Why does Jugement Day remain if Jesus paid for everyone's Sins?

[Lamb]

The reason you do not have faith in limited atonement is that you refuse to believe the rest of the scriptures. You reject the source of faith found in the Bible.

Josiah introduced multiple scriptures to you and yet you refuse believe them. The loving God that we proclaim seems so different from the hateful one you talk about over and over again.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah introduced multiple scriptures to you and yet you refuse believe them. The loving God that we proclaim seems so different from the hateful one you talk about over and over again.

@Lamb

Of course, we hold that faith is 100% completely, totally, wholly the work and gift of God. NO dead, unregenerate, totally deprived athetistic enemy of God can create faith and give it to self.

But Dave (like some other radical, extremist Anti-Calvin Reformed) simply eliminate faith. Thus their constant montra: If Jesus died for all then all are saved. That's ONLY true if faith has no role in personal justification, if faith is just a meaningless, useless, joke... if the ONLY factor is whether Jesus died for you or not. Their whole apologetic is founded on a heresy: that faith is irrelevant, ALL that matters is the death of Christ. It's just one of his heresies.

But as I commented to you awhile back in another thread, here's the problem that Dave and Doran have: ALL this horrible repudiation of the Gospel was framed as a reaction/response to some equally radical Arminianists. And the whole argument entirely falls on its face if the audience is not Arminianists. And I'd guess 95% of those who agree with God that Jesus died for all are not Arminianists. So, they are just doing a copy/paste (both poorly!!!!) of the old, worn, almost entirely rejected spin AGAINST Arminianites (the free will folks) - and no one TRYING to discuss this with them is. But they can't discuss this with US because they haven't thought this through for themselves and are just reguritating (blindly) a whole apologetic - not a word of which applies to us (and of course, not a word of it is biblical).

I hope you had time for the two videos I shared (or will soon).



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[1689Dave]

Josiah introduced multiple scriptures to you and yet you refuse believe them. The loving God that we proclaim seems so different from the hateful one you talk about over and over again.

You can make portions of scripture say whatever you want. This is the universal atonement method. But if you study what all the pertinent scriptures say, you will believe in limited atonement too, providing you are born again.

 

[1689Dave]

@Lamb

Of course, we hold that faith is 100% completely, totally, wholly the work and gift of God. NO dead, unregenerate, totally deprived athetistic enemy of God can create faith and give it to self.

But Dave (like some other radical, extremist Anti-Calvin Reformed) simply eliminate faith. Thus their constant montra: If Jesus died for all then all are saved. That's ONLY true if faith has no role in personal justification, if faith is just a meaningless, useless, joke... if the ONLY factor is whether Jesus died for you or not. Their whole apologetic is founded on a heresy: that faith is irrelevant, ALL that matters is the death of Christ. It's just one of his heresies.

But as I commented to you awhile back in another thread, here's the problem that Dave and Doran have: ALL this horrible repudiation of the Gospel was framed as a reaction/response to some equally radical Arminianists. And the whole argument entirely falls on its face if the audience is not Arminianists. And I'd guess 95% of those who agree with God that Jesus died for all are not Arminianists. So, they are just doing a copy/paste (both poorly!!!!) of the old, worn, almost entirely rejected spin AGAINST Arminianites (the free will folks) - and no one TRYING to discuss this with them is. But they can't discuss this with US because they haven't thought this through for themselves and are just reguritating (blindly) a whole apologetic - not a word of which applies to us (and of course, not a word of it is biblical).

I hope you had time for the two videos I shared (or will soon).



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You need all the scriptures, not just a scrapbook of favorites to support your views. You cannot have faith apart from scripture and you refuse to read most of the Limited Atonement passages. And whatever is not of faith is sin.

 

[Josiah]

You refuse to read most of the Limited Atonement passages

Because you haven't given any.

Don't waste our time with questions, heresies (such as denying faith), or the many, many Scriptures you've offered that nowhere state your horrible invention. Just quote the ones that state your terrible position, the ones that state: "No, Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for some few." If there is no "ONLY" than your "ONLY" theory is missing.



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[1689Dave]

Because you haven't given any.

Don't waste our time with questions, heresies (such as denying faith), or the many, many Scriptures you've offered that nowhere state your horrible invention. Just quote the ones that state your terrible position, the ones that state: "No, Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for some few." If there is no "ONLY" than your "ONLY" theory is missing.



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Have you ever studied the topic before condemning it? You should know all the pertinent scriptures.

 

[Josiah]

You should know all the pertinent scriptures.

I can't. No one supporting that horrible invention has yet found any Scripture that states it.

But be the first. Make a name for yourself!

"No, Jesus did not die for all but only for some few."

All you do is quote Scriptures that nowhere remotely state that. You either have to CHANGE the verse by deleting, changing or adding words (then, bingo, your terrible invention appears by you CHANGING the verse) or (more often) you just quote something and hope we don't notice that your invention is completely missing from the verse. You can't find any Scripture that states your view because it's not there. Obviously. Even you know that, I'm sure. So stop wasting our time.



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[1689Dave]

I can't. No one supporting that horrible invention has yet found any Scripture that states it.

But be the first. Make a name for yourself!

"No, Jesus did not die for all but only for some few."

All you do is quote Scriptures that nowhere remotely state that. You either have to CHANGE the verse by deleting, changing or adding words (then, bingo, your terrible invention appears by you CHANGING the verse) or (more often) you just quote something and hope we don't notice that your invention is completely missing from the verse. You can't find any Scripture that states your view because it's not there. Obviously. Even you know that, I'm sure. So stop wasting our time.



