Why does Jugement Day remain if Jesus paid for everyone's Sins?

[1689Dave]

Including the sin of unbelief, or resisting him?

 

[1689Dave]

The answer is: Jesus paid for the sins of the elect only. The simple truth of Judgment Day proves that he did not pay for the sins of most.

 

[Josiah]

We don't embrace your heresy of repudiating faith.

You hold that if Jesus died for all then all are personally justified - completely eliminating any role for faith.

Because we are not heretics on this, we agree with the BIble, the Creeds, the Fathers, the Councils and 2000 years of Christian faith that Christ died for all, but not are given faith - BOTH are essential to personal justification and BOTH are the work and gift of God.

John 3:16 reads, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life." You seem to hold that all that is wrong, and verse should state, "For God loves just a tiny few people (and He won't say which) that He gave His only begotten Son just to those few (and you won't be given a list of who that is) so that whether they believe in what He did or spit in His face, repudiate Him and denounce Him, it just doesn't matter cuz faith is a joke and irrelevant."


We've been through this COUNTLESS times. You've admitted (and proven) you don't read a lot of the posts written to you; it's even pretty clear you don't read your own posts. You don't consider anything, you clearly don't consider yourself potentially wrong. You don't seem to give a rip what anyone says - INCLUDING GOD - you just ignore the words and impose your "interpretation" (which actually is just repudiation and denial) - in order to twist the verse in radical, extreme ways so that they actually "MEAN" the exact opposite of what God said. Discussion with you is impossible. You have destroyed ANY credibility.




.

 

[1689Dave]

We don't embrace your heresy of repudiating faith.

You hold that if Jesus died for all then all are personally justified - completely eliminating any role for faith.

Because we are not heretics on this, we agree with the BIble, the Creeds, the Fathers, the Councils and 2000 years of Christian faith that Christ died for all, but not are given faith - BOTH are essential to personal justification and BOTH are the work and gift of God.

John 3:16 reads, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life." You seem to hold that all that is wrong, and verse should state, "For God loves just a tiny few people (and He won't say which) that He gave His only begotten Son just to those few (and you won't be given a list of who that is) so that whether they believe in what He did or spit in His face, repudiate Him and denounce Him, it just doesn't matter cuz faith is a joke and irrelevant."


We've been through this COUNTLESS times. You've admitted (and proven) you don't read a lot of the posts written to you; it's even pretty clear you don't read your own posts. You don't consider anything, you clearly don't consider yourself potentially wrong. You don't seem to give a rip what anyone says - INCLUDING GOD - you just ignore the words and impose your "interpretation" (which actually is just repudiation and denial) - in order to twist the verse in radical, extreme ways so that they actually "MEAN" the exact opposite of what God said. Discussion with you is impossible. You have destroyed ANY credibility.




.

You cannot have faith unless you are saved. It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. What you call faith is "mental assent", a work of the flesh that cannot save.

 

[1689Dave]

We don't embrace your heresy of repudiating faith.

You hold that if Jesus died for all then all are personally justified - completely eliminating any role for faith.

Because we are not heretics on this, we agree with the BIble, the Creeds, the Fathers, the Councils and 2000 years of Christian faith that Christ died for all, but not are given faith - BOTH are essential to personal justification and BOTH are the work and gift of God.

John 3:16 reads, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life." You seem to hold that all that is wrong, and verse should state, "For God loves just a tiny few people (and He won't say which) that He gave His only begotten Son just to those few (and you won't be given a list of who that is) so that whether they believe in what He did or spit in His face, repudiate Him and denounce Him, it just doesn't matter cuz faith is a joke and irrelevant."


We've been through this COUNTLESS times. You've admitted (and proven) you don't read a lot of the posts written to you; it's even pretty clear you don't read your own posts. You don't consider anything, you clearly don't consider yourself potentially wrong. You don't seem to give a rip what anyone says - INCLUDING GOD - you just ignore the words and impose your "interpretation" (which actually is just repudiation and denial) - in order to twist the verse in radical, extreme ways so that they actually "MEAN" the exact opposite of what God said. Discussion with you is impossible. You have destroyed ANY credibility.




.

How do you tell if your faith is real? The first test might be: if you must choose to believe, it's not real faith. It is intellectual assent, decided upon as a work of Free Will, that is, the flesh. It cannot save. You will end up trusting in your "faith" instead of Christ. Luther makes this clear in his book Bondage of the Will.

Martin Luther says; First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only.

For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and do not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation.

But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such an one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved.

These things, therefore, are openly proclaimed for the sake of the Elect: that, being by these means humbled and brought down to nothing, they might be saved.

The rest resist this humiliation; nay, they condemn the teaching of self-desperation; they wish to have left a little something that they may do themselves. These secretly remain proud, and adversaries to the grace of God. This, I say, is one reason—that those who fear God, being humbled, might know, call upon, and receive the grace of God.[1]

Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther

---

[1] Martin Luther. (n.d.). The Bondage of the Will.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Including the sin of unbelief, or resting him?

The answer is: Jesus paid for the sins of the elect only. The simple truth of Judgment Day proves that he did not pay for the sins of most.

Yes Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
You offer an interpretation.
Scripture offers inspiration.
Let the elect receive the Word of God incarnate so that they can believe the word written:

On the next day, John saw Jesus coming toward him, and so he said: "Behold, the Lamb of God. Behold, he who takes away the sin of the world. This is the one about whom I said, "After me arrives a man, who has been placed ahead of me, because he existed before me." And I did not know him. Yet it is for this reason that I come baptizing with water: so that he may be made manifest in Israel." And John offered testimony, saying: "For I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove; and he remained upon him. And I did not know him. But he who sent me to baptize with water said to me: "He over whom you will see the Spirit descending and remaining upon him, this is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit." And I saw, and I gave testimony: that this one is the Son of God."​

John 1:29-34

Who are the elect of God, everyone who believes.
Can a person move from unbelief to belief?

Jesus also accomplished many other signs in the sight of his disciples. These have not been written in this book. But these things have been written, so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and so that, in believing, you may have life in his name.​

John 20:30-31

 

[1689Dave]

Yes Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
You offer an interpretation.
Scripture offers inspiration.
Let the elect receive the Word of God incarnate so that they can believe the word written:

On the next day, John saw Jesus coming toward him, and so he said: "Behold, the Lamb of God. Behold, he who takes away the sin of the world. This is the one about whom I said, "After me arrives a man, who has been placed ahead of me, because he existed before me." And I did not know him. Yet it is for this reason that I come baptizing with water: so that he may be made manifest in Israel." And John offered testimony, saying: "For I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove; and he remained upon him. And I did not know him. But he who sent me to baptize with water said to me: "He over whom you will see the Spirit descending and remaining upon him, this is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit." And I saw, and I gave testimony: that this one is the Son of God."​

John 1:29-34

Who are the elect of God, everyone who believes.
Can a person move from unbelief to belief?

Jesus also accomplished many other signs in the sight of his disciples. These have not been written in this book. But these things have been written, so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and so that, in believing, you may have life in his name.​

John 20:30-31

But Judgement Day says you don't understand. If he paid for everyone's sins, there is nothing left to judge.

 

[1689Dave]

God so loved the world refers to His promise to Abraham of blessings for the whole world. But the constraint is Israel. Salvation is only for the Jews. So it speaks of God breaking off the unbelieving Jews and grafting believing gentiles into their place. So the number broken off was only a portion of Israel. Which means only a portion of gentiles will be grafted into their place.

 

[MoreCoffee]

But Judgement Day says you don't understand. If he paid for everyone's sins, there is nothing left to judge.

If everyone was predestined to death except those who are predestined to life, then no last judgement is needed.

 

[1689Dave]

If everyone was predestined to death except those who are predestined to life, then no last judgement is needed.

Not true. God's wrath is glorified in their judgment and eternal suffering. Just as the elect glorify his mercy.

 

[MoreCoffee]

God so loved the world refers to His promise to Abraham of blessings for the whole world. But the constraint is Israel. Salvation is only for the Jews. So it speaks of God breaking off the unbelieving Jews and grafting believing gentiles into their place. So the number broken off was only a portion of Israel. Which means only a portion of gentiles will be grafted into their place.

If the theory that you're advocating were true and obvious, as you claim it is, then you would not need to redefine 'world' in so many passages because God wouldn't be so sloppy with words would he? Being infinitely wise, and being truth, as well as love and justice God would communicate unambiguously. But if God intends world to be taken at face value and really wants the whole world to benefit from the cleaning death of Jesus Christ he would say so, as he does in 1 John 2:2

My little sons, this I write to you, so that you may not sin. But if anyone has sinned, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just One. And he is the propitiation for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for those of the whole world. And we can be sure that we have known him by this: if we observe his commandments. Whoever claims that he knows him, and yet does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps his word, truly in him the charity of God is perfected. And by this we know that we are in him. Whoever declares himself to remain in him, ought to walk just as he himself walked.​

1 John 2:1-6

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not true. God's wrath is glorified in their judgment and eternal suffering. Just as the elect glorify his mercy.

That reply is just a rationalisation of the belief you've advocated.

 

[1689Dave]

That reply is just a rationalisation of the belief you've advocated.

Paul spells it out clearly in Romans and Ephesians. We cannot know God apart from sin. No sin, no righteousness. No sin, no mercy. No sin, no justice, and so on. If you would like to debate it, we can set up a thread.

 

[1689Dave]

John 10 shows that Jesus did not die for the Pharisees in his audience and that is why they did not believe.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

 

[1689Dave]

John 10 shows that Jesus did not die for the Pharisees in his audience and that is why they did not believe.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

So how exactly are those Jesus is said to have died for saved? Notice, preachers hope you will never ask and pursue this question. Because it implicates them in teaching salvation by works that cannot save. Notice, none will answer it on this board. They will copy and paste disrespectful icons, but cannot answer without exposing their flawed theology.

 

[1689Dave]

The flawed reasoning behind Universal Atonement. Pauls says: “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

But they try to say the word speaks faith into this guy's heart which Paul already says he will hear as foolishness. Moreover, “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3 (KJV 1900) So unless born again, this guy cannot grasp let alone believe the gospel of the Kingdom.

 

[1689Dave]

A major flaw in the Formula of Concord is 3. Free Will:

2 1. Concerning this subject, our doctrine, faith, and confession is, that in spiritual things the understanding and reason of man are [altogether] blind, and by their own powers understand nothing, as it is written 1 Cor. 2:14: The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them when he is examined concerning spiritual things.

(bait and switch)

God the Holy Ghost, however, does not effect conversion without means, but uses for this purpose the preaching and hearing of God’s Word, as it is written Rom. 1:16: The Gospel is the power of God 5 unto salvation to every one that believeth. Also Rom. 10:17: Faith cometh by hearing of the Word of God. And it is God’s will that His Word should be heard, and that man’s ears should not be closed.

So they say the natural man who cannot receive the things of God [the means when presented].... receives them.

Jesus says, unless a man is born-again, he cannot see or enter the kingdom of God here now.

 

[Lamb]

A major flaw in the Formula of Concord is 3. Free Will:

2 1. Concerning this subject, our doctrine, faith, and confession is, that in spiritual things the understanding and reason of man are [altogether] blind, and by their own powers understand nothing, as it is written 1 Cor. 2:14: The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them when he is examined concerning spiritual things.

(bait and switch)

God the Holy Ghost, however, does not effect conversion without means, but uses for this purpose the preaching and hearing of God’s Word, as it is written Rom. 1:16: The Gospel is the power of God 5 unto salvation to every one that believeth. Also Rom. 10:17: Faith cometh by hearing of the Word of God. And it is God’s will that His Word should be heard, and that man’s ears should not be closed.

So they say the natural man who cannot receive the things of God [the means when presented].... receives them.

Jesus says, unless a man is born-again, he cannot see or enter the kingdom of God here now.

There seems to be a misunderstanding on your part concerning what this document says. The document is insisting that MAN doesn't have a role to play, it's all God's doing.

 

[1689Dave]

There seems to be a misunderstanding on your part concerning what this document says. The document is insisting that MAN doesn't have a role to play, it's all God's doing.

But the natural man cannot discern their "means" where they contradict Paul by saying he can.

 

[Lamb]

But the natural man cannot discern their "means" where they contradict Paul by saying he can.

There is no contradiction.