Jesus died for the sins of the world

[1689Dave]

I do not think you know what Pelagianism really is.

I know and you end up there in your teachings.

 

[1689Dave]

You replied to a post that included this content. I want to know if you understood the argument and why you did not respond to it.

Being a Catholic I know that Godel's theorem regarding incompleteness in the created universe of Mathematics has an analogy in the creation of which we are a part. Fundamentally, every mystery in the holy scriptures is something that we - human beings - would not know but for God revealing it to us and that means that all we know is what God revealed rather than everything exhaustively implied by what God has revealed. Moses was taught to say to Israel "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29:29. Catholic Christians have the humility and the wisdom to admit when our knowledge comes to an end.​

You still must save allegedly yourself by works.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You still wind up in the same place. Salvation by works dictated by the Church and never found in scripture.

Sharpen up your game and then come back with a coherent argument. For now all you're offering is meaningless commentary that has little or nothing to do with Catholic teaching or my stated views.

 

[Josiah]

free will IS Pelagianism.

This is Universal Atonement. It's just 4 words. Words my four-year-old son can read and understand

"Jesus died for all."

Now, it's simple: Just underline the words "free" and "will" there. Or admit, the doctrine does not teach free will, it teaches Jesus died for all. Just the echo - verbatim - exactly, word-for-word, what the Bible so often states.


.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You replied to a post that included this content. I want to know if you understood the argument and why you did not respond to it.
Being a Catholic I know that Godel's theorem regarding incompleteness in the created universe of Mathematics has an analogy in the creation of which we are a part. Fundamentally, every mystery in the holy scriptures is something that we - human beings - would not know but for God revealing it to us and that means that all we know is what God revealed rather than everything exhaustively implied by what God has revealed. Moses was taught to say to Israel "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29:29. Catholic Christians have the humility and the wisdom to admit when our knowledge comes to an end.

You still wind up in the same place. Salvation by works dictated by the Church and never found in scripture.

You didn't respond to the argument. I think you do not understand it.

 

[1689Dave]

This is Universal Atonement. It's just 4 words. Words my four-year-old son can read and understand

"Jesus died for all."

Now, it's simple: Just underline the words "free" and "will" there. Or admit, the doctrine does not teach free will, it teaches Jesus died for all. Just echoing - verbatim - exactly, word-for-word, what the Bible so often states.


.

But it does not say that. It says he died for many.

 

[1689Dave]

You didn't respond to the argument. I think you do not understand it.

You said you do not argue just a few moments ago.

 

[1689Dave]

Sharpen up your game and then come back with a coherent argument. For now all you're offering is meaningless commentary that has little or nothing to do with Catholic teaching or my stated views.

Try proving you aren't saved by works never mentioned in scripture.

 

[Josiah]

Here is a functional definition of pelagianism:

Pelagianism is a Christian theological position that holds that the original sin did not taint human nature and that humans by divine grace have free will to achieve human perfection. Pelagius (c. 355 – c. 420 AD), an ascetic and philosopher from the British Isles, taught that God could not command believers to do the impossible, and therefore it must be possible to satisfy all divine commandments. He also taught that it was unjust to punish one person for the sins of another; therefore, infants are born blameless. Pelagius accepted no excuse for sinful behaviour and taught that all Christians, regardless of their station in life, should live unimpeachable, sinless lives.​

As can be seen, the specific claim is that human free will is sufficient in and of itself to achieve perfection. This is a heresy that is rejected by the Catholic Church. Your posts do not take note of the meaning of Pelagianism.

Yup. That's Pelagianism.

And here is Universal Atonement: "Jesus died for all."

Anyone who can read and has an IQ over 40 therefore knows neither is the other.

And we know that your church - The Catholic Church - condemns Pelagianism (Council of Orange) and teaches Universal Atonement (CCC 605, etc) ""There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not die."


A blessed Advent season to you and yours...


Josiah

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[1689Dave]

Yup. That's Pelagianism.

And here is Universal Atonement: "Jesus died for all."

Anyone who can read and has an IQ over 40 therefore knows neither is the other.

And we know that your church - The Catholic Church - condemns Pelagianism (Council of Orange) and teaches Universal Atonement (CCC 605, etc)



.

Pelagius taught free will. the main component of universal atonement. Have you ever read Luther on the subject?

 

[MoreCoffee]

And here is Universal Atonement: "Jesus died for all."

