Job Question

[Jazzy]

What would you do if you thought your job was “quietly firing” you?

 

[Stravinsk]

Quit. This happened on my last job. The boss didn't want me there but didn't have any good reason to fire me. I discovered he had purposely messed up an area I had cleaned/tidied, took pictures then sent me an email telling me I was not to let this happen. That and another incident was the reason I left.

 

[Lees]

What would you do if you thought your job was “quietly firing” you?

Unless you already had a job lined up to take it's place, I would not quit. I would make them fire me or lay me off.

Depending on your State, but usually, if you quit, you cannot collect un-employment. If you're fired or laid off, you can.

So much depends on your craft and it's demand at the time.

Lees

 

[Messy]

I got enough of it. You could get 25.000 if you left and started your own company and it would be nice if that man stopped whining at my head, so I thought lets quit. Hey ex shall we start a cleaning company? You may be the boss, cause I have no clue what to do and I get the money. Great idea after 12 years of weekly fights over the house not being clean enough. Then a collegue said I should go to a guy for help. I still have the same job. After some years we finally got rid of him. One after the other had a burnout or quit, because of his micromanaging. A collegue was surprised that I just kept coming to work. Later he got friendlier to me, when that man helped me, cause he thought he was from a trade union. I would rather have just quit. It was hard, but I have kids to take care of, so that was no option. When I was in my 20s there was a slime ball boss. Bye bye. I left within a week and then did catering work for 800 a month instead of 1600 I first would get. Bye. I live here for my fun. I rented a cheap students room so who cares,not gonna stay with that 50 y o slime ball, sliming with 20 y o girls.

 

[Lamb]

Unless you already had a job lined up to take it's place, I would not quit. I would make them fire me or lay me off.

Depending on your State, but usually, if you quit, you cannot collect un-employment. If you're fired or laid off, you can.

So much depends on your craft and it's demand at the time.

Lees

Totally this! ^

Sometimes you might get a feel for it and sometimes it might be a different type of change to the company and you aren't aware of it. So don't quit without having a new job lined up, keep doing your work as you go about your day.

 

[tango]

I was in a situation where it was obvious my boss didn't want me there. I was trying to find another job but it would have cost me a huge cut in salary to move, so I just dug in my heels and did what was required. I wasn't interested in going above and beyond, if the boss wanted anything unusual I wanted an email so I had a record of what he asked for, and I complied with what he requested even if it was absurd.

Sometimes malicious compliance can brighten up an otherwise dull day at work.

 

[Lees]

I should have qualified my statement about gettting un-employment benefits if you are fired. You can, but only under certain conditions in Texas. Thus you would have to jump through the hoops and try and prove your firing wasn't for various reasons. It is best to let them lay you off.

And, if your looking for another job, don't let anyone know. I made that mistake once and it got back to the empolyer. What did she do? Fired me for not bringing my SS card in soon enough. She knew if she fired me it would be difficult to get un-employment. I was fortunate and picked up work a couple of days later.

Lees

 

[ValleyGal]

I believe this is happening for me right now. My manager became more and more micromanaging, and then started giving me unrealistic extra duties despite having more work than anyone in our team. Before I finally went on stress leave, she had me working my full caseload as well as develop a whole new project and then demanded that the project deadline was far sooner than I could have delivered. I had been telling her all along that I would not be ready, but she still sent out an email to our stakeholders telling them about the start date. I knew it would not be done and would end up failing as a result, so one day at lunch I went to my doctor and got a note for medical leave. When my manager got the letter from worker's compensation for a mental health injury, she then made accusations that I had logged into a database and "worked" while I was on leave - a lie that could get me fired if it were true. So even on stress leave she is finding ways to increase my stress.

I can hope for a permanent note from my doctor in which case I will end up on long term disability, and they will then retrain me so I don't have to go back to that job. Worker's compensation has a role in this as well but I'm not sure what. Either way, she has succeeded in quiet firing me because I can't possibly work any harder than I was, and it was not good enough for her. I won't go back to that kind of abuse of power, and when I am safely in another position or company, I will file further reports about her conduct and will demand an exit interview during which I will tell them everything. I have 7 pages of documentation.

I wish it were not like this. I loved my job and was good at it.

 

[tango]

I remember a time my problem manager presented me with a silly deadline. I laughed at him and asked if he'd like me to find a cure for cancer while I was at it.

 

[Jazzy]

I have gone through this. The job actively making it difficult to meet the set goals, and not hiring new people so attrition gets rid of people.

Look for a new job and don't quit. If the choice is between getting fired or quitting, you get fired so you can collect unemployment. But don't force it. If you get fired for something like attendance you will have your unemployment denied in most cases.

 

[tango]

I have gone through this. The job actively making it difficult to meet the set goals, and not hiring new people so attrition gets rid of people.

Look for a new job and don't quit. If the choice is between getting fired or quitting, you get fired so you can collect unemployment. But don't force it. If you get fired for something like attendance you will have your unemployment denied in most cases.

Yep, it becomes a game of doing the absolute minimum that is explicitly required, covering your back at every turn and making sure you don't give anybody a specific reason to fire you. Malicious compliance simply makes it more fun, as long as you have a clear record of exactly what you were asked to do. And obviously know employment law in your area well, it's always fun when you know the rule book better than the boss does.

 

[ValleyGal]

Yep, it becomes a game of doing the absolute minimum that is explicitly required, covering your back at every turn and making sure you don't give anybody a specific reason to fire you. Malicious compliance simply makes it more fun, as long as you have a clear record of exactly what you were asked to do. And obviously know employment law in your area well, it's always fun when you know the rule book better than the boss does.

There was no such thing as minimum - she kept upping the minimum and changing the goalposts. Nothing was in writing until she sent out an email telling everyone what was happening - except it was all wrong. Malicious compliance? I tried to make her deadline, worked through lunches and breaks, came in early, carried my full caseload and also developed a full program, so it was like working two full time jobs cramming them into one 7.5-hr day. You can only squeeze so much work out of a person. It was logistically impossible. She did not have clear guidelines, and at the end, she actually asked why the room was not booked and why the participants had not been contacted because they are supposed to be contacted two weeks prior to start. My super said she was not aware of that, and I said it was also because in my mind, I knew I was not going to be ready, so the deadline was not going to work for me. Even if I knew about some arbitrary "policy" (which is not in writing anywhere in this place) that she made up, I would not have done it because her date was not my date.

Here's the kicker. She had to postpone it - for three weeks while I was off on my original stress leave. But she still expected it to unfold the same way: My super should do all the original contacts and get the project started and then for me to step in during week two. That is not okay. I asked for another month off, so it was then postponed again. Now the same thing is happening, where the new start date is a week before my scheduled return. So... I'll be asking for another month. Maybe two. Maybe more. I just know that had she listened to me originally about the start date, I would not have gone on leave and we would be three weeks now into the project. Too bad for her, as long as the start date is always a week before my return, I will be asking for more time off. I'm seriously not playing her game anymore. I will not implement the project until it is finished and ready to go. Period. The more she messes with my professionalism, the longer she is putting off the start date, the more unhappy stakeholders are, and the longer my waitlist is going to get, and that is her own doing.

I'm so sick of people who abuse their "power."

 

[tango]

Do you have any form of written contract of employment? If you have anything that defines the hours you work, you work those hours and not a minute longer. If you're entitled to a specific period of time for lunch you take every minute of it without exception, at the precise times if needs be. And you take it somewhere outside of the office. I could frequently be seen on the walkway beside my office building, just taking in some fresh air.