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You are looking in all the wrong places. Do you have any books by Luther?

 

[Stravinsk]

It seems to me there is a lot of back and forth between individuals on what Christians always argue about: The state of their salvation or the state of other's salvation. The variables thrown in are:

Faith/mere "intellectual assent"
Baptism (full/partial immersion and/or the wording used at such and possibly even consenting age (leaving out infant baptism))
The role of atonement and it's application to individuals

These are the weapons frequently used for various persons to use some form of "no true Scotsman" fallacy in the context of Christianity - to "prove" either they are true and/or that someone else is false.

Now regarding judgement day, reading Revelation 20, I see nothing involving these variables AT ALL. The dead are judged according to what? To what they have done (by extension, what they have said ref Matthew 12:36). If we are going by the Lord's Prayer as a guide, the act of forgiving and the act of repenting (of any evil deeds) are included.

Nothing here about faith (in a particular dogma), baptism or the role of blood atonement.

 

[1689Dave]

It seems to me there is a lot of back and forth between individuals on what Christians always argue about: The state of their salvation or the state of other's salvation. The variables thrown in are:

Faith/mere "intellectual assent"
Baptism (full/partial immersion and/or the wording used at such and possibly even consenting age (leaving out infant baptism))
The role of atonement and it's application to individuals

These are the weapons frequently used for various persons to use some form of "no true Scotsman" fallacy in the context of Christianity - to "prove" either they are true and/or that someone else is false.

Now regarding judgement day, reading Revelation 20, I see nothing involving these variables AT ALL. The dead are judged according to what? To what they have done (by extension, what they have said ref Matthew 12:36). If we are going by the Lord's Prayer as a guide, the act of forgiving and the act of repenting (of any evil deeds) are included.

Nothing here about faith (in a particular dogma), baptism or the role of blood atonement.

So the truth is not important? Ignore scripture, it doesn't matter?

 

[Stravinsk]

So the truth is not important? Ignore scripture, it doesn't matter?

Most "followers of Christ" ignore plain statements such as those I highlighted in Revelation (which is the subject of this thread) and those of Christ such as "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments"

...in favor of other statements, specifically those made by the murderer Paul/Saul of Tarsus.

Why is that Dave? Let me venture a guess....

It's much easier to believe the gospel Paul/Saul preached than the gospel Christ preached. And with that, comes all the arrogance of the assumptions of election, arguments about baptism, having "real faith" instead of "fake intellectual faith" and the rest. You see, along with most others here, Christ through the eyes of a murderer, and believe his "special revelation" over and above the witness of the actual apostles who traveled with him. But Paul's words are in your bible, so they must be God-breathed, right? Might I remind you what church organized that canon of Scripture for you?

 

[1689Dave]

Most "followers of Christ" ignore plain statements such as those I highlighted in Revelation (which is the subject of this thread) and those of Christ such as "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments"

...in favor of other statements, specifically those made by the murderer Paul/Saul of Tarsus.

Why is that Dave? Let me venture a guess....

It's much easier to believe the gospel Paul/Saul preached than the gospel Christ preached. And with that, comes all the arrogance of the assumptions of election, arguments about baptism, having "real faith" instead of "fake intellectual faith" and the rest. You see, along with most others here, Christ through the eyes of a murderer, and believe his "special revelation" over and above the witness of the actual apostles who traveled with him. But Paul's words are in your bible, so they must be God-breathed, right? Might I remind you what church organized that canon of Scripture for you?

Jesus and Paul preached the same gospel.

 

[Stravinsk]

Jesus and Paul preached the same gospel.

LOL.

 

[1689Dave]

LOL.

Can you prove they did not?

 

[Stravinsk]

Can you prove they did not?

Way beyond the scope of this thread. But, yes, and it's already been done by men far more competent than me.

For such a bible banger, I should be surprised you see 0 difference between the messages of Christ in the Gospels and those of Paul, but alas...I am not. I cannot think of a mainstream church that steals, on a regular basis, the message(s) of Christ by quoting Paul on a regular basis. Every church I ever attended did the same. The Gospels were read but all the major talking points were about what Sheol (Hebrew for death/the grave/Hell btw) had to say.

 

[1689Dave]

Way beyond the scope of this thread. But, yes, and it's already been done by men far more competent than me.

For such a bible banger, I should be surprised you see 0 difference between the messages of Christ in the Gospels and those of Paul, but alas...I am not. I cannot think of a mainstream church that steals, on a regular basis, the message(s) of Christ by quoting Paul on a regular basis.

Really........... Have you ever read the Bible through? At least once?

 

[Stravinsk]

Really........... Have you ever read the Bible through? At least once?

Been studying it all my life. Not just the English either. I have a Concordance and I regularly look into the Greek and Hebrew when questions about meaning arise. I was raised in Christian Churches and attended through a good deal of my younger adult life. After I left, I didn't stop studying. But leaving did leave me free to study without the hindrance of church people's social acceptance.

Btw - did you read the rest of my edited post?

 

[1689Dave]

Been studying it all my life. Not just the English either. I have a Concordance and I regularly look into the Greek and Hebrew when questions about meaning arise. I was raised in Christian Churches and attended through a good deal of my younger adult life. After I left, I didn't stop studying. But leaving did leave me free to study without the hindrance of church people's social acceptance.

Impressive.