Interactive Religion?

[1689Dave]

Many view God as responding to them according to what they do in an interactive sense. They don’t consider that all God has ever done, happened in the times of creation. That God doesn’t respond to our choices, but instead determined our choices in creation. As scripture says, “Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.” Acts 15:18 (KJV 1900). Indeed, we exist, and only think and do what God planned for us in eternity, before he created time and the universe. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (KJV 1900)

Many think we have Free Will and that we determine our own lot in life by the choices we make. And that God interacts with us approving or disapproving of what we do. But nothing is further from the truth. God from eternity planned our lives and all that they entail before he set us in motion at creation, only to unfold and occupy our allotted time of life. “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” Ephesians 1:11 (KJV 1900)

Our will is not free from his eternal plan for us. Even our ancestry He planned in Adam as he produced the human race. We choose what we will, but God determines what we choose according to the reasons that He sends for us to bases our choices on. And in this manner the choices of all people remain on track as He planned until the end of creation.

This includes our ancestral lineage from its inception. Had one person in our lineage all the way back to Adam been different, we would not exist. But a person like a relative would occupy our space and time. And all people from that time forward would likewise be different. So as we understand that not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from our Father, nothing will change in the life He planned for us.

Prayer aligns us with God’s plan. Jesus says “Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.” Mark 11:24 (KJV 1900). The skill is in recognizing Holy Spirit faith that bears witness in your heart. Holy Spirit faith is not conjured up, it is present in your heart as evidence your prayers are answered. And that you are in line with God’s plan.

 

[rstrats]

Does that mean that He knows that if He were to create a person that He would eventually be casting that person into the lake of fire? And if so, why do you suppose He would go ahead and create the person anyway?

 

[1689Dave]

Does that mean that He knows that if He were to create a person that He would eventually be casting that person into the lake of fire? And if so, why do you suppose He would go ahead and create the person anyway?

Paul says God created all to display his mercy and wrath to the created order. Sin reveals his mercy and also his righteous judgment on the wicked. Without sin, we would not know anything about God's moral attributes.

 

[Albion]

Does that mean that He knows that if He were to create a person that He would eventually be casting that person into the lake of fire? And if so, why do you suppose He would go ahead and create the person anyway?

Yes, that is what these people think. Very few Christian churches agree with it, which may tell you something.

And then when the questions you asked are put to them, the rationale for their Predestinarian stance most often becomes something like "it shows God to be merciful. If he saves only one person out of a million, that's mercy since none of us deserves anything other than destruction."

And sometimes, they fall back upon the idea that for God to operate in that way is a tribute to his glory! See if either of those defenses makes any sense to you.

 

[1689Dave]

Most churches today have a limp wristed godling figure they call Jesus and worship. If only they would grab his limp wrist with their free wills he must submit to. But this is not the God of the bible. The Old Testament shows a God of wrath who hates sinners but justifies a few in Christ so he can justly save them.

 

[Josiah]

.

 

[1689Dave]

.

So why are not all saved if Jesus paid for the sins of all he supposedly died for?

 

[1689Dave]

Predestination according to the Westminster Confession Chapter Three.

1. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,b nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.c

a. Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17. • b. James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5. • c. Prov 16:33; Mat 17:12; John 19:11; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.b

a. 1 Sam 23:11-12; Mat 11:21, 23; Acts 15:18. • b. Rom 9:11, 13, 16, 18.

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.b

a. Mat 25:41; 1 Tim 5:21. • b. Prov 16:4; Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6.

4. These angels and men, thus predestinated and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.a

a. John 13:18; 2 Tim 2:19.

5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto;b and all to the praise of his glorious grace.c

a. Rom 8:30; Eph 1:4, 9, 11; 1 Thes 5:9; 2 Tim 1:9. • b. Rom 9:11, 13, 16; Eph 1:4, 9. • c. Eph 1:6, 12.

6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,b are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified,c and kept by his power through faith unto salvation.d Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.e

a. Eph 1:4-5; Eph 2:10; 2 Thes 2:13; 1 Pet 1:2. • b. 1 Thes 5:9-10; Titus 2:14. • c. Rom 8:30; Eph 1:5; 2 Thes 2:13. • d. 1 Pet 1:5. • e. John 6:64-65; 8:47; 10:26; 17:9; Rom 8:28-39; 1 John 2:19.

7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.a

a. Mat 11:25-26; Rom 9:17-18, 21-22; 2 Tim 2:19-20; 1 Pet 2:8; Jude 1:4.

8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.b So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;c and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.d

a. Deut 29:29; Rom 9:20. • b. 2 Pet 1:10. • c. Rom 11:33; Eph 1:6. • d. Luke 10:20; Rom 8:33; 11:5-6, 20; 2 Pet 1:10.

 

[Albion]

So why are not all saved if Jesus paid for the sins of all he supposedly died for?

You know, it's not easy for the rest of us, as Bible-believing Christians, to cut FAITH out of our understanding of the divine plan just like that.

 

[Josiah]

So why are not all saved if Jesus paid for the sins of all he supposedly died for?

Try reading John 3:16. If you do, you might notice it does NOT state, "For God so loved some unknown few people (odds are, not you) that He gave His only begotten Son to only an unknown few (odds are, not you) so that whether you believe in Christ or denounce Him and spit on Him, it just doesn't matter because you have eternal life either way since faith is irrelevant, moot, and don't matter,"

I don't know where you learned about justification, but you must have slept through the lesson about Sola Fide. And please don't even try to bring up your silly, absurd point that if faith is involved then we're synergistic, free-will Baptists.

Again (I've long lost count of how many times you've had this explained - although obviously you don't care about understanding)... IF all that mattered was the Cross, then I suppose a valid implication of Universal Atonement might be that all are justified but it's only some radical Calvinists who invented LIMITED Atonement that hold that only the Cross matters, those who hold to Universal Atonement believe that faith also matters. It's not Cross OR faith it's Cross AND faith.... Christ achieving it, faith embracing/applying/apprehending it.



.

 

[1689Dave]

Try reading John 3:16. If you do, you might notice it does NOT state, "For God so loved some unknown few people (odds are, not you) that He gave His only begotten Son to only an unknown few (odds are, not you) so that whether you believe in Christ or denounce Him and spit on Him, it just doesn't matter because you have eternal life either way since faith is irrelevant, moot, and don't matter,"

I don't know where you learned about justification, but you must have slept through the lesson about Sola Fide. And please don't even try to bring up your silly, absurd point that if faith is involved then we're synergistic, free-will Baptists.

Again (I've long lost count of how many times you've had this explained - although obviously you don't care about understanding)... IF all that mattered was the Cross, then I suppose a valid implication of Universal Atonement might be that all are justified but it's only some radical Calvinists who invented LIMITED Atonement that hold that only the Cross matters, those who hold to Universal Atonement believe that faith also matters. It's not Cross OR faith it's Cross AND faith.... Christ achieving it, faith embracing/applying/apprehending it.



.

World means several different things. You are forcing the wrong meaning onto it. If Christ paid for the sins of the world meaning each person, why do they pay for their sins in hell?

 

[Josiah]

World means several different things. You are forcing the wrong meaning onto it. If Christ paid for the sins of the world meaning each person, why do they pay for their sins in hell?

Funny how you are turning Predestination into Limited Atonement. The red herrings just never quit.

Questions are not substantiation for anything. But to play your little game (just this once), why did Jesus tell us to love our enemies if your enemies aren't loving you back? Have you ever done anything for anyone even though they don't deserve it and won't repay you?

But here again.... yet again... you are simply dismissing faith. Entirely. The Holy Spirit goofed when inspiring John 3:16. What He SHOULD have inspired is: "For God so loves only a few people (probably not you) so that He gave His Son for some unknown people (but odds are, not you) so that whether you believe in Him or repudiate Him and spit on Him, it couldn't matter less cuz faith don't matter, they have everlasting life." Now, you may think the Spirit should have inspired John 3:16 like that (and in many other places where faith is mentioned) but read the verse as it exists. Friend, faith is not irrelevant to personal justification. I think you need to ask your pastor about faith and if it does anything or is moot.