If you have more work than you can do within the designated hours, you work the hours you're paid to work and then go home. If there's more work than time paid you let the manager know there isn't time and ask what the priorities are, given you can't get to it all. Often the manager will then say something like "it's all critical", which means none of it is critical. Since the idea is to get an idea of relative priorities (e.g. if you can't get it all done then make sure A is done and B can wait) if "everything is critical" is just means the relative priority of everything is the same. My response to that was to do the stuff that looked most interesting first. If I felt really malicious I'd leave the stuff that would hold up everything else until last - if the manager didn't give any indication of what was most important the implication was that there was no preferred sequence.

A lot naturally depends on employment law where you live. The US makes it lot easier to fire people than most of Europe, so some of what you might get away with in Europe may result in being fired faster in the US. If you have any form of employment protection legislation and you have a written contract of employment that includes your working hours, the manager may not be in a place where they can just "increase the minimum" because your contract will define what is required of you.

If it comes to it, look up specific words in the dictionary. It sounds like a stupid concept but I remember having a contract that defined my working hours and said something like "I may be required to work additional hours as the exigencies of (company) require". My manager interpreted that as meaning anything he felt like dumping on people at short notice had to be done and people could be required to be on call at his discretion but the dictionary definition referred to unexpected situations rather than predictable results of poor management and routine maintenance tasks. He didn't like it when I told him that, and liked it even less when he found out I'd told several other team members when they asked me about it.

 

[ValleyGal]

I am a union member. Two weeks into my leave, the union rep called me up to see why I was on leave. I explained the situation, and his best answer was that "managers have the right to manage as they see fit." I said "Sure, but when does that 'right' turn into harassment and bullying?" He had no answer for me and referred me to our Workers Compensation people. I have a claim going for mental health injury, and will be asking them whether I should file as harassment or injury.

Curriculum and group development is not part of my job description, but it does fall under the item "And other duties as required." Meaning they can tell me to do anything and everything. So she asked me to start groups on depression. My supervisor wasted a month looking for a group framework, and just as we were about to start familiarizing with one, manager changed her mind and then wanted one on stress. Super found nothing, so I said I have a background in curriculum development and can write one. She said okay but I have to also maintain my full caseload (I had 22 clients and saw most of them every week for an hour each). After a couple of weeks, she put a deadline on the group. I told her there was no way I'd have it done. She pressured for the next two weeks and I told her I cannot have it done especially if I am to continue with a full caseload. She extended the date by two weeks. I told her I could not have it done. She said nothing. I worked hard to try. Then she said as long as I got the curriculum basics done by the deadline she would be happy. So I worked very hard at that but told her I had to let go of my clients. She continued to pressure. I continued to tell her it would not be done. I dropped clients without her permission just so I could work on this. She was away for one week, after which she came back and was very upset that we hadn't contacted the participants or booked the boardroom. I told her it was not going to be ready, and the super was unaware of these expectations. Manager went and booked the boardrooom and sent out the email I mentioned earlier where she gave out false/misleading information, invited referrals and set out the date. Super went to advocate for me and it was approved for three weeks later, except that clashed with my pre-approved vacation and continuing education time. Manager did not care. That's when I went to my doctor for a medical note.

The thing about curriculum development is that you have to write the program/course. Then you have to do a full dry run to make sure it's going to flow, that it makes sense, that the timing is accurate, that you have all the information you need to give participants and weed out anything they don't need. Once it and all supplemental materials are ready to go, then you can start working on the logistics - book the room, do the intake interviews, etc...oh, and it also had to be sent to upper management for approval, which also takes a couple of weeks so they can read and examine it. Manager just didn't like that none of this could be done on her own agenda.

Had she listened to me, we would be doing it now. But she got "greedy" in wanting what she wants when she wants it whether you can produce it or not. She had to postpone twice more since I've been off work and she has set start dates the same way all three times (original and twice since I've been off) so that my super would have to do all the intakes and at least the first group - in the first two scenarios, my super would have do also do two more sessions to accommodate CE and vacation, that SHE approved! Since I've been off, she also accused me of "working" while I'm on leave and logging into the medical records databases, which could get a person fired if it were actually true. It is not true of course, but I did log in to fetch important emails from disability management and to fetch my pay statement. But she made the accusation, so that says she is either trying to fire me or cause me more stress while I'm on stress leave.

The irony? The group she wanted me to write is a psychoeducational group on STRESS! LOL ......

 

[Messy]

I am a union member. Two weeks into my leave, the union rep called me up to see why I was on leave. I explained the situation, and his best answer was that "managers have the right to manage as they see fit." I said "Sure, but when does that 'right' turn into harassment and bullying?" He had no answer for me and referred me to our Workers Compensation people. I have a claim going for mental health injury, and will be asking them whether I should file as harassment or injury.

Curriculum and group development is not part of my job description, but it does fall under the item "And other duties as required." Meaning they can tell me to do anything and everything. So she asked me to start groups on depression. My supervisor wasted a month looking for a group framework, and just as we were about to start familiarizing with one, manager changed her mind and then wanted one on stress. Super found nothing, so I said I have a background in curriculum development and can write one. She said okay but I have to also maintain my full caseload (I had 22 clients and saw most of them every week for an hour each). After a couple of weeks, she put a deadline on the group. I told her there was no way I'd have it done. She pressured for the next two weeks and I told her I cannot have it done especially if I am to continue with a full caseload. She extended the date by two weeks. I told her I could not have it done. She said nothing. I worked hard to try. Then she said as long as I got the curriculum basics done by the deadline she would be happy. So I worked very hard at that but told her I had to let go of my clients. She continued to pressure. I continued to tell her it would not be done. I dropped clients without her permission just so I could work on this. She was away for one week, after which she came back and was very upset that we hadn't contacted the participants or booked the boardroom. I told her it was not going to be ready, and the super was unaware of these expectations. Manager went and booked the boardrooom and sent out the email I mentioned earlier where she gave out false/misleading information, invited referrals and set out the date. Super went to advocate for me and it was approved for three weeks later, except that clashed with my pre-approved vacation and continuing education time. Manager did not care. That's when I went to my doctor for a medical note.

The thing about curriculum development is that you have to write the program/course. Then you have to do a full dry run to make sure it's going to flow, that it makes sense, that the timing is accurate, that you have all the information you need to give participants and weed out anything they don't need. Once it and all supplemental materials are ready to go, then you can start working on the logistics - book the room, do the intake interviews, etc...oh, and it also had to be sent to upper management for approval, which also takes a couple of weeks so they can read and examine it. Manager just didn't like that none of this could be done on her own agenda.

Had she listened to me, we would be doing it now. But she got "greedy" in wanting what she wants when she wants it whether you can produce it or not. She had to postpone twice more since I've been off work and she has set start dates the same way all three times (original and twice since I've been off) so that my super would have to do all the intakes and at least the first group - in the first two scenarios, my super would have do also do two more sessions to accommodate CE and vacation, that SHE approved! Since I've been off, she also accused me of "working" while I'm on leave and logging into the medical records databases, which could get a person fired if it were actually true. It is not true of course, but I did log in to fetch important emails from disability management and to fetch my pay statement. But she made the accusation, so that says she is either trying to fire me or cause me more stress while I'm on stress leave.

The irony? The group she wanted me to write is a psychoeducational group on STRESS! LOL ......

What kind of insanity is this? Evil.
I pray she either gets fired or you find some nice normal job with a normal boss. We got rid of a manager, but he was a sweetheart compared to this. My goodness.

 

[tango]

I am a union member. Two weeks into my leave, the union rep called me up to see why I was on leave. I explained the situation, and his best answer was that "managers have the right to manage as they see fit." I said "Sure, but when does that 'right' turn into harassment and bullying?" He had no answer for me and referred me to our Workers Compensation people. I have a claim going for mental health injury, and will be asking them whether I should file as harassment or injury.

Seriously? A union rep said management can manage however they see fit? Sounds like that person shouldn't be a union rep - as you say an approach like that suggests it's perfectly reasonable to expect you to be on call 24/7, do tasks totally unrelated to your contract, do things that are dangerous or illegal or whatever else.

Curriculum and group development is not part of my job description, but it does fall under the item "And other duties as required." Meaning they can tell me to do anything and everything.

This is where it's good to check what, if any, laws apply to employment where you live. I'd expect a clause that would cover things not explicitly listed as job dutires but I'd also expect something more like "as reasonably required". If your primary job function is secretarial you might be asked to take the trash out but probably wouldn't expect to be asked to clean the bathroom.

Somewhere there has to be a line that determines other duties are not reasonable, or the manager could simply start listing absolutely anything under "other duties" regardless of legal and moral boundaries.

So she asked me to start groups on depression. My supervisor wasted a month looking for a group framework, and just as we were about to start familiarizing with one, manager changed her mind and then wanted one on stress. Super found nothing, so I said I have a background in curriculum development and can write one. She said okay but I have to also maintain my full caseload (I had 22 clients and saw most of them every week for an hour each). After a couple of weeks, she put a deadline on the group. I told her there was no way I'd have it done. She pressured for the next two weeks and I told her I cannot have it done especially if I am to continue with a full caseload. She extended the date by two weeks. I told her I could not have it done. She said nothing. I worked hard to try. Then she said as long as I got the curriculum basics done by the deadline she would be happy. So I worked very hard at that but told her I had to let go of my clients. She continued to pressure. I continued to tell her it would not be done. I dropped clients without her permission just so I could work on this. She was away for one week, after which she came back and was very upset that we hadn't contacted the participants or booked the boardroom. I told her it was not going to be ready, and the super was unaware of these expectations. Manager went and booked the boardrooom and sent out the email I mentioned earlier where she gave out false/misleading information, invited referrals and set out the date. Super went to advocate for me and it was approved for three weeks later, except that clashed with my pre-approved vacation and continuing education time. Manager did not care. That's when I went to my doctor for a medical note.

Do you have an HR department or a more senior manager you can refer to (from what you've said above I think the manager is senior to the supervisor, in which case you'd be talking to the manager's boss)? Depending on how employment law and entitlement to unemployment-related payments work where you live keeping this kind of thing documented is a good thing.

From what you've said here it sounds like you've got a situation where a requirement existed, you offered to help with it but were then expected to fit an increasingly difficult piece of work, with moving targets, into a timeframe that might have worked until deadlines appeared and were tightened. Planning things to clash with a pre-approved vacation is simply bad management.

The thing about curriculum development is that you have to write the program/course. Then you have to do a full dry run to make sure it's going to flow, that it makes sense, that the timing is accurate, that you have all the information you need to give participants and weed out anything they don't need. Once it and all supplemental materials are ready to go, then you can start working on the logistics - book the room, do the intake interviews, etc...oh, and it also had to be sent to upper management for approval, which also takes a couple of weeks so they can read and examine it. Manager just didn't like that none of this could be done on her own agenda.

It sounds like the manager needs to get the boot. Is more senior management likely to be sympathetic to what you are saying?

Had she listened to me, we would be doing it now. But she got "greedy" in wanting what she wants when she wants it whether you can produce it or not. She had to postpone twice more since I've been off work and she has set start dates the same way all three times (original and twice since I've been off) so that my super would have to do all the intakes and at least the first group - in the first two scenarios, my super would have do also do two more sessions to accommodate CE and vacation, that SHE approved! Since I've been off, she also accused me of "working" while I'm on leave and logging into the medical records databases, which could get a person fired if it were actually true. It is not true of course, but I did log in to fetch important emails from disability management and to fetch my pay statement. But she made the accusation, so that says she is either trying to fire me or cause me more stress while I'm on stress leave.

Something like a medical records database should maintain an audit log of when people connect to it, that kind of information is sufficiently sensitive you wouldn't want anyone connecting from anywhere. If you've got a clear record of the accusation and can demonstrate it's unfounded that would be another strike against the manager, if more senior management care about such things. You'd hope a manager making such an accusation would check facts beforehand.

