What or Who is the Church?

[brightfame52]

lees

No, the verses you try and use, (Eph. 2:11-14) prove you wrong. See also (Eph 2:15). That is the Church Paul is describing. It is made up of both Jew and Gentlile. That is the "one new man"

Which is Israel with the new recognition of gentiles becoming part of the commonwealth of Israel. See in OT the Church, the Body of Christ was composed largely of elect jews, under the New Covenant administration that changes, Israel the Body of Christ will be composed of largely gentiles. See thats New

That body could not have existed until the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. (2:15).

Not true, the Body existed all the time, but the addition and calling of the gentile remnant was to be largely following Pentecost

The only way you can make that Israel is if you just add it in, as you attempt to do. Being brought into the 'commonwealth of Israel' doesn't make the Church the same as Israel.

Its right there in your face, gentiles are being added to the commonwealth of Israel

The Church is brought into many of the blessings and covenants made to Israel. In other words, she shares in those. She does not become Israel.

Right because the Church is the commonwealth of Israel

I already explained that God forknew all His people.

Right which is the Church Israel, thats the only people foreknown

(Col.1:18) He is not the Head of Israel. Because Israel is not His Body or Bride.

He is the Head of Israel, the Prince Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Prince and Head are relatively the same thing. For instance, a Prince is a head of state.

The word head kephalē:

metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent

The word prince archēgos:

the chief leader, prince

So again they are comparably the same. So Christ is the Head of Israel, the Prince of the Church

Also He is the Saviour of Israel, likewise He is the Saviour of His Body of which He is Head Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

The Prince and the Head are the same, the Israel and Body are the same !

See how confusing your theology is. First you want to call the new body, Israel. Then you want to call the new body, the Church.

No Im Good, you confused, and unfortunately deceived, not good friend, I actually feel sorry for you

You have corrected nothing. The subject of (Rom 9:-11) is national Israel's unbelief. Paul is addressing physical Israel. (9:1-5) It is that Israel that Paul is referring to in (Rom. 11:25) "....that blindess in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel, shall be saved."

Yes I have corrected it, you just cant see it because you deceived. Blindness in part means, not the whole ethnic nation is cut off, for there is a remnant of ethnic jews, like Paul himself, that God will be calling into glory along with a remnant of jews, and thats how all Israel , not the nation, but His foreknown People Israel, the Church shall be saved.

The fullness of the Gentiles culminates in/with the end of world history

In other words, that national Israel which has been blinded, is only temporary. Meaning that national Israel will once again exist when God is through bringing in the number of Gentiles He wants to, into the new body now, the Church. "until" Which is made up of Jew and Gentile.

National israel is toast along with that Old Covenant, but mercifully there is still a remnant of ethnic jews and gentiles that God saves by Christ. See God doesnt save or not save a person based upon their ethnicity, thats respect of persons friend, and you are guilty of believing that.

Concerning (John 6:37): It is true.

I know its true, thats why it was only the nation in general that was cast off, for their national crime against the Lords anointed, their national advantages and privileges deemed the severity of Gods Judgment, but for the Fathers sake He will save ethnic jews and gentiles, the foreknown beloved of the Lord

. That was not the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was 'Repent for the Kingdom is at hand" (Matt. 3:1-2) (Matt. 4:17) (Matt. 6:10) (Matt. 10:5-6)

Jesus Christ is the Kingdom, He was at Hand, thats a different discussion, but let it be known, there is one Gospel and its all about Jesus Christ

Paul taught anyone who would listen jew or gentile about the Kingdom Gospel because it was concerning Christ the head of the Church Acts 28:23; 28-30

And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Thus Christ is speaking in (John 6:37) to those who would make up His Body the Church. The Gospel of (John) is known to be different than the other Gospels. Why? Because it is more for the Church. In (John) the rejection of Christ as King is described early on. (1: 11-12) Now faith in Christ as the Son is what brings one into the Kingdom of God, which at this time is the Church.

Like I said friend, you deceived, may God be pleased to have mercy on you before He returns.

 

[Lees]

lees



Which is Israel with the new recognition of gentiles becoming part of the commonwealth of Israel. See in OT the Church, the Body of Christ was composed largely of elect jews, under the New Covenant administration that changes, Israel the Body of Christ will be composed of largely gentiles. See thats New



Not true, the Body existed all the time, but the addition and calling of the gentile remnant was to be largely following Pentecost



Its right there in your face, gentiles are being added to the commonwealth of Israel



Right because the Church is the commonwealth of Israel



Right which is the Church Israel, thats the only people foreknown



He is the Head of Israel, the Prince Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Prince and Head are relatively the same thing. For instance, a Prince is a head of state.

The word head kephalē:

metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent

The word prince archēgos:

the chief leader, prince

So again they are comparably the same. So Christ is the Head of Israel, the Prince of the Church

Also He is the Saviour of Israel, likewise He is the Saviour of His Body of which He is Head Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

The Prince and the Head are the same, the Israel and Body are the same !



No Im Good, you confused, and unfortunately deceived, not good friend, I actually feel sorry for you

Yes I have corrected it, you just cant see it because you deceived. Blindness in part means, not the whole ethnic nation is cut off, for there is a remnant of ethnic jews, like Paul himself, that God will be calling into glory along with a remnant of jews, and thats how all Israel , not the nation, but His foreknown People Israel, the Church shall be saved.

The fullness of the Gentiles culminates in/with the end of world history



National israel is toast along with that Old Covenant, but mercifully there is still a remnant of ethnic jews and gentiles that God saves by Christ. See God doesnt save or not save a person based upon their ethnicity, thats respect of persons friend, and you are guilty of believing that.



I know its true, thats why it was only the nation in general that was cast off, for their national crime against the Lords anointed, their national advantages and privileges deemed the severity of Gods Judgment, but for the Fathers sake He will save ethnic jews and gentiles, the foreknown beloved of the Lord



Jesus Christ is the Kingdom, He was at Hand, thats a different discussion, but let it be known, there is one Gospel and its all about Jesus Christ

Paul taught anyone who would listen jew or gentile about the Kingdom Gospel because it was concerning Christ the head of the Church Acts 28:23; 28-30

And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.



Like I said friend, you deceived, may God be pleased to have mercy on you before He returns.

That is not true. (Eph 2:15) is clear. That in order to produce the "one new man" Christ had to die. That means the Church could not exist until Christ death, burial, and resurrecton.

Lees

 

[brightfame52]

That is not true. (Eph 2:15) is clear. That in order to produce the "one new man" Christ had to die. That means the Church could not exist until Christ death, burial, and resurrecton.

Lees

Yes it is true. The New Man is simply New Covenant Israel, the Body of Christ. The Church/Israel, of the OT had to wait until after Christ died to add its gentile populace to it, thats just how God arranged things.

 

[Lees]

Yes it is true. The New Man is simply New Covenant Israel, the Body of Christ. The Church/Israel, of the OT had to wait until after Christ died to add its gentile populace to it, thats just how God arranged things.

Again, that is what you say, not the Bible. The Church of Jesus Christ could not exist until after Christ's death. (Eph. 3:3-6) is clear. Israel did exist beginning with Moses in Egypt. That was Israel alone. They were a church in that they were the believers. No Church of Jesus Christ though because the Church of Christ is His Body. They could not exist until after Christ's death.

There were believers before Israel existed also. But they were not part of Israel. And because the Church of Jesus Christ didn't yet exist, neither were they part of the Church of Christ.

No, that is how you are arranging them...not God.

(My mistake concerning the verse I quoted in (Ephesians). It should be (Eph. 3:3-6) I have edited it and corrected it.

Lees

 

[brightfame52]

The Church, the Body of Christ Israel, has always been those individuals God foreknew in the purpose of Christ Rom 11:2

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

The same people Paul speaks of here as referring to the Church the Body of Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And these are the ones it is promised Jesus shall save from their sins , His People Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. 2

 

[Albion]

Again, that is what you say, not the Bible. The Church of Jesus Christ could not exist until after Christ's death. (Eph. 3:15) is clear.

Lees

Ephesians 3:15 doesn't say any such thing. I have to assume that you knew that.

 

[Lees]

Ephesians 3:15 doesn't say any such thing. I have to assume that you knew that.

My mistake. I meant (Eph. 3:3-6). thanks

Lees

 

[brightfame52]

Again, that is what you say, not the Bible. The Church of Jesus Christ could not exist until after Christ's death. (Eph. 3:3-6) is clear. Israel did exist beginning with Moses in Egypt. That was Israel alone. They were a church in that they were the believers. No Church of Jesus Christ though because the Church of Christ is His Body. They could not exist until after Christ's death.

There were believers before Israel existed also. But they were not part of Israel. And because the Church of Jesus Christ didn't yet exist, neither were they part of the Church of Christ.

No, that is how you are arranging them...not God.

(My mistake concerning the verse I quoted in (Ephesians). It should be (Eph. 3:3-6) I have edited it and corrected it.

Lees

The Church of Christ existed from Gen 3 onward. Thats the only people to be saved. If one doesnt belong to the Body of Christ, there simply isn't any Salvation for them. The Body of Christ, Israel the people of God is the Church.

 

[Lees]

The Church of Christ existed from Gen 3 onward. Thats the only people to be saved. If one doesnt belong to the Body of Christ, there simply isn't any Salvation for them. The Body of Christ, Israel the people of God is the Church.

No, as I showed you. The Church could not begin until after Christ's death. (Eph. 2:14-16) (Eph. 3:3-6)

Israel did not begin until the time of Moses. (Deut. 27:9)

Lees

 

[brightfame52]

No, as I showed you. The Church could not begin until after Christ's death. (Eph. 2:14-16) (Eph. 3:3-6)

Israel did not begin until the time of Moses. (Deut. 27:9)

Lees

Again Israel the Church was in Gen 3, the physical nation israel began with moses

 

[brightfame52]

No, as I showed you. The Church could not begin until after Christ's death. (Eph. 2:14-16) (Eph. 3:3-6)

Israel did not begin until the time of Moses. (Deut. 27:9)

Lees

Why do the jews of the physical nation of Israel call Abraham their father, didnt moses come after Abraham ?

 

[Lees]

Why do the jews of the physical nation of Israel call Abraham their father, didnt moses come after Abraham ?

That Abraham was their father didn't mean the nation Israel had begun. (Deut. 27:9 is clear) "And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, this day thou art become the people of the LORD thy God."

Lees

 

[Lees]

Again Israel the Church was in Gen 3, the physical nation israel began with moses

No, There is no Israel the Church.

Neither Israel or the church began in (Gen. 3).

Israel didn't begin until Moses. (Deut. 27:9) The Church couldn't begin till after the Cross. (Eph. 2:13-16).

Lees

 

[brightfame52]

That Abraham was their father didn't mean the nation Israel had begun. (Deut. 27:9 is clear) "And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, this day thou art become the people of the LORD thy God."

Lees

The people Israel had begun, the seed of Abraham, and thats the Church. They actually started before Abraham !

 

[brightfame52]

No, There is no Israel the Church.

Neither Israel or the church began in (Gen. 3).

Israel didn't begin until Moses. (Deut. 27:9) The Church couldn't begin till after the Cross. (Eph. 2:13-16).

Lees

Yes there is Israel the Church, its the only Israel God saved, and promised to Save Isa 45:17

But Israel[church] shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation:
ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

 

[Lees]

Yes there is Israel the Church, its the only Israel God saved, and promised to Save Isa 45:17

But Israel[church] shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation:
ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

All you have shown is the way you twist Scripture. (Is. 45:17) is talking to Israel.

The only way you can say it is the Church is if you add to the Scripture. Which you just did, and have done before.

You pervert the Scripture. That is a dangerous thing to do.

Lees

 

[Lees]

The people Israel had begun, the seed of Abraham, and thats the Church. They actually started before Abraham !

Scripture is clear as to when Israel began as a nation of God. (Deut. 27:9)

Scripture is clear that the Church could not begin till after the Cross. (Eph. 3:3-6)

Lees

 

[brightfame52]

lees

All you have shown is the way you twist Scripture. (Is. 45:17) is talking to Israel.

Correct, the Body of Christ, and they shall be saved in the Lord Jesus Christ her Head

The only way you can say it is the Church is if you add to the Scripture.

Its understanding scripture

You pervert the Scripture. That is a dangerous thing to do.

Lol Yeah right, Im presenting the Truth and you are opposing it, which is a dangerous thing to do.

BTW this scripture also is the Church, the Body of Christ Isa 45:25

In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Paul writes about that seed here Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

And Rom 3:30

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

 

[brightfame52]

lees

Scripture is clear as to when Israel began as a nation of God. (Deut. 27:9)

Im not talking about the physical nation, Im talking about the people Israel, people of Faith, the Church which started in Genesis

Scripture is clear that the Church could not begin till after the Cross. (Eph. 3:3-6)

Eph 3:3-6 says nothing about the church could not begin till after the cross

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Talking about somebody perverting the scripture, look in he mirror ! The Church existed, it was a Mystery, it existed but unknown. The word mystery
hidden thing, secret, mystery

1. generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals
2. a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding
3. a hidden purpose or counsel

Not only did the Church exist in Genesis, Her Head did as well, Christ, Israel

You need to repent my friend

 

[Lees]

lees



Correct, the Body of Christ, and they shall be saved in the Lord Jesus Christ her Head



Its understanding scripture



Lol Yeah right, Im presenting the Truth and you are opposing it, which is a dangerous thing to do.

BTW this scripture also is the Church, the Body of Christ Isa 45:25

In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Paul writes about that seed here Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

And Rom 3:30

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

No. (Is. 45:17) is clear. "But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation...." Israel is being addressed.

Adding to the Scripture is not understanding Scripture. I'm not opposing Scripture. I'm opposing you.

(Is. 45:25) is Israel also. It is very clear. "In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory."

(Rom. 4:16) addresses 'all the seed' and that the method of salvation for them was/is by faith. That doesn't make Israel the Church. Nor does it make those from Adam to Moses the Church of Jesus Christ. Those who make up the Church are the seed, just as those who exercised faith from Adam to Moses are the seed, just as those who make up Israel are the seed. Being of the Seed of God does not mean all are of the same body of believers. But all who are of the Seed of God are so by faith.

Lees