To use your "questions are proof, not answers" paradigm, if you buy a car for your son... but he doesn't accept it, why should he pay for the car he buys? If you give your son money to pay off his college debt, but he rejects that, why should he pay for his college debt?

 

[1689Dave]

Funny how you are turning Predestination into Limited Atonement. The red herrings just never quit.

Questions are not substantiation for anything. But to play your little game (just this once), why did Jesus tell us to love our enemies if your enemies aren't loving you back? Have you ever done anything for anyone even though they don't deserve it and won't repay you?

But here again.... yet again... you are simply dismissing faith. Entirely. The Holy Spirit goofed when inspiring John 3:16. What He SHOULD have inspired is: "For God so loves only a few people (probably not you) so that He gave His Son for some unknown people (but odds are, not you) so that whether you believe in Him or repudiate Him and spit on Him, it couldn't matter less cuz faith don't matter, they have everlasting life." Now, you may think the Spirit should have inspired John 3:16 like that (and in many other places where faith is mentioned) but read the verse as it exists. Friend, faith is not irrelevant to personal justification. I think you need to ask your pastor about faith and if it does anything or is moot.

To use your "questions are proof, not answers" paradigm, if you buy a car for your son... but he doesn't accept it, why should he pay for the car he buys? If you give your son money to pay off his college debt, but he rejects that, why should he pay for his college debt?

Scripture does not contradict itself. But these doctrines contradict you. They don't contradict Luther either. But he's from a bygone era.

 

[Josiah]

Scripture does not contradict itself. But these doctrines contradict you.

You entirely ignore everything written to you. You ignore the topic of the thread. Endless red herrings - just repeated endlessly. And the same questions that substantiate absolutely nothing repeated endlessly. All while ignoring everything written to you.


Here are the verses that state Universal Atonement - that Jesus die for all people, for everyone. And no, Scripture does not contradict itself - so as you've proven, there is not one verse that states Limited Atonement, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few." You're right, Scripture does not contradict itself.


Here are just some of the verses that state Universal Atonement: Jesus died "For all" "for everyone" "the whole world."


2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Here are the verses that state Limited Atonement - that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few...

Cricklets....



Now, IF you can, you might choose to post about the topic here, which is not limited atonement but predestination. But I don't think you will, that topic is just a red herring for the one you can't defend: Limited Atonement.


.

 

[1689Dave]

Y0u entirely ignore everything written to you. You ignore the topic of the thread.

Stop the red herrings.

Here are the verses that state the Jesus die for all people, for everyone. And no, Scripture does not contradict itself - so as you've proven, there is not one verse that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few."

I spent an hour or so answering your first post only to be wasted. If I thought your posts were true according to the rest of the scripture, I would have them in my library.

 

[rstrats]

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.










.

Any thoughts on what the death was that would otherwise have to be experienced by us?

 

[1689Dave]

Any thoughts on what the death was that would otherwise have to be experienced by us?

Jesus took the wrath of God in place of the elect so we will not experience total and final death in hell.

 

[rstrats]

Jesus took the wrath of God in place of the elect so we will not experience total and final death in hell.

That doesn't sound right. If the wrath amounted to total and final death in hell, how did the Messiah take it.? He was only dead for three days and three nights.

 

[1689Dave]

That doesn't sound right. If the wrath amounted to total and final death in hell, how did the Messiah take it.? He was only dead for three days and three nights.

God cannot die. He and the thief on the cross went to Paradise. Only his human body remained in the grave for 3 days. “Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:” Hebrews 10:5 (KJV 1900)

 

[rstrats]

God cannot die.

So you're now saying He didn't take the wrath that would otherwise have to be taken by the unsaved. You might want to edit your post #17 to correct your statement.