A Catholic perspective on Limited Atonement and Universal Atonement arguments.

[MoreCoffee]

Since @1689Dave seems to be out of the Trinitarian forums, I thought I'd create a thread here for the never ending debate on atonement theories.

 

[1689Dave]

Thanks, friend!

 

[1689Dave]

I would like to see Jesus proven wrong by Universal Atonement buffs, once and for all. These are his words only.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

 

[MoreCoffee]

I would like to see Jesus proven wrong once and for all. These are his words only.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

Is it possible, @1689Dave, that a person can become one of Christ's sheep from a state where he/she was not one of Christ's sheep before?

 

[1689Dave]

Is it possible, @1689Dave, that a person can become one of Christ's sheep from a state where he/she was not one of Christ's sheep before?

Not really. Believers have eternal life, always part of God's eternal plan. The rest are damned but hate God anyway and love their sin more. It's not like God kicking someone who wants to be saved in the face and telling them to go to hell. Only the elect want to be saved, the rest do not.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not really. Believers have eternal life, always part of God's eternal plan. The rest are damned but hate God anyway and love their sin more. It's not like God kicking someone who wants to be saved in the face and telling them to go to hell. Only the elect want to be saved, the rest do not.

But do people change? Can someone who doesn't believe become a believer?

 

[1689Dave]

But do people change? Can someone who doesn't believe become a believer?

No. Their communication with God no longer exists after the sin of Adam. They are spiritually dead and cannot discern God. Paul says ; “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900) He says they are made up of this: “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19–21 (KJV 1900)

Jeremiah says the same: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Jeremiah 17:9 (KJV 1900)

“And he [Jesus] said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.” Mark 7:20–23 (KJV 1900)

If you notice, nothing in a person would seek fellowship with God.

Jesus says instead, all that the Father gives to me will come to me. Only these believe in Christ and want to be saved.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You believe that conversion is impossible?

 

[1689Dave]

You believe that conversion is impossible?

The reprobate hate God. Consider. This is the condition of the saved person. “For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.” Galatians 5:17 (KJV 1900) If you remove the Spirit returning the soul to its natural state, nothing there would aspire to God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The reprobate hate God. Consider. This is the condition of the saved person. “For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.” Galatians 5:17 (KJV 1900) If you remove the Spirit returning the soul to its natural state, nothing there would aspire to God.

What of yourself, did you go from unbelief to belief at any time in your life?

 

[1689Dave]

What of yourself, did you go from unbelief to belief at any time in your life?

Here's my story.

God made my salvation known to me when I was 20. The Lord converted me over a period of 3 days. I began telling people that I didn't know what was going on but I think Christ is real and he is dealing with me.

The joy of the Holy Spirit and God's love had become real and excited me. And I didn’t want it to stop but feared that it might. On the evening of the 3rd day, my happiness turned into remorse. God convicted me of sins I didn't even know existed. I began praying, sobbing, and asking his forgiveness. I fell asleep exhausted and in tears, only to awake the next day absolutely convinced Christ is real and had saved me.

I had never been so excited about anything. I began telling friends and others. I saw a whole string of conversions in and around people I knew. They believed me and wanted in on it too. None of us were churched, so we began experimenting with going to different churches. We and our girls rattled a few churches with our enthusiasm.

Later, not wanting to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers, I gave up my career and began living the sermon on the mount (Matthew 6:24-34). Seeking first the kingdom of God as a career. To make a long story short, I began working unskilled labor part-time as unto the Lord. And retired early, many years later out of my own pocket, never missing a day's work or needing public assistance. Even thru two major recessions and job closings. The Lord is faithful.

 

[MoreCoffee]

converted me over a period of 3 days

so you were converted, went from death to life?

 

[1689Dave]

so you were converted, went from death to life?

Yes. I didn't know what was happening to me but was thrilled by it. It wasn't until years later that I broke free from the Universal Atonement churches and understood my experience through my Limited Atonement studies.

 

[MoreCoffee]

But do people change? Can someone who doesn't believe become a believer?

