What do you think about these Martin Luther quotes?

[Josiah]

I read it. If the history is true, it’s terrible.

MrW


The Wikipedia article perpetuates a lie that began in the 1930's. Wikipedia is not known for accuracy but for perpetuating common opinions so this is not shocking.

Luther was NOT anti-Semitic, he was anti-JEWISH. He was opposed to all non-Christian RELIGIONS and those that adhere and promote those FALSE, WRONG religions. If the article had quoted Luther in context, it would be clear he was speaking of the Jewish RELIGION, not Semitic races. Indeed, it is proven he FULLY accepted Hebrews who were baptized Christians....

Everyone admits that Luther used horrible verbiage to express his disapproval of non-Christians and who denied the Gospel. Of course, this was typical of his day when speech was the antithesis of today's "PC'ism" speech then was very polemic and "in your face" and often hyperbolic, but I agree, that does not excuse it. How he expressed his disapproval of those who denied Christ and the Gospel was terrible. But it was not racist. It was not against a people who claimed some line from Abraham (whether they were Chrsitians, Jews or Atheist), it was against people who denied the Christ and the Christian Gospel - huge difference there! If people repudiate Donald Trump for his views, that does NOT mean they are therefore Anti-Caucasion or Anti-Male or Anti-American, it means they disagree with views/beliefs. Do you see the difference?




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[NathanH83]

MrW


The Wikipedia article perpetuates a lie that began in the 1930's. Wikipedia is not known for accuracy but for perpetuating common opinions so this is not shocking.

Luther was NOT anti-Semitic, he was anti-JEWISH. He was opposed to all non-Christian RELIGIONS and those that adhere and promote those FALSE, WRONG religions. If the article had quoted Luther in context, it would be clear he was speaking of the Jewish RELIGION, not Semitic races. Indeed, it is proven he FULLY accepted Hebrews who were baptized Christians....

Everyone admits that Luther used horrible verbiage to express his disapproval of non-Christians and who denied the Gospel. Of course, this was typical of his day when speech was the antithesis of today's "PC'ism" speech then was very polemic and "in your face" and often hyperbolic, but I agree, that does not excuse it. How he expressed his disapproval of those who denied Christ and the Gospel was terrible. But it was not racist. It was not against a people who claimed some line from Abraham (whether they were Chrsitians, Jews or Atheist), it was against people who denied the Christ and the Christian Gospel - huge difference there! If people repudiate Donald Trump for his views, that does NOT mean they are therefore Anti-Caucasion or Anti-Male or Anti-American, it means they disagree with views/beliefs. Do you see the difference?




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But what about Martin Luther and antisemitism?

 

[Josiah]

But what about Martin Luther and antisemitism?

There is none.

Read post 13.


"Anti-Semitism" is about RACE, about HEBREWS, about those who claim physical/racial ancestry to Abraham. Luther was not anti-Semite. He definitely was anti-JEWISH (the religion) - indeed he was against all non-Christian religions and those who promote such.



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[MrW]

I was not thinking in terms of racism at all.

His words (like Calvin’s actions) show clearly they were little “popes” themselves and hated and persecuted any whom disagreed with them.

Would you, as a Christian speak like Luther or act like Calvin (who was party to Christians being killed) toward people who disagreed with your understanding or they were even Buddhist or Hindu? Isn’t hell for them punishment enough? Would you persecute them on earth?

Do YOU hate people who don’t convert?

 

[NathanH83]

There is none.

Read post 13.


"Anti-Semitism" is about RACE, about HEBREWS, about those who claim physical/racial ancestry to Abraham. Luther was not anti-Semite. He definitely was anti-JEWISH (the religion) - indeed he was against all non-Christian religions and those who promote such.



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What about the definition of antisemitism?

Definition of anti-Semitism
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group.

Definition of ANTI-SEMITISM

hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[Josiah]

I was not thinking in terms of racism at all.

His words (like Calvin’s actions) show clearly they were little “popes” themselves and hated and persecuted any whom disagreed with them.

Would you, as a Christian speak like Luther or act like Calvin (who was party to Christians being killed) toward people who disagreed with your understanding or they were even Buddhist or Hindu? Isn’t hell for them punishment enough? Would you persecute them on earth?

Do YOU hate people who don’t convert?

As I have repeatedly stated - as strongly and clearly as possible - I repudiate the verbiage that Luther (and pretty much everyone else at the time) used against non-Christian religions and those that promote them. I would not use such words (even THEN when such speech was the custom).

MY point was that he was not against the Semitic RACE (as was Hitler, as are Anti-Semites today), he was against the Jewish RELIGION (and all other religions that denounced the Christ). Indeed, he denounced all racism (although his point was to denounce any claiming superiority). When modern people (since the 1930's) read "JEW" they immediately think a RACE but this whole concept was invented by a French Anthropologist who lived centuries after Luther, Luther meant those embracing a non-Christian RELIGION, who denounced the Christ, who repudiated the Christian Gospel. Sammy Davis, Jr. (a comedian who are was part of "the rat pack" back in the 1960's) was a JEW by religion but not by race (he was 100% African American). Luther would have been against his religion but not his race; do you see the difference? Luther repudiated racism... and yes those who denied the Christ and denounced the Gospel.

See post #13




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[Andrew]

As I have repeatedly stated - as strongly and clearly as possible - I repudiate the verbiage that Luther (and pretty much everyone else at the time) used against non-Christian religions and those that promote them. I would not use such words (even THEN when such speech was the custom).

MY point was that he was not against the Semitic RACE (as was Hitler, as are Anti-Semites today), he was against the Jewish RELIGION (and all other religions that denounced the Christ). Indeed, he denounced all racism (although his point was to denounce any claiming superiority). When modern people (since the 1930's) read "JEW" they immediately think a RACE but this whole concept was invented by a French Anthropologist who lived centuries after Luther, Luther meant those embracing a non-Christian RELIGION, who denounced the Christ, who repudiated the Christian Gospel. Sammy Davis, Jr. (a comedian who are was part of "the rat pack" back in the 1960's) was a JEW by religion but not by race (he was 100% African American). Luther would have been against his religion but not his race; do you see the difference? Luther repudiated racism... and yes those who denied the Christ and denounced the Gospel.

See post #13




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Most Jews are Jews who practice Judaism, are those who aren't Messianic but not religious either way exempt from his radical call of action?

 

[Lamb]

Most Jews are Jews who practice Judaism, are those who aren't Messianic but not religious either way exempt from his radical call of action?

I have some Jewish friends who would say a lot of Jews say they're Jewish but they don't practice the religion...it's kind of like the Easter and Christmas Christians who show up because they feel an obligation. They embrace their heritage but the religion isn't for them.

 

[Josiah]

Most Jews are Jews who practice Judaism, are those who aren't Messianic but not religious either way exempt from his radical call of action?

In our modern world "JEW" can refer to two DIFFERENT things..... one who embraces the Jewish religion (as Sammy Davis Jr. did) and those who belong to the line of Abraham, Semitics of that ancestry. One has to do with RELIGION, the other with RACE. Yes, while sometimes they are the same, it's not always. I personally know of THREE married couples where one of the persons is of Semitic/Hebrew race but NOT Jewish in religion (2 are Agnostic, one is now Catholic).

Luther was passionately AGAINST racism. But he was also passionately AGAINST those who denounced the Christ and denied the Gospel. He was not against the Hebrew RACE (as shown in post #13), he was against the Jewish RELIGION (and any other that denied the Christ and the Gospel). Huge difference.

Read post #13




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[Lamb]

Whenever people take quotes from the past from Luther without fully immersing themselves into that time period to try to understand, it really does an injustice. Of course Luther can't live up to today's standards of having to be politically correct. My quotes from when I was a child wouldn't hold up to today's standards either when I think of how everyone on the playground would yell, "I'm gonna kill you!" Something to think about.

 

[NathanH83]

Whenever people take quotes from the past from Luther without fully immersing themselves into that time period to try to understand, it really does an injustice. Of course Luther can't live up to today's standards of having to be politically correct. My quotes from when I was a child wouldn't hold up to today's standards either when I think of how everyone on the playground would yell, "I'm gonna kill you!" Something to think about.

Did you take your embarrassing quotes as a child and endorse them by publishing them in a book the way Martin Luther did?

 

[Josiah]

Whenever people take quotes from the past from Luther without fully immersing themselves into that time period to try to understand, it really does an injustice. Of course Luther can't live up to today's standards of having to be politically correct. My quotes from when I was a child wouldn't hold up to today's standards either when I think of how everyone on the playground would yell, "I'm gonna kill you!" Something to think about.

Yes. I find his verbiage here quite terrible and inappropriate.... and I know of no Lutheran who endorses the WORDS he used to express his disapproval of those who denounce Christ and the Gospel. TRUE, his verbiage was typical of his day.... he lived in a culture virtually the anti-thesis of our radical "Political Correct" milieu of our day... this is just the "in your face" speech typical of the 16th Century. This doesn't excuse it (anymore than those employing absurd "PC'ism" today) but it is terrible. I think we're all in agreement on that.

But the problem IMO is that people confuse the Jewish RELIGION and the Jewish RACE - they have never been the same thing. Jesus was a Semite but he did NOT denounce the Christ or the Gospel (Jesus as a CHRISTIAN). Sammy Davis Jr. was an African American by race but a Jew by religion. They are not the same thing. CLEARLY, Luther repudiated any who denounced the Christ and repudiated the Gospel (regardless of race)... he passionately disagreed with Judaism and Islam. BUT he actually was very against racism... and was NOT against Semitic people. Racism on this point seems to have been invented by a French Anthropologiest centuries later Luther.... Hitler just applied that racism retroactively to Luther. Some are still doing that.



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[Lamb]

Did you take your embarrassing quotes as a child and endorse them by publishing them in a book the way Martin Luther did?

I did not but there have been many people who have said the same thing in books and in films. Check out the movie Goonies. It's one of those things that is frowned upon today for saying it but was quite rampant back in the 70s and 80s. That's the thing you need to remember when reading what historical figures state. You have to take into consideration that time period and judging with your modern eyes and political correctness isn't going to help you understand why it was said.

 

[NathanH83]

I did not but there have been many people who have said the same thing in books and in films. Check out the movie Goonies. It's one of those things that is frowned upon today for saying it but was quite rampant back in the 70s and 80s. That's the thing you need to remember when reading what historical figures state. You have to take into consideration that time period and judging with your modern eyes and political correctness isn't going to help you understand why it was said.

Goonies? What part of the movie? What did they say?

 

[Lamb]

Goonies? What part of the movie? What did they say?

The older brother said to the younger, "I'm gonna kill you!"

 

[1689Dave]

What about this? If true, how could Luther be guilty as charged?

"Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew" or to call a contemporary Jew an "Israelite" or a "Hebrew."

The Jewish Almanac - 1980
Chp. 1, pg.3 "Identity Crisis"

"Jews are explicitly not a race. Indeed, race is a godless construct stemming from Darwinian and Evolutionary ideas about how one group of homo sapiens might evolve more quickly and more fully than others. However, the Torah utterly rejects such disgusting racial theory. Every human being is created equally in the image of God. There is only one race and that’s the human race." The Jerusalem Post https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-695683

"It was the diabolical Nazis who, using their monstrous lie that Jews are a distinct and inferior race, annihilated six million Jews they determined were subhumans as part of their godless lie that there is anything other than one human family." https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-695683

 

[Jason76]

Jesus said that not everyone would enter the Kingdom, only those "walking in the light" and, in fact, even some people who seem holy won't make it. Anyway, a lot of seemingly holy people are hiding deep sin. For instance, Job was actually not holy - to the point God could allow judgement on him. His sin was doubting the justice of God - and apparently he was doing that way before Satan wrought affliction on him.

Also, as a 2nd thought, it's not the role of the good to punish (as in unconstructive hate and violence, for instance) the bad. Only the bad punish the bad. The Sermon on the Mount preach us to love our enemies, so even if it was true was Luther said about Jews, just for argument sake, it's not the role of Christians to bully and resent them.

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus said that not everyone would enter the Kingdom, only those "walking in the light" and, in fact, even some people who seem holy won't make it. Anyway, a lot of seemingly holy people are hiding deep sin. For instance, Job was actually not holy - to the point God could allow judgement on him. His sin was doubting the justice of God - and apparently he was doing that way before Satan wrought affliction on him.

Also, as a 2nd thought, it's not the role of the good to punish (as in unconstructive hate and violence, for instance) the bad. Only the bad punish the bad. The Sermon on the Mount preach us to love our enemies, so even if it was true was Luther said about Jews, just for argument sake, it's not the role of Christians to bully and resent them.

The Jews are a false religion based on the hatred of Christ. They are not a Race. In fact, they are not even Semites, but Jewish converts of the 9th century from near Turkey called the Khazars. Luther was against false religion, not people.

 

[Jason76]

The Jews are a false religion based on the hatred of Christ. They are not a Race. In fact, they are not even Semites, but Jewish converts of the 9th century from near Turkey called the Khazars. Luther was against false religion, not people.

It's not a reason to be the executioner, even if you are correct. God judges and uses the bad to judge the bad, not Christians. I mean, no wonder there is all this intolerance and hate in the world - and so much by Christians. How could anyone get from a Roman Catholic mass or Protestant sermon, that people are called out put people in death camps or like Columbus, steal land and enslave natives?

Well, exceptions seemed to be like the Canaanites who would sacrifice children.

 

[1689Dave]

It's not a reason to be the executioner, even if you are correct. God judges and uses the bad to judge the bad, not Christians. I mean, no wonder there is all this intolerance and hate in the world - and so much by Christians. How could anyone get from a Roman Catholic mass or Protestant sermon, that people are called out put people in death camps or like Columbus, steal land and enslave natives?

Well, exceptions seemed to be like the Canaanites who would sacrifice children.

Jesus condemns violence, even violence for self-defense. So instead use Jesus as a model to expose the false Christians the churches are crawling with today.