So... What are YOU doing? - Part 8

[Lamb]

I had some exciting news yesterday for my church so I couldn't sleep last night, and then I woke up at 3:30am and fell back asleep finally at 5ish. I went to a drive-thru coffee shop this morning and now I'll be wired the rest of the day and probably won't sleep again tonight. oops. I needed to support my local business though because this was a new endeavor for them.

 

[tango]

Strav, that's Interesting. I'd be keen to know how you get on with it.

I remember as a child I wondered, with a child's grasp of such things, whether you could ever make a battery that never ran out. At the time my parents said that if you ever did the battery companies would make it their business to put you out of business and bury your invention.

Back then I was too young to understand why they would do such a thing.

 

[Stravinsk]

Strav, that's Interesting. I'd be keen to know how you get on with it.

I remember as a child I wondered, with a child's grasp of such things, whether you could ever make a battery that never ran out. At the time my parents said that if you ever did the battery companies would make it their business to put you out of business and bury your invention.

Back then I was too young to understand why they would do such a thing.

I tried it today. However, I need to say I replaced a material because I couldn't find it. The material I replaced is Zinc. Instead of just Zinc, all I could find was Zinc-coated washers. That's just a very small coating on a steel washer. So, my replica is most likely missing a major component. Still, I had some results.

I couldn't get an LED or anything to light with my modified version, but the Voltage kept banging up quickly to 2V then my multi-meter overloaded. Again and again. I've had reactions of up to 0.7 volts between two metals, but it sort of crept up to that. On other things, I've had reactions that did what this did (except slower) up to around 0.4 volts - basically creep up then OL my meter and start again.

This was banging out 2V every second or so then OL my multi-meter. Again, understand I couldn't find Zinc, all I could find was Zinc-Coated steel. Obviously I need the Zinc if I want to do a proper test. It's also possible the paper I used was too thin ( I made sure there were no shorts by increasing slightly the paper insulator's diameter so that it stuck out between each grouping).

Video that I found inspiring was part of a much longer unrelated video, so I snipped it out and re-uploaded it here:

Magnet Energy

Edit: I found comments on the video uploaded elsewhere to wet the paper. Ok. That actually worked. It now stays steady at 1.74 or so Volts. Probably do better with Zinc...but it proves to me the video is real! If you put one together, make sure not to short between the magnet/copper side and the Zinc side (in other words, make sure your insulator (paper here) does not allow them to touch!).

Edit 2: The LED lit! It was very dim @ 1.74 volts, but it did light!

 

[tango]

I tried it today. However, I need to say I replaced a material because I couldn't find it. The material I replaced is Zinc. Instead of just Zinc, all I could find was Zinc-coated washers. That's just a very small coating on a steel washer. So, my replica is most likely missing a major component. Still, I had some results.

I couldn't get an LED or anything to light with my modified version, but the Voltage kept banging up quickly to 2V then my multi-meter overloaded. Again and again. I've had reactions of up to 0.7 volts between two metals, but it sort of crept up to that. On other things, I've had reactions that did what this did (except slower) up to around 0.4 volts - basically creep up then OL my meter and start again.

This was banging out 2V every second or so then OL my multi-meter. Again, understand I couldn't find Zinc, all I could find was Zinc-Coated steel. Obviously I need the Zinc if I want to do a proper test. It's also possible the paper I used was too thin ( I made sure there were no shorts by increasing slightly the paper insulator's diameter so that it stuck out between each grouping).

Video that I found inspiring was part of a much longer unrelated video, so I snipped it out and re-uploaded it here:

Magnet Energy

Edit: I found comments on the video uploaded elsewhere to wet the paper. Ok. That actually worked. It now stays steady at 1.74 or so Volts. Probably do better with Zinc...but it proves to me the video is real! If you put one together, make sure not to short between the magnet/copper side and the Zinc side (in other words, make sure your insulator (paper here) does not allow them to touch!).

Edit 2: The LED lit! It was very dim @ 1.74 volts, but it did light!

This sounds like an interesting start but the key question is how long it will produce the voltage. If you've created a battery, that's little more than an interesting way to save buying a battery. If you've produced a battery that produces a voltage for much longer than a regular battery, that's much more interesting.

If you've produced a battery that will produce a voltage forever and never run out, you should be talking to the patent office and expecting some visits from people with lots of money.

 

[Stravinsk]

This sounds like an interesting start but the key question is how long it will produce the voltage. If you've created a battery, that's little more than an interesting way to save buying a battery. If you've produced a battery that produces a voltage for much longer than a regular battery, that's much more interesting.

If you've produced a battery that will produce a voltage forever and never run out, you should be talking to the patent office and expecting some visits from people with lots of money.

You are absolutely right but there is something different about this. So, I was able to up the voltage on the original set up by cheating - I dipped the paper separating each cell into a salt/vinegar solution to get a voltage of about 3.9V. Basically imagine the set as such: I have a small sheet of aluminum resting on a table, resting on the sheet is my cell stack. The purpose of the AL sheet is so I don't have to disturb the stack to take readings. Voltage is a clear 3.9V.

Current (without any load) using the same points of contact is: .5mA or 0.0005A. This is measuring microamps! Ok. But that might be expected because I'm shorting the circuit here.

Now I attached a load (the LED) to the same points I was measuring from. It lights up bright, and now I want to measure current. So, I attach the same electrodes of my ammeter function of my multi-meter (yes flipped over the lead to the ammeter side of the multimeter), and put the probes in the same place. When connected, the LED flips off, and I get a reading. The reading is consistent with the current reading without the LED: 0.5mA or 0.0005A or 500uA (half a mA).

It is not possible to light this LED with this small of a current, but my LED is lit. So there is something different about this.

 

[tango]

Did you try putting the ammeter in series with the rest of the circuit? I wasn't sure from what you described just what you were doing. If you put the ammeter across the load the way you would put a voltmeter you'd expect to get the same reading as before (based on the resistance of the ammeter, which is typically low enough to be negligible in most cases). If you put the power source, ammeter and LED in series you measure how much current flows through the whole lot.

(I expect you already know this, just wanted to be sure)

 

[Stravinsk]

Did you try putting the ammeter in series with the rest of the circuit? I wasn't sure from what you described just what you were doing. If you put the ammeter across the load the way you would put a voltmeter you'd expect to get the same reading as before (based on the resistance of the ammeter, which is typically low enough to be negligible in most cases). If you put the power source, ammeter and LED in series you measure how much current flows through the whole lot.

(I expect you already know this, just wanted to be sure)

The ammeter is reading the same wherever I put it. It's in series because the aluminum is sitting below the cell stack (connecting it). A probe is connected to this, and the other probe at the top of the cell stack just where the LED wire connects. There are no other components, just the cell itself, the aluminum connecting it at the bottom and the LED connected to the top of the stack and the aluminum. A very simple circuit.

What's interesting is that the LED shuts off when I do a current reading. Then when I disconnect the probes, it takes like a second or so to build back up to full brightness, almost as if it was being fed by a capacitor. But I don't have any capacitor connected, nor a resistor of any type. Like I said in the other post on energy (Science section)...this LED should be blown at 4V without an adequate resistor (usually 100ohm...but you can get away with 50ohm - pushing it...below that...the LED will blow). But I'm not using any resistors. It's just the LED and the stack.

This doesn't work in normal electronics. That's why in the video the guy was showing a 25V cell stack, a bigger LED lighting and his body completing the circuit itself!!! He'd be dead if it was normal electricity!

 

[Stravinsk]

@tango

This is the project you are building with a very big difference. Instead of just creating a voltaic pile of differing metal composition coins, and some electrolyte paper it involves a magnet on each cell, and specifically copper and zinc instead of just coins. Like I said, I couldn't find zinc, so I am working with zinc-plated steel. Zinc would be better.

I'm reading my cell now somewhere about 8 hours later. Still full brightness. Still reading less than 1mA current draw. This is not a reading one would get with the voltaic pile in the video. That has to be because of the magnets.

 

[tango]

I need to see if I can rustle up some materials and give it a go. I'd be fascinated if this kind of rig can power something more than an LED. If it can provide enough power to sustain personal electronic devices I'd be curious; if it can run even a small heater it would really be something.

 

[tango]

I spent some time clearing materials out of the room I'm working in. I'm starting to do some work on the ceiling so need to be able to move my ladder around as freely as possible, which isn't possible when I have lots of wood beams stacked. So now a lot of the wood beams are in the next room, which has turned into little more than a dumping ground for all the stuff I don't yet know what to do with.

A lot of the wood is old and difficult to find now, so I'm keeping that until I come up with a good use for it. When I've got more space finished I might make myself a desk with a nice 1.5" thick top, made of wood recovered from the house. That's a way down the line though. I've also got some random lengths of modern-ish 2x4s which have no particular value, but which I may be able to use to rig together something to hold materials at the top of the ladder, to make it easier for me to work at ceiling height. Along the way a temporary shelf I can attach to the ladder means I don't have to constantly climb up and down the ladder to swap out tools, get a fresh handful of screws etc.

 

[Stravinsk]

I need to see if I can rustle up some materials and give it a go. I'd be fascinated if this kind of rig can power something more than an LED. If it can provide enough power to sustain personal electronic devices I'd be curious; if it can run even a small heater it would really be something.

I have hopes of it doing more than all that. Course, more than one is needed for extra power. Just connect in series for more voltage. Seeing as I'm having trouble sourcing pure zinc, or at least a high alloy thereof, I'm still experimenting with combinations of other metals to get max output. My unit does as much as the guy in the videos (the first one), but his was .5mm and mine is 18mm....and I just figure I should get more grunt for it (course still not using zinc, so...).

The other thing to consider is a jacket for it. The moisture on the electrolyte has to be enough to facilitate ion exchange, but not too much that pressure causes it to spill over and short the stack. Then there is air, which gradually over time dehydrates that electrolyte...so some sort of insulation is needed. I noticed a decreased voltage just in a day due to this drying out effect. So I guess what I'm saying is expect a little tinkering. No company or corporation is going to do it for us. Tech that can run energy hungry devices on a mere fraction of what they would normally take doesn't fit the "for profit - human energy slave" paradigm that currently exists.

 

[tango]

I have hopes of it doing more than all that. Course, more than one is needed for extra power. Just connect in series for more voltage. Seeing as I'm having trouble sourcing pure zinc, or at least a high alloy thereof, I'm still experimenting with combinations of other metals to get max output. My unit does as much as the guy in the videos (the first one), but his was .5mm and mine is 18mm....and I just figure I should get more grunt for it (course still not using zinc, so...).

The other thing to consider is a jacket for it. The moisture on the electrolyte has to be enough to facilitate ion exchange, but not too much that pressure causes it to spill over and short the stack. Then there is air, which gradually over time dehydrates that electrolyte...so some sort of insulation is needed. I noticed a decreased voltage just in a day due to this drying out effect. So I guess what I'm saying is expect a little tinkering. No company or corporation is going to do it for us. Tech that can run energy hungry devices on a mere fraction of what they would normally take doesn't fit the "for profit - human energy slave" paradigm that currently exists.

I wouldn't expect a corporation to make it easy to do without their services. My curiosity is that if this experimental doodad can't provide enough power to be useful then it's not a lot of use, and if it has an expiry just like a battery then it's probably easier to just go and buy batteries.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find a way to power things that doesn't fit into the "metered supply = profit" paradigm of just about everything else these days. Let's face it, if corporations could charge us for the air we breathe you can be sure they would do it.

 

[Stravinsk]

I wouldn't expect a corporation to make it easy to do without their services. My curiosity is that if this experimental doodad can't provide enough power to be useful then it's not a lot of use, and if it has an expiry just like a battery then it's probably easier to just go and buy batteries.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find a way to power things that doesn't fit into the "metered supply = profit" paradigm of just about everything else these days. Let's face it, if corporations could charge us for the air we breathe you can be sure they would do it.

If and when you check my claims and see for yourself, would you ask why? Why is it this way? How is this possible, and why?

I don't know man. Sometimes I think I think too much about meanings. What does it mean? A current induces magnetism in a wire, and amplified magnetism in a coil. Magnets, when moved through a coil of wire, induce current. So I initially make the assumption that there are 2 forces at work in this context, at least as they relate to each other. 1 Current. 2 Magnetism.

And then I question that assumption. Perhaps instead it's 1/2's of a 1, instead of being 2. Meant to go together. But why?

But one must see for themselves. I perceive you have some understanding of the basics of electricity and some electronics. I know some things, but do not claim to be an expert in either. Studying it was a bit of a hobby to meet an end goal. Much like you I wager. But then I saw, that what I am witnessing cannot happen by known laws. I simply cannot run a certain voltage through a certain component without harnessing it and regulating the corresponding current/resistance to avoid harm to it. But then I witness with my own eyes this being done without harm.

It does not make sense unless there is an understanding that was meant to be understood and is not. By intention or accident.

 

[Messy]

20:50 pm waiting for the train. Had to print maps for someone who's blind, so it got a bit late. It's a cool printer with special paper. The things you print swell. I'm used to making em look good, but now it has to be practical.

 

[tango]

If and when you check my claims and see for yourself, would you ask why? Why is it this way? How is this possible, and why?

I didn't get as far as making anything and am wondering what would make it work. I know zinc is used in some batteries and anything to do with ions moving around sounds very much like a regular battery, hence my questions about how long it will last and what sort of power it can produce. Obviously you can't get as much power out of a CR2032 as you can with a car battery, and even a car battery will struggle to power even a small air conditioner for any length of time.

I don't know man. Sometimes I think I think too much about meanings. What does it mean? A current induces magnetism in a wire, and amplified magnetism in a coil. Magnets, when moved through a coil of wire, induce current. So I initially make the assumption that there are 2 forces at work in this context, at least as they relate to each other. 1 Current. 2 Magnetism.

I remember from my physics classes at school how you can generate a current by rotating a magnet inside a coil. From what I recall a lot of commercial energy generation is based on that, with the differences between methods ultimately coming down to what is used to turn the turbines. Hydroelectric uses the movement of water to turn a wheel. Wind turbines use the wind to turn the blades. Burning fuels heat water that then drives turbines. And whatever is spinning, creates the power. The rest of it is smoothing the power and transmitting it with as little loss as possible.

And then I question that assumption. Perhaps instead it's 1/2's of a 1, instead of being 2. Meant to go together. But why?

But one must see for themselves. I perceive you have some understanding of the basics of electricity and some electronics. I know some things, but do not claim to be an expert in either. Studying it was a bit of a hobby to meet an end goal. Much like you I wager. But then I saw, that what I am witnessing cannot happen by known laws. I simply cannot run a certain voltage through a certain component without harnessing it and regulating the corresponding current/resistance to avoid harm to it. But then I witness with my own eyes this being done without harm.

It does not make sense unless there is an understanding that was meant to be understood and is not. By intention or accident.

I'm no expert on how all this works. I have a somewhat rusty memory of my physics classes from a long time ago.

Where damage to components is concerned it's hard to say whether what is being described is significant. If an LED is designed to light at 3V I'd expect it to be bright at 4V but not necessarily destroyed. If you put 20V across it I'd expect it to be very bright for a very short time and then go forever dark.

Trying to pick what doesn't seem to make sense out from what isn't necessarily what the presenter says is part of the trickiness of it all.

 

[Stravinsk]

Where damage to components is concerned it's hard to say whether what is being described is significant. If an LED is designed to light at 3V I'd expect it to be bright at 4V but not necessarily destroyed. If you put 20V across it I'd expect it to be very bright for a very short time and then go forever dark.

Trying to pick what doesn't seem to make sense out from what isn't necessarily what the presenter says is part of the trickiness of it all.

It's not only whether or not it's damaged (which actually is significant), but why a power supply would allow it to run at far less current than it requires. This is the most significant part to me. Power ratings such that come in the form of Apply-X Voltage and X Current don't mean it won't work slightly above or below these numbers, but they do give a good indication of where the wiggle room is. 20mA isn't a whole lot of current and the difference between that and 1mA may seem insignificant, but one must consider the application. Even if I have a Voltage supply of 24V I won't be able to light an LED if I put so much resistance in series with it that current doesn't approach 20mA.

That said, whether I'm using 3V, 4V or 24V to light a 2V 20mA LED, in order to do so I still need to work within that wiggle area of about 20mA. This is done by choosing a resistance for the applied Voltage to limit current. Now if I don't apply any resistance and look down and see
the LED lighting at 500uA or even 1mA, this is huge, because it cannot do that within present understandings of electricity and electronics. And that is what I'm seeing.

 

[tango]

I guess the question would be, if you put so much resistance in series with the LED, whether the failure to light was because the current was too low or the voltage across the LED was too low.

If you have a 20V power supply and put a resistance of 39 times the resistance of the LED in series with the LED, the LED will only have 0.5V across it. So whether it would light dimly or not light at all would probably depend on just how the internals of it worked. Take away the series resistor and let the full 20V hit the LED and you'll probably get to buy another LED.

 

[Stravinsk]

I guess the question would be, if you put so much resistance in series with the LED, whether the failure to light was because the current was too low or the voltage across the LED was too low.

If you have a 20V power supply and put a resistance of 39 times the resistance of the LED in series with the LED, the LED will only have 0.5V across it. So whether it would light dimly or not light at all would probably depend on just how the internals of it worked. Take away the series resistor and let the full 20V hit the LED and you'll probably get to buy another LED.

One doesn't need such a wide gap in Voltage to fry the 2V 20mA LED. With no resistance in series with it at all, even 3V will fry it using any standard power supply.

 

[Messy]

Called lawyers and stuff the whole day cause the city let some company irritate me and now they demand 5000 in 2 weeks child support from the last 2 years, while the judge had put me on zero and now I'm sad, but I shouldnt whine when I read the horror stories men have to deal with.

 

[tango]

Tinkering with vinyl. Soundproofing material going onto walls and ceilings in my work room. It's tricky, but I rigged together a contraption that attaches to my ladder that makes it a whole lot easier to work with. Otherwise it would be very difficult to work with rolls of stuff that weigh 50lb when I'm trying to position things with quarter-inch accuracy and hold them still enough to screw them into place.

So far I've got about 250 square feet of it installed. My accuracy getting everything to align isn't quite as good as I'd hoped but I feared it being far worse. Of course being an older house nothing is quite straight, so it's not always easy to tell how much is down to my accuracy being slightly off and how much is due to the room not being perfectly square. Chances are it's a bit of both. A little trimming with a Stanley knife is likely to be needed before it's all said and done.