No. Their communication with God no longer exists after the sin of Adam. They are spiritually dead and cannot discern God. Paul says ; “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900) He says they are made up of this: “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19–21 (KJV 1900)

Jeremiah says the same: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Jeremiah 17:9 (KJV 1900)

“And he [Jesus] said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.” Mark 7:20–23 (KJV 1900)

If you notice, nothing in a person would seek fellowship with God.

Jesus says instead, all that the Father gives to me will come to me. Only these believe in Christ and want to be saved.

You believe that conversion is impossible?

The reprobate hate God. Consider. This is the condition of the saved person. “For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.” Galatians 5:17 (KJV 1900) If you remove the Spirit returning the soul to its natural state, nothing there would aspire to God.

Here's my story.

God made my salvation known to me when I was 20. The Lord converted me over a period of 3 days. I began telling people that I didn't know what was going on but I think Christ is real and he is dealing with me.

The joy of the Holy Spirit and God's love had become real and excited me. And I didn’t want it to stop but feared that it might. On the evening of the 3rd day, my happiness turned into remorse. God convicted me of sins I didn't even know existed. I began praying, sobbing, and asking his forgiveness. I fell asleep exhausted and in tears, only to awake the next day absolutely convinced Christ is real and had saved me.

I had never been so excited about anything. I began telling friends and others. I saw a whole string of conversions in and around people I knew. They believed me and wanted in on it too. None of us were churched, so we began experimenting with going to different churches. We and our girls rattled a few churches with our enthusiasm.

Later, not wanting to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers, I gave up my career and began living the sermon on the mount (Matthew 6:24-34). Seeking first the kingdom of God as a career. To make a long story short, I began working unskilled labor part-time as unto the Lord. And retired early, many years later out of my own pocket, never missing a day's work or needing public assistance. Even thru two major recessions and job closings. The Lord is faithful.

It's contradictory isn't it? To assert that conversion is impossible and then tell your own story of conversion.

 

[1689Dave]

It's contradictory isn't it? To assert that conversion is impossible and then tell your own story of conversion.

God converts the person through regeneration. People cannot convert themselves. Unless a man is born again, he cannot see nor enter the present spiritual kingdom of God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

God converts the person through regeneration. People cannot convert themselves. Unless a man is born again, he cannot see nor enter the present spiritual kingdom of God.

It must be a constant labour for you to redefine words until they mean what you require.

 

[1689Dave]

It must be a constant labour for you to redefine words until they mean what you require.

I keep hitting those nerves and I know it hurts. But a love of the truth will set you free and will avoid the strong delusion God sends on those who lack it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It must be a constant labour for you to redefine words until they mean what you require.

Catholic teaching is that Catholics receive baptism from God acting through the Church (body of Christ). One receives baptism passively. One does not baptise one's self. This is in keeping with Christ's word to Nicodemus - Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Do you understand this, @1689Dave?

 

[1689Dave]

Catholic teaching is that Catholics receive baptism from God acting through the Church (body of Christ). One receives baptism passively. One does not baptise one's self. This is in keeping with Christ's word to Nicodemus - Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Do you understand this, @1689Dave?

That's fine but not mentioned in scripture.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That's fine but not mentioned in scripture.

It is in fact explicit in scripture.

1. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28:19
2. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

Catholic teaching is that Catholics receive baptism from God acting through the Church (body of Christ). One receives baptism passively. One does not baptise one's self.1 This is in keeping with Christ's word to Nicodemus - Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.2 Do you understand this, 1689Dave?

The underlined text comes from scripture. Number 1 tells the reader that one is baptised by those whom Christ sent and that is what 1 in the quote says. And 2 is a direct quote from scripture.

You're a wonder of inconsistency, 1689Dave, here you are a man who has spent decades reading theology and from the scriptures, yet you do not recognise allusion to scripture and direct quotes from scripture. Why is it so, 1689Dave? What blinds you so? Are you so fixed in opposition to the teaching of the Catholic Church that you cannot see scripture when it is quoted as Catholic teaching?