:18) before the resurrection and therefore not God?
 

justbyfaith

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Does the Roman Catholic faith hold to 'modalism' or 'Sabellianism'? Is that the Roman faith?

The Son was never 'begotten'. The Son existed/exists eternally with the Father. The Son became a Man, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was begotten as the Son of God at the Resurrection. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33).

The Son was not 'begotten' at the incarnation. At the incarnation the Son was given. (Is. 9:6) "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given...."

Lees
That is two Gods; if the Son is eternally existent with the Father.

In my scenario, the Father and the Son are at least the same God, being the same Spirit.

Do you contend that the Father and the Son are two different Spirits (the Son, being God, would by necessity need to be a Spirit, John 4:24)?

Or, do you agree with me that there is one Spirit and that therefore the Father and the Son, being God, are the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4)?

Also, are we Roman Catholics here or are we Protestants?

I think that sola scriptura ought to be the criteria for our judgment.
 

Lees

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He was begotten in the incarnation according to Luke 1:35.

Now, when you say that He was begotten (i.e."born of God") at the resurrection, what do you mean by that?

Are you saying that He was a sinner (1 John 3:9, 5:18) before the resurrection and therefore not God?

No. Scripture is clear. The Son was not 'begotten' of lGod at the incarnation. The Son was given. Born into the human race.

(Ps. 2:7) and (Acts 13:33) is equally clear. Jesus Christ is declared begotten of God at the Resurrection.

What I mean by that is what (Ps. 2:7) and (Acts 13:33) means by that. Jesus was 'begotten' as a Son of God at the Resurrection.

Why would I say He was sinner?

Lees
 

justbyfaith

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No. Scripture is clear. The Son was not 'begotten' of lGod at the incarnation. The Son was given. Born into the human race.

(Ps. 2:7) and (Acts 13:33) is equally clear. Jesus Christ is declared begotten of God at the Resurrection.

What I mean by that is what (Ps. 2:7) and (Acts 13:33) means by that. Jesus was 'begotten' as a Son of God at the Resurrection.

Why would I say He was sinner?

Lees
You are saying that He was not "born of God" until His resurrection.

Now, there is a definition for "born of God" in 1 John 3:9, 5:18. It is implied that someone who is not "born of God" is a sinner.
Therefore, when you say that Jesus was not "born of God" until after the resurrection, you imply that He was a sinner before the resurrection...

And in this you appear to me to be denying that He was God.
 

Lees

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That is two Gods; if the Son is eternally existent with the Father.

In my scenario, the Father and the Son are at least the same God, being the same Spirit.

Do you contend that the Father and the Son are two different Spirits (the Son, being God, would by necessity need to be a Spirit, John 4:24)?

Or, do you agree with me that there is one Spirit and that therefore the Father and the Son, being God, are the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4)?

Also, are we Roman Catholics here or are we Protestants?

I think that sola scriptura ought to be the criteria for our judgment.

No, it's not two God's. It is One God in three Persons.

No, the Father is distinct from the Son in Person. And they are distinct from the Holy Spirit, in Person. But they make up One God. Father, Son. and Holy Spirit. Same nature, 3 persons, One God.

Well, I was asking you if Roman Catholics hold to 'modalism', which they don't. What makes you think Protestants hold to 'modalism'?

Well, as far as 'sola Scripture' you arn't doing very well. For Scripture is against you.

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justbyfaith

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For the sake of argument I can concede that Jesus was begotten at the resurrection;

For even in that, it should be clear that it is saying that He was not eternally begotten but was begotten at a specific moment in time.

Yet, for the sake of sound doctrine, I do not concede the point.

Because Jesus was in fact begotten ("born") in the incarnation.

Again,

Luk 1:35, And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
 
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Lees

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You are saying that He was not "born of God" until His resurrection.

Now, there is a definition for "born of God" in 1 John 3:9, 5:18. It is implied that someone who is not "born of God" is a sinner.
Therefore, when you say that Jesus was not "born of God" until after the resurrection, you imply that He was a sinner before the resurrection...

And in this you appear to me to be denying that He was God.

How silly. No, I am not saying it. Scripture says it. Which you refuse to address. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33)

(1 John 3:9) and (5:18) is not talking about the Son. So, no, I imply no such thing. The Son was born into the human race as Jesus Christ. Because He was the Son, He was without sin.

No, He was God the Son. When the Son was born into the human race, He was the God/Man, Jesus Christ. He would be begotten as the Son of God at the Resurrection. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33)

Lees
 

justbyfaith

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No, it's not two God's. It is One God in three Persons.

No, the Father is distinct from the Son in Person. And they are distinct from the Holy Spirit, in Person. But they make up One God. Father, Son. and Holy Spirit. Same nature, 3 persons, One God.

Well, I was asking you if Roman Catholics hold to 'modalism', which they don't. What makes you think Protestants hold to 'modalism'?

Well, as far as 'sola Scripture' you arn't doing very well. For Scripture is against you.

Lees
Just as hyper-Calvinism cannot really be defined as Calvinism, so "coexistent modalism" cannot really be defined as modalism.

You have to delve deeper into what the doctrine entails in order to have a proper understanding of the doctrine.

In coexistent modalism, there are three distinct Persons within the Triune Godhead. But there is an emphasis on the concept of there being one God (James 2:19).

Do you agree that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the same Spirit; even the same Lord; even the same God?

We can begin there.
 

justbyfaith

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How silly. No, I am not saying it. Scripture says it. Which you refuse to address. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33)

(1 John 3:9) and (5:18) is not talking about the Son. So, no, I imply no such thing. The Son was born into the human race as Jesus Christ. Because He was the Son, He was without sin.

No, He was God the Son. When the Son was born into the human race, He was the God/Man, Jesus Christ. He would be begotten as the Son of God at the Resurrection. (Ps. 2:7) (Acts 13:33)

Lees
How was He begotten at the resurrection? What, exactly, took place that you define as Him being begotten?
 

Lees

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For the sake of argument I can concede that Jesus was begotten at the resurrection;

For even in that, it should be clear that it is saying that He was not eternally begotten but was begotten at a specific moment in time.

Yet, for the sake of sound doctrine, I do not concede the point.

Because Jesus was in fact begotten ('born") in the incarnation.

Again,

Luk 1:35, And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Really? For the sake of argument and not because Scripture clearly says so?

The Son was never begotten. He existed eternally with the Father and Holy Spirit.

The Son as a Man, was begotten at the Resurrection. You fail to see the distinction.

(Luke 1:35) is addressing the incarnation. The Son being born into the human race. The Son was always the Son of God. But the Son as a Man, Jesus Christ, would not be begotten of God until the Resurrection.

Lees
 

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