The irony? The group she wanted me to write is a psychoeducational group on STRESS! LOL ......

OK, that beats the irony I enjoyed at one place I worked, where the health and safety manager managed to drop a heavy wrench on his own head....

 

[ValleyGal]

Somewhere there has to be a line that determines other duties are not reasonable, or the manager could simply start listing absolutely anything under "other duties" regardless of legal and moral boundaries.

That was my question to the union rep. He referred me to Workers Comp, who will decide if it's harassment or a "workplace mental health injury." All I know is that I am not going back, so they can figure out how to deal with it.

keeping this kind of thing documented is a good thing.

Fully documented. Everything. I keep a journal at work due to the actual bullying last summer from a coworker who trapped me because I reported unethical behaviour.

It sounds like the manager needs to get the boot. Is more senior management likely to be sympathetic to what you are saying?

Possibly HR but not her line of management. Management flows down: Directors support managers, managers support supervisors, supervisors support frontline workers. Her director has her back, but she doesn't have mine or my supervisor's.

If you've got a clear record of the accusation and can demonstrate it's unfounded that would be another strike against the manager, if more senior management care about such things. You'd hope a manager making such an accusation would check facts beforehand.

The accusation went to the disability management caseworker, who then called me. DM is from HR, so I think I can sort of trust HR? Not sure yet. I'm not sure I can trust anyone there. But yes, everything I do in a medical database is recorded so IT can prove that I did not log into any medical databases.

 

[tango]

That was my question to the union rep. He referred me to Workers Comp, who will decide if it's harassment or a "workplace mental health injury." All I know is that I am not going back, so they can figure out how to deal with it.

I'd have hoped a union rep would give you something far more useful than you described. From what the union rep said you'd be forgiven for thinking that if your management took an inappropriate liking to you they could reasonably expect you to offer all sorts of personal favors while at work.

Fully documented. Everything. I keep a journal at work due to the actual bullying last summer from a coworker who trapped me because I reported unethical behaviour.

Hopefully documentation will be useful, as it sounds like the kind of thing that could escalate if there's no interest in solving the issue within the normal chains of management.

Possibly HR but not her line of management. Management flows down: Directors support managers, managers support supervisors, supervisors support frontline workers. Her director has her back, but she doesn't have mine or my supervisor's.

This is the sort of thing where HR may be useful and may be a total waste of space. If it's the kind of setup that's willing to take someone who looks like a relatively small cog and chase them out you may find you have to fight it, which only increases your stress levels. It's a sad reality that sometimes a company has the time and resources to just drag things out, figuring that sooner or later you'll run out of motivation or resources, or find the whole thing too stressful, and just go away quietly.

The accusation went to the disability management caseworker, who then called me. DM is from HR, so I think I can sort of trust HR? Not sure yet. I'm not sure I can trust anyone there. But yes, everything I do in a medical database is recorded so IT can prove that I did not log into any medical databases.

Depending on the laws where you work, add an inappropriate accusation to the list of complaints against the manager. If they could verify from audit histories that you didn't access a database but decided to accuse you anyway, when the audit history would have clearly shown you didn't do what they claimed, that seems like negligence at best.

 

[ValleyGal]

and just go away quietly

I'm a mental health clinician and I have a BSW and MSW... social worker at heart. Iow, I don't do anything quietly. lol. I seek justice - more for those who come after me, because I have no intention of going back.

 

[tango]

I'm a mental health clinician and I have a BSW and MSW... social worker at heart. Iow, I don't do anything quietly. lol. I seek justice - more for those who come after me, because I have no intention of going back.

Sometimes making life really difficult for someone results in an eventual win as you just wear them down. Every once in a while the system encounters someone who just won't go away. Sometimes they are the ones who end up getting something from the system, even if only as a way to finally make them go away.