justbyfaith
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2023
- Messages
- 186
- Gender
- Male
- Religious Affiliation
- Calvary Chapel
- Marital Status
- Married
- Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
- No
I have decided to post this in this section of the forums as in this post I will express a certain dissent with what is written in the creeds.
To the moderators, I give you the option of changing my status so that I can only post in this section or else trust in the fact that I will not post anything un-Christian in the Christian section.
(as this post is also not un-Christian; while it does express dissent with certain statements in the creeds for that the creeds are dissenting with the Bible itself in their statements).
How do the creeds dissent with the Bible itself?
They state that Jesus is uncreated; while the Bible states that He was "made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Romans 1:3);
And the creeds state that He is eternally begotten; while I believe that the Bible states (in Luke 1:35) that He was begotten in the incarnation.
My contention is that if Jesus is eternally begotten, then by necessity He would be 1/3 of God or else a 2nd God; and not God Himself.
In order to be God He must be God HImself; as I believe that we find clearly written in Colossians 2:9.
Now, here is my take on the Trinity.
God the Father is an Omnipresent Spirit inhabiting eternity without flesh;
While the Son is the same Spirit come in human flesh.
For there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) who is God (John 4:24).
And clearly, that Spirit is the Father (John 4:23-24).
And if Jesus be God, then Jesus Christ is also that Spirit (John 4:24).
So, I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Spirit.
Even of the same essence as the creeds explicitly tell us.
For I contend that the essence of God is the Father; and that He is a Spirit (John 4:23-24).
Now, Jesus, being that same Spirit in essence, released His Spirit back to the Father dwelling in eternity.
(the Father did not VACATE ETERNITY when He descended to take on an added nature of human flesh;
for by nature, One who inhabits eternity dwells in eternity for ever).
That Spirit is in fact the Father; but He is given the title of Holy Ghost because, being the same Spirit as the Father, He is also a distinct Person from the Father.
Distinct in that the Father does not understand humanity (i.e. the fear of death) in an experiential manner; since He has never had to face death; while the Holy Ghost understands humanity (i.e. the fear of death) since He has lived a human life in the Person of the Son and was released back into eternity to the Father at the juncture of Luke 23:46.
This clearly and concisely explains the Trinity; shewing from scripture that there is one God, even one Lord, even one Spirit; who exists in the form of three distinct Persons in our Triune Godhead.
(For the Son is distinct from the Father and the Holy Ghost in that He is come in flesh; and the Holy Ghost is distinct from the Father in that He has an experiential understanding of what it means to be human; and also is a distinct Person as He ascended into eternity to exist side-by-side with the Father in eternity.)
The only problem with it might be that it sides with holy scripture rather than the creeds when it comes to the idea of whether Jesus is eternally begotten or else begotten in the incarnation (that His life as the Person of the Son began at His conception at the juncture of Luke 1:35).
I would say that even though I am saying that Jesus was begotten in the incarnation, that in this I am not saying that Jesus isn't preexistent or that He doesn't also exist throughout eternity.
From Jesus' own perspective, He is eternally pre-existent as that Spirit who inhabits eternity.
And also, it is true that when Jesus ascended, He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10) and therefore the risen and ascended Christ exists outside of time; since time is a created thing.
Therefore, He is there at the beginning in the Person of the Son and John 1:1-3 isn''t compromised.
I am going to be posting in the Christian only sections because what I have said in this post is the only thing in my theology that might be said to be counter-orthodox; while I think that in all reality it is not counter-orthodox but exalts the biblical statements over and above what is written in the creeds.
For the creeds also allow for Jesus being created according to the flesh in that they affirm the incarnation of Christ later on in their statements.
If this doctrine be considered heresy, I encourage those who are listening to come to Jesus outside the camp (Hebrews 13:12-13);
And that you also consider the words of Paul...
Act 24:14, But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Because I think that you will find that this doctrine is in perfect conjunction with the creeds except in the points where I have stated that I follow holy scripture instead.
To the moderators, I give you the option of changing my status so that I can only post in this section or else trust in the fact that I will not post anything un-Christian in the Christian section.
(as this post is also not un-Christian; while it does express dissent with certain statements in the creeds for that the creeds are dissenting with the Bible itself in their statements).
How do the creeds dissent with the Bible itself?
They state that Jesus is uncreated; while the Bible states that He was "made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Romans 1:3);
And the creeds state that He is eternally begotten; while I believe that the Bible states (in Luke 1:35) that He was begotten in the incarnation.
My contention is that if Jesus is eternally begotten, then by necessity He would be 1/3 of God or else a 2nd God; and not God Himself.
In order to be God He must be God HImself; as I believe that we find clearly written in Colossians 2:9.
Now, here is my take on the Trinity.
God the Father is an Omnipresent Spirit inhabiting eternity without flesh;
While the Son is the same Spirit come in human flesh.
For there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) who is God (John 4:24).
And clearly, that Spirit is the Father (John 4:23-24).
And if Jesus be God, then Jesus Christ is also that Spirit (John 4:24).
So, I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Spirit.
Even of the same essence as the creeds explicitly tell us.
For I contend that the essence of God is the Father; and that He is a Spirit (John 4:23-24).
Now, Jesus, being that same Spirit in essence, released His Spirit back to the Father dwelling in eternity.
(the Father did not VACATE ETERNITY when He descended to take on an added nature of human flesh;
for by nature, One who inhabits eternity dwells in eternity for ever).
That Spirit is in fact the Father; but He is given the title of Holy Ghost because, being the same Spirit as the Father, He is also a distinct Person from the Father.
Distinct in that the Father does not understand humanity (i.e. the fear of death) in an experiential manner; since He has never had to face death; while the Holy Ghost understands humanity (i.e. the fear of death) since He has lived a human life in the Person of the Son and was released back into eternity to the Father at the juncture of Luke 23:46.
This clearly and concisely explains the Trinity; shewing from scripture that there is one God, even one Lord, even one Spirit; who exists in the form of three distinct Persons in our Triune Godhead.
(For the Son is distinct from the Father and the Holy Ghost in that He is come in flesh; and the Holy Ghost is distinct from the Father in that He has an experiential understanding of what it means to be human; and also is a distinct Person as He ascended into eternity to exist side-by-side with the Father in eternity.)
The only problem with it might be that it sides with holy scripture rather than the creeds when it comes to the idea of whether Jesus is eternally begotten or else begotten in the incarnation (that His life as the Person of the Son began at His conception at the juncture of Luke 1:35).
I would say that even though I am saying that Jesus was begotten in the incarnation, that in this I am not saying that Jesus isn't preexistent or that He doesn't also exist throughout eternity.
From Jesus' own perspective, He is eternally pre-existent as that Spirit who inhabits eternity.
And also, it is true that when Jesus ascended, He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10) and therefore the risen and ascended Christ exists outside of time; since time is a created thing.
Therefore, He is there at the beginning in the Person of the Son and John 1:1-3 isn''t compromised.
I am going to be posting in the Christian only sections because what I have said in this post is the only thing in my theology that might be said to be counter-orthodox; while I think that in all reality it is not counter-orthodox but exalts the biblical statements over and above what is written in the creeds.
For the creeds also allow for Jesus being created according to the flesh in that they affirm the incarnation of Christ later on in their statements.
If this doctrine be considered heresy, I encourage those who are listening to come to Jesus outside the camp (Hebrews 13:12-13);
And that you also consider the words of Paul...
Act 24:14, But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Because I think that you will find that this doctrine is in perfect conjunction with the creeds except in the points where I have stated that I follow holy scripture instead.
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