Try a more precise definition, such as this:

Unlimited atonement (sometimes called general atonement or universal atonement) is a doctrine in Protestant Christianity that is normally associated with Amyraldism (four-point Calvinism), as well as Arminianism and other non-Calvinist traditions. The doctrine states that Jesus died as a propitiation for the benefit of all humans without exception. It is a doctrine distinct from other elements of the Calvinist acronym TULIP and is contrary to the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement.​

 

[MoreCoffee]

Pelagius taught free will. the main component of universal atonement. Have you ever read Luther on the subject?

These posts provide evidence that their author is not dealing with Pelagianism, has not dealt with Catholic teaching, and does not define or deal with "universal atonement".

 

[1689Dave]

Try a more precise definition, such as this:

Unlimited atonement (sometimes called general atonement or universal atonement) is a doctrine in Protestant Christianity that is normally associated with Amyraldism (four-point Calvinism), as well as Arminianism and other non-Calvinist traditions. The doctrine states that Jesus died as a propitiation for the benefit of all humans without exception. It is a doctrine distinct from other elements of the Calvinist acronym TULIP and is contrary to the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement.​

Scripture teaches only one atonement, Limited. Universal "atonement" doesn't atone for anything or all would be saved. False advertising?

 

[1689Dave]

These posts provide evidence that their author is not dealing with Pelagianism, has not dealt with Catholic teaching, and does not define or deal with "universal atonement".

Pelagius taught free will, just as you do. Why did Luther break your backs with his book "The Bondage of the Will"? Still unrefuted.

 

[Josiah]

Try a more precise definition, such as this:

Unlimited atonement (sometimes called general atonement or universal atonement) is a doctrine in Protestant Christianity that is normally associated with Amyraldism (four-point Calvinism), as well as Arminianism and other non-Calvinist traditions. The doctrine states that Jesus died as a propitiation for the benefit of all humans without exception. It is a doctrine distinct from other elements of the Calvinist acronym TULIP and is contrary to the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement.​

@MoreCoffee


Yes, it is the doctrine in all Christian communities except for a very few radical, extreme Calvinists ones.

Here's how your Catholic Catechism puts it in CCC 605: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not die." You will not find a more bold statement of Universal Atonement elsewhere; that's it. As clear as it an be. And it's doctrine in the Catholic Church.

Yes, it is distinctive from the invention of a few radical, latter-day Calvinists: the "L" of TULIP. See what CatholicAnswers says about that invention: Did Christ Die for All?

Truth is, my Catholic brother: The Catholic Church embraces Universal Atonement and denounces the Calvinist invention of the opposite very boldly.


Blessings....



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[MoreCoffee]

Scripture teaches only one atonement, Limited. Universal "atonement" doesn't atone for anything or all would be saved. False advertising?

I disagree with what's said in the above post. If you want to know why, read my previous posts which deal with "universal atonement"

 

[MoreCoffee]

Pelagius taught free will, just as you do. Why did Luther break your backs with his book "The Bondage of the Will"? Still unrefuted.

Your posts, sir, misrepresent what my posts contain. I do not see any good reason to respond to this kind of misrepresentation.

 

[1689Dave]

I disagree with what's said in the above post. If you want to know why, read my previous posts which deal with "universal atonement"

Why would I invest time in that? You have zero scriptural proof.

 

[MoreCoffee]

@MoreCoffee


Yes, it is the doctrine in all Christian communities except for a very few radical, extreme Calvinists ones.

Here's how you Catholic Catechism puts it in CCC 605: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not die." You will not find a more bold statement of Universal Atonement elsewhere; that's it. As clear as it an be.

Yes, it is distinctive from the invention of a few radical, latter-day Calvinists: the "L" of TULIP. See what CatholicAnswers says about that invention:

As much as I like to approve your comments, I cannot agree with them because they are fundamentally flawed. "Universal atonement" is a Protestant category, it is not Catholic teaching.

Catholic teaching is couched in biblical language for very good reasons. Catholic teaching is that Christ is the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. We are content with that language and do not want any part of "universal atonement". Protestants are welcome to keep that vocabulary for their inhouse arguments. If some well-meaning Catholic apologists ventures into that muddy terminology, shame on them.

 

[brightfame52]

I disagreed with your post because it treats "sin of the world" as if it said, "sin of the elect". And since that is the matter we're disputing your post is both "begging the question" and "circular reasoning".

The world in Jn 1:29 doesnt have sin charged to it, thats the elect.