The mistake of preaching only happiness

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Not at all. But you said that since Jesus healed in the NT that He heals today. But you also have implied that one must have faith. I've shown that not all who were healed had faith, nor did everyone who was healed ask for healing. But nothing you've said actually jives with reality. That doesn't seem to concern you.
Your reality, not mine, my reality is that Jesus heals as He has healed me on many occasions and others that I know also. That is my reality
 

Hammster

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
1,459
Age
56
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Your reality, not mine, my reality is that Jesus heals as He has healed me on many occasions and others that I know also. That is my reality

Then why, in your reality, has God not healed my wife? I trust you asked Him to do so. Remember before you respond with an excuse: you said Jesus works today in the same was as He did in the NT.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Then why, in your reality, has God not healed my wife? I trust you asked Him to do so. Remember before you respond with an excuse: you said Jesus works today in the same was as He did in the NT.
Does God change? Are you saying Jesus who is God changed? Why do you keepasking me instead of God? Is it possible that God is silent for you? If so you need to find out why.
 

Hammster

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
1,459
Age
56
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Does God change? Are you saying Jesus who is God changed? Why do you keepasking me instead of God? Is it possible that God is silent for you? If so you need to find out why.

God doesn't change. But He also isn't formulaic like you make Him to be. The fact that you don't recognize that is evidence that you've created for yourself an idol.

If Jesus heals the same today, you have no reason to believe that my wife shouldn't be healed. However, since she's not, you should reevaluate your beliefs.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
God doesn't change. But He also isn't formulaic like you make Him to be. The fact that you don't recognize that is evidence that you've created for yourself an idol.

If Jesus heals the same today, you have no reason to believe that my wife shouldn't be healed. However, since she's not, you should reevaluate your beliefs.
And you should talk to God and expect a reply which you have ignored. If you arent willing to do that then this conversation is over as berating me and my beliefs will accomplish nothing but talking to God will. So I wish you well in that endeavor and may your ears be opened to hear and your understanding be expanded
 

Hammster

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
1,459
Age
56
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
And you should talk to God and expect a reply which you have ignored. If you arent willing to do that then this conversation is over as berating me and my beliefs will accomplish nothing but talking to God will. So I wish you well in that endeavor and may your ears be opened to hear and your understanding be expanded

So you are saying that I shouldn't listen to you because you cannot represent God correctly.

Gotcha
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
As with all things it has to be in line with Gods will for us.

Actually they go hand in hand, hearing God and knowing His will is key in anything in our lives, thus why we need to hear God although so many dont. You seem to keep going over that part

Your reality, not mine, my reality is that Jesus heals as He has healed me on many occasions and others that I know also. That is my reality

I've seen healings myself. That doesn't mean "God always heals". The healings you and I have seen blow away the "God never heals" argument because, as I'm sure you know, if you've seen something with your own eyes it's hard to accept anyone claiming it never happens.

However many healings you or I might have witnessed don't support the claim that "God always heals". They support "God sometimes heals". And if God chooses not to heal any particular individual it's not for us to demand he does things differently to suit us. Why God chooses to heal some and not others is one of those things we may never know this side of heaven. Certainly some of the people I know personally who have struggled through severe and ongoing sickness and disability are very open about the fact that God can use them in a way he would struggle to use an able-bodied person. In many ways it is incredibly humbling to see someone who is clearly struggling with problems, to know there is nothing I or anyone else can do to make those problems go away, and still they praise God.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
32,649
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
And you should talk to God and expect a reply which you have ignored. If you arent willing to do that then this conversation is over as berating me and my beliefs will accomplish nothing but talking to God will. So I wish you well in that endeavor and may your ears be opened to hear and your understanding be expanded

I have a hard time believing that Hammster has not repeatedly asked God for a long time daily...it's just that his answer has been either not now or no since the healing hasn't happened.
 

Hammster

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
1,459
Age
56
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I have a hard time believing that Hammster has not repeatedly asked God for a long time daily...it's just that his answer has been either not now or no since the healing hasn't happened.

Or I just don't have enough faith.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
32,649
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes

Hammster

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
1,459
Age
56
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
So where are you going to get this faith since God won"t give it to you?

I guess I just gotta believe more. Faith of a mustard seed don't cut it in these matters.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I think there are two quite DIFFERENT issues here....

In JUSTIFICATION, all that matters is the OBJECT of our faith - the Savior Jesus Christ (and yes, that faith is a free gift of God - His doing, His gift). Thus, in justification, the quality or quantity of faith is largely irrelevant because what matters is not how MUCH we believe but in WHOM we believe. Faith the size of a mustard seed is quite sufficient because Christ, its object is sufficient.

In SANCTIFICATION, I think our trust - reliance on God does tend to ebb and flow (at least it does for me).... and I think we are called to focused, strong faith. And, while I admit to a rather golden life, even for me there have been times that have strengthened my faith in God - in trusting in His providence, relying on Him for strength, looking to Him for comfort.... and obeying Him in His wise calling. I think we can "grow" in faith - this being irrelevant to our justification but not to our sanctification.

Make sense? :thinking:

As one now Reformational Protestant, I get MIGHTY uncomfortable when anything seems to place the focus on ME (my faith, my assurance, my submission, my decision, how strong is my faith) and thus detracts from Christ. ANYTIME the focus is on me, I'm uncomfortable because I know me - a horrible sinner who deserves nothing but hell, one who can only cry, "be MERCIFUL to me, the sinner." AND as now a Reformational Protestant, I get mighty uncomfortable when Law and Gospel are confused, when Justification and Sanctification are blended - because it puts ME in a role that I am a total failure at, at it detracts (even mocks) the glorious Gospel and the wonder of the Cross and Tomb. And, now as a Reformational Protestant, I'm mighty uncomfortable with the MEISM, the individualism of too much of modern "Evangelical" Protestantism (I left Catholicism in part over this; I surely am concerns when even worse forms reappear in Protestantism)... I became a Protestant in part because of Luther and Calvinis embrace of COMMUNITY, FAMILY, the church - so when I read things full of "me, me, me" I tend to get very quesy (suddenly back in the pew of my Catholic parish).

But in Sanctification.... I think there is a synergism and a growing.... as we come to trust God not only for justification but in the matters of our lives. It's just UBER important to not mix that with justification. PErhaps I'm wrong.



Just my half cent.


Pax


- Josiah
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I think there are two quite DIFFERENT issues here....

In JUSTIFICATION, all that matters is the OBJECT of our faith - the Savior Jesus Christ (and yes, that faith is a free gift of God - His doing, His gift). Thus, in justification, the quality or quantity of faith is largely irrelevant because what matters is not how MUCH we believe but in WHOM we believe. Faith the size of a mustard seed is quite sufficient because Christ, its object is sufficient.

In SANCTIFICATION, I think our trust - reliance on God does tend to ebb and flow (at least it does for me).... and I think we are called to focused, strong faith. And, while I admit to a rather golden life, even for me there have been times that have strengthened my faith in God - in trusting in His providence, relying on Him for strength, looking to Him for comfort.... and obeying Him in His wise calling. I think we can "grow" in faith - this being irrelevant to our justification but not to our sanctification.

Make sense? :thinking:

As one now Reformational Protestant, I get MIGHTY uncomfortable when anything seems to place the focus on ME (my faith, my assurance, my submission, my decision, how strong is my faith) and thus detracts from Christ. ANYTIME the focus is on me, I'm uncomfortable because I know me - a horrible sinner who deserves nothing but hell, one who can only cry, "be MERCIFUL to me, the sinner." AND as now a Reformational Protestant, I get mighty uncomfortable when Law and Gospel are confused, when Justification and Sanctification are blended - because it puts ME in a role that I am a total failure at, at it detracts (even mocks) the glorious Gospel and the wonder of the Cross and Tomb. And, now as a Reformational Protestant, I'm mighty uncomfortable with the MEISM, the individualism of too much of modern "Evangelical" Protestantism (I left Catholicism in part over this; I surely am concerns when even worse forms reappear in Protestantism)... I became a Protestant in part because of Luther and Calvinis embrace of COMMUNITY, FAMILY, the church - so when I read things full of "me, me, me" I tend to get very quesy (suddenly back in the pew of my Catholic parish).

But in Sanctification.... I think there is a synergism and a growing.... as we come to trust God not only for justification but in the matters of our lives. It's just UBER important to not mix that with justification. PErhaps I'm wrong.



Just my half cent.


Pax


- Josiah

You raise a good point in that the endless focus on how much faith someone has keeps bringing it down to the fundamental question of "am I good enough to be healed?", which generates all sorts of unhelpful consequences. I'm reminded of the man who said "Lord I believe, help me in my unbelief" and Jesus healed his son. Whenever the focus is on whether or not I am "sufficiently deserving" (or however it might be phrased) the obvious implication is that those who aren't healed are somehow not good enough. Clearly if the people good enough to be healed are healed, those who are not healed are lacking in some way. And so the people who need it the least get the accusations of hidden sin, or a lack of faith, or some other issue with them because it's obviously their fault that they weren't healed.

To be honest I think a lot of the problem is basic doublethink and twisted logic. To speak of things that are not as though they are requires faith, but that doesn't mean that every instance of someone speaking of things that are not as though they are should be applauded. It requires a degree of faith in another person to give them a key to my house but it would be a very foolish man who gave everyone and their dog a key to his house while claiming it was a show of great faith. Discerning the will of God is usually more complex than "it's always God's will to heal, end", and to presume to speak for God if the truth is nothing more than that we have decided it would be Jolly Nice Indeed if God were to provide a miracle is a dangerous game. We must remember that it is God who is in charge and we are the servants - some of the things I've heard where people claim their healing as if it were guaranteed, declare this curse or that affliction to be broken, stray dangerously close to putting us in charge and relegating God to little more than the cosmic handyman.
 

TurtleHare

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 29, 2015
Messages
1,057
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
I think there are two quite DIFFERENT issues here....

In JUSTIFICATION, all that matters is the OBJECT of our faith - the Savior Jesus Christ (and yes, that faith is a free gift of God - His doing, His gift). Thus, in justification, the quality or quantity of faith is largely irrelevant because what matters is not how MUCH we believe but in WHOM we believe. Faith the size of a mustard seed is quite sufficient because Christ, its object is sufficient.

In SANCTIFICATION, I think our trust - reliance on God does tend to ebb and flow (at least it does for me).... and I think we are called to focused, strong faith. And, while I admit to a rather golden life, even for me there have been times that have strengthened my faith in God - in trusting in His providence, relying on Him for strength, looking to Him for comfort.... and obeying Him in His wise calling. I think we can "grow" in faith - this being irrelevant to our justification but not to our sanctification.

Make sense? :thinking:

As one now Reformational Protestant, I get MIGHTY uncomfortable when anything seems to place the focus on ME (my faith, my assurance, my submission, my decision, how strong is my faith) and thus detracts from Christ. ANYTIME the focus is on me, I'm uncomfortable because I know me - a horrible sinner who deserves nothing but hell, one who can only cry, "be MERCIFUL to me, the sinner." AND as now a Reformational Protestant, I get mighty uncomfortable when Law and Gospel are confused, when Justification and Sanctification are blended - because it puts ME in a role that I am a total failure at, at it detracts (even mocks) the glorious Gospel and the wonder of the Cross and Tomb. And, now as a Reformational Protestant, I'm mighty uncomfortable with the MEISM, the individualism of too much of modern "Evangelical" Protestantism (I left Catholicism in part over this; I surely am concerns when even worse forms reappear in Protestantism)... I became a Protestant in part because of Luther and Calvinis embrace of COMMUNITY, FAMILY, the church - so when I read things full of "me, me, me" I tend to get very quesy (suddenly back in the pew of my Catholic parish).

But in Sanctification.... I think there is a synergism and a growing.... as we come to trust God not only for justification but in the matters of our lives. It's just UBER important to not mix that with justification. PErhaps I'm wrong.



Just my half cent.


Pax


- Josiah

Josiah, I like most of what you wrote there and when I asked my pastor about sanctification he said that we cooperate in it but that it is the Holy Spirit doing the real work. I saw a cartoon and it might have been on this site of a picture of a man laying down on an escalator and the caption said Sanctification.
 

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Josiah, I like most of what you wrote there and when I asked my pastor about sanctification he said that we cooperate in it but that it is the Holy Spirit doing the real work. I saw a cartoon and it might have been on this site of a picture of a man laying down on an escalator and the caption said Sanctification.

Sorry to butt in, but this is where I have been confused lately - the idea that "the Holy Spirit does the real work, but we cooperate". I was reading the Statement of Faith for a particular evangelical denomination (not saying which), that implied the same thing about salvation - it is by grace through faith, a work of the Holy Spirit, of which we can do nothing. But we respond in faith to the call of the Holy Spirit. (Say again????)
Somehow I get this vision in my mind of me as a kid, and my dad out mowing the lawn. He comes in and chews me out for not helping, and I say "But dad, I did help. Didn't you see me pushing the mower?"
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Sorry to butt in, but this is where I have been confused lately - the idea that "the Holy Spirit does the real work, but we cooperate". I was reading the Statement of Faith for a particular evangelical denomination (not saying which), that implied the same thing about salvation - it is by grace through faith, a work of the Holy Spirit, of which we can do nothing. But we respond in faith to the call of the Holy Spirit. (Say again????)
Somehow I get this vision in my mind of me as a kid, and my dad out mowing the lawn. He comes in and chews me out for not helping, and I say "But dad, I did help. Didn't you see me pushing the mower?"

This is why, IMO, it is SO very, very critical to not mix Law and Gospel, Sanctification with Justification (narrow sense, both). And yes, sadly (tragically) there are "Protestants" who have entirely turned their backs on the Reformation and as a result, do confuse these - ending up with a horrible, muddy, tangled MESS that in the end makes SELF the Savior (and Jesus but a helper) - creating either a 'terror of the conscience" (to use Luther and Calvin's expression) OR a little self-righteous, other-condemning Pharisee.


Justification.... Sanctification.... There are TWO DIFFERENT issue here: Justification and Sanctification (narrow sense, both).

Let me use this analogy:

FIRST: On January 23, 1988, I was born. I was GIVEN life - the miracle, the wonderful, mysterious GIFT of life (we might agree that actually happened about 9 months earlier, but let's proceed). At that point, I became alive. I became a human being - with all that means, biologically and spiritually, all that means in terms of God and me. GIFT. G.I.F.T. This purely, solely, only, exclusively by mercy since prior to that, I did NOTHING. I thought nothing. I willed nothing. I sought nothing. I desired nothing. NO good works. GIFT. G.I.F.T. Mercy. M.E.R.C.Y. On January 23, 1988 - I was removed from my mother (C-Section) - unbreathing, unconscience - I had NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING. N.O.T.H.I.N.G. Gift. Mercy. No merits. No works. No will. Nothing in or from me. GIFT. MERCY. Someone ELSE is to be credited. Entirely. Wholly. Completely. MONERGISTIC. Life is mine - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT. I am a human being, with all that means - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT.

In the same way, God saved me (what Protestants mean here is justification - narrow sense, although admittedly they often use the rather broad term "salvation" here). God GAVE me spiritual life, God caused me to be born AGAIN, now not only with physical life but with spiritual life, now I am not only the child of my parents but a child of God. This CHANGES my relationship to God, as a result solely, only, exclusively because of God's mercy, grace, favor; solely, only, exclusively because of what CHRIST has done as THE Savior; solely, only, exclusively because God GAVE me the GIFT of faith in Christ as my Savior: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. We believe this is MONERGISTIC, because CHRIST is the Savior - not me, not you, not the Pope, not Mary, not the RC Denomination, not now, not ever, not wholly, not partly. I'm NOT the Savior - in whole or in part - because the job is taken and He didn't blow it. What makes me a CHRISTIAN is that God's merciful, gracious GIFT of faith means I'm looking to CHRIST as THE Savior, not in the mirror. Trusting/relying wholly in CHRIST, not self. Looking to the Cross/Tomb, not in the mirror.

SECOND: Almost immediately after being born (well, maybe some months later, lol), my parents, my society called me to GROW. To mature. To become more loving, more caring, more righteous, more responsible, more ethical. THIS is a process (unlike my conception). THIS is synergistic (unlike conception). THIS is progressive. GROWING to be more God like. GROWING in the directions that my parents, my society, my God call me: "Thou shalt be HOLY just as the Lord God is holy." "Thou shalt be PERFECT just as your Father in Heaven is perfect." "LOVE in exactly the same way as Christ loved us on the Cross." High callings! I'm not "there" yet. I'm still GROWING (well, I'd LIKE to say always growing..... sometimes I'm not, sometimes I even retreat). And I do so in large part because of God's EMPOWERING, not due to some innate homo sapien ability. Yes..... in a few cases, the Bible also calls this "grace" but the CONTEXT tells us this is different, here it means "strength" or "empowering". It is still ours by mercy (we don't DESIRE anything from Him), but here it means strength. This growing up, this discipleship, this CHRISTIAN-walk is something a CHRISTIAN does, not something that makes one a Christian; it is the RESULT of justification not the cause. My being nice to my neighbor is not what causes me to have physical life, having physical life enables me to be nice to my neighbor. What I do as a growing, maturing, developing man is not what makes me a homo sapien nor worthy of being given life.

It is NOT a case of SELF somehow taping into the "gas" God gives in order to slowly "save" self in a SYNERGISTIC process - almost never complete in one lifetime and so (as in Hinduism) more time is supplied to finish the job, salvation being a JOINT EFFORT: Jesus doing what He can (perhaps) but it's insuffient, inadequate, He fails as a Savior - so we come to the rescue to help save Him from being a failure by supplying what He could not: Jesus does what He could (but it's inadequate, a failure) so WE help Him but adding the really important part, the part that actually results in our salvation (albeit we won't get the job done before we die - thus the RCC now gives us Purgatory). In the view of Protestants, too many are confusing DIFFERENT ISSUES: man and God, law and gospel, sancatification and justification - leading to the Christless, Crossless, Bloodless, merciless religion we hear; nearly indistingishable from Judaism and Islam, all boasting of SELF. Yes, they might say we get HELP - A point Jews and Muslims ALWAYS point out, always stress. But God HELPING us gain life is not the same as God GIVING us life. What I see is actually not a blending or confusing or entangling different issues, but the actual ABANDONMENT - entirely - of grace, mercy, Christ, the Cross, the Blood, in spite of such talk. The Gospel has simply been .... abandoned. What is left is just the growing part, the walk part, the maturing part. Christ AS SAVIOR has been lost (the key point of CHRISTianity!), all that is left is the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu point of getting closer to heaven each day by what WE do - with the HELP of God. Too often, Christians IMO essentially abandon our faith and embrace a variant of Judaism or Islam or Hinduism. As several taught me in a certain denomination, "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it" and "God helps those who help themselves." IMO, that's not Christianity. That's the horrible, tragic result of blending, confusing, mixing, entangling DIFFERENT things: Law and Gospel, Sanctification and Justification, self and Jesus.


When these two DIFFERENT aspects are confused, entangled, mixed up, blended - we end up with the MESS we too often see in Christianity (and all too often in modern forms of "Protestantism" - as ironic as that is since this is the very point rejected by the Reformation)



My half cent.


Pax


- Josiah
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom