The earth is flat !

[Stravinsk]

That, by itself, means nothing. It doesn't mean the all the countries are lying about Antarctica. If all the countries are keeping this big vast secret then that would be extraordinary. Somebody, somewhere would get ticked off and "spill the beans".

I see a lot of hyperbole and accusations in that video. No proof of anything. They want let drive across Antarctica so that means the earth is flat is a stupid argument.

Lying about Antarctica doesn't prove the earth is flat. Making it extremely difficult to traverse it, and uniquely isolating it among all land masses in the world does not do so either. What it does do is make it highly suspicious as to the reasons why. Flora and fawna and wildlife is treated in the various treaties as if it's the most precious and sacred in the world. What the video does prove is the enormous amount of red tape and bureaucracy involved in any non-governmental voyages, and to me the answer is simple. They don't care if you trek across any other harsh region and kill yourself or step on some plants or frighten some wildlife. Only here. That means one thing. There's something there they want to hide.

 

[Stravinsk]

So you are saying the earth is a flat square or rectangle and it is some kind of miracle that you can go from East to West without having to come to an "edge"

.View attachment 1863

I said I wasn't dogmatic about it, but in my research it's the only map among flat earth maps that actually fits. It fits reality (navigation, daylight times etc), it fