Why Universal Atonement is Pelagianism.

[1689Dave]

Please don't attack others.

Einstein said that and I presented it for his benefit. I live by it. Notice how brief I am and clear as a bell.

 

[Lamb]

Einstein said that and I presented it for his benefit. I live by it. Notice how brief I am and clear as a bell.

You're addressing the way a person posts here instead of his belief system. I'm telling you as site admin to stop.

 

[1689Dave]

“The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.” Psalm 5:5 (KJV 1900)

John 3:16 does not mean people as the world. They are all born workers of iniquity God hates,

 

[Josiah]

If you cannot speak the truth in a few words

Here is my position: Jesus died for all.

There are several Scriptures that EXACTLY state that. Verbatim, flat-out, in black-and-white words my four-year-old can read and understand. For over 1500 years, all Christians accepted what God said and unlike your radical, extremist, anti-Calvin heroes had no need to contradict God. It's the position of John Calvin and most Calvinists, it's the position of the Church Fathers and a Church Council, it's the position of the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, the Anglican Church and virtually all churches except for a hand full of TINY Reformed denominations. It's simple. It's just 4 words: Jesus died for all.

God hardened their hearts and blinded their eyes and sent them to hell.

They are dead and cannot hear God speak.

You just can't stop the red herrings.... You MUST keep changing the subject because you can't defend your horrible position, your denial and contradiction of what God says. Because you have nothing, you must change the subject to something you can defend. As everyone including you knows, this thread is not about faith, it's not about whether God gives faith to all, it's about whether the Bible is telling the truth when it so often verbatim states that Jesus died for all.

They are dead and cannot hear God speak.

Yes. You hold that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some few. It's just you can't find any Scripture that states that. Nor any Church Father or Church Council or anyone before some radical, extremist men who repudiated Calvin on this point; you have nothing. Just logical fallacies, endless attempts to change the subject away from your position to evade any defense, and proof that Scripture never states what you do. Worse, you also seem to impose a heresy that faith is irrelevant to personal justification.




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[1689Dave]

Here is my position: Jesus died for all.

There are several Scriptures that EXACTLY state that. Verbatim, flat-out, in black-and-white words my four-year-old can read and understand. For over 1500 years, all Christians accepted what God said and unlike your radical, extremist, anti-Calvin heroes had no need to contradict God. It's the position of John Calvin and most Calvinists, it's the position of the Church Fathers and a Church Council, it's the position of the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, the Anglican Church and virtually all churches except for a hand full of TINY Reformed denominations. It's simple. It's just 4 words: Jesus died for all.






You just can't stop the red herrings.... You MUST keep changing the subject because you can't defend your horrible position, your denial and contradiction of what God says. As everyone including you knows, this thread is not about faith, it's not about whether God gives faith to all, it's about whether the Bible is telling the truth when it so often verbatim states that Jesus died for all.



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Jesus purchased the church with his blood, proving you wrong. He died for many, but not everyone. Did he pay for our sins? If for everyone, all are saved which is obviously false.

Think about the flood. God so loved the world that he killed everyone on the planet except Noah and his fam. Why? because he loved the world and used Noah to preserve it. Does he love today's sinners? No, He hates sinners. “The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.” Psalm 5:5 (KJV 1900) John 3:16 does not mean people as the world. They are all born workers of iniquity God hates,

The world he loves is in the New Heaven and earth where the many saved in this world will thrive forever.

 

[Josiah]

He died for many, but not everyone.

Just quote the Scripture that states, "Jesus did not die for everyone." Just quote those words.

Here's what God states, Hebrews 2:9 " But we see Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."

So, Dave, why is God wrong and you are right? You claim Jesus did not die for everyone and God says He did. So, why should we believe you in stead of God?

Did he pay for our sins? If for everyone, all are saved

Thus your persistent heresy of repudiating faith. Your apologetic here relies ENTIRELY, WHOLLY, on faith being a joke, irrelevant, having nothing to do with personal justification. It is the repudiation of the SOLA FIDE part of personal justification.

Just as your view mandate that God is SO often wrong when He states that Jesus died for all, here your view mandates that God is SO often wrong when He states that there must be faith.



“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)

Dave, there is no Scripture that states: "If Jesus died for you, you have personal justification because faith don't matter for nothing."


God disagrees with the view that we have personal justification ONLY because of the Cross and that faith is meaningless, useless, irrelevant, it has nothing to do with anything. We are not personally justified ONLY because Christ died for us, that must be applied to the individual - and that's by faith. We must "believe in Christ" We are "saved through faith in Christ." Christ AND faith in Him.




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[1689Dave]

Just quote the Scripture that states, "Jesus did not die for everyone." Just quote those words.

Here's what God states, Hebrews 2:9 " But we see Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."

So, Dave, why is God wrong and you are right? You claim Jesus did not die for everyone and God says He did. So, why should we believe you in stead of God?







Thus your persistent heresy of repudiating faith. Your apologetic here relies ENTIRELY, WHOLLY, on faith being a joke, irrelevant, having nothing to do with personal justification. It is the repudiation of the SOLA FIDE part of personal justification.

Just as your view mandate that God is SO often wrong when He states that Jesus died for all, here your view mandates that God is SO often wrong when He states that there must be faith.



“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)

Dave, there is no Scripture that states: "If Jesus died for you, you have personal justification because faith don't matter for nothing."


God disagrees with you that we have personal justification ONLY because of the Cross and that faith is meaningless, useless, irrelevant, it has nothing to do with anything. We are not personally justified ONLY because Christ died for us, that must be applied to the individual - and that's by faith. We must "believe in Christ" We are "saved through faith in Christ." Christ AND faith in Him.




.

He told the Pharisees in Jn 10 He did not die for them. Faith is part of salvation, but Christ must pay for a person's sins before they can experience it in any true sense. All of the passages that limit the atonement to the elect verify it. The fact that most perish proves he did not pay for their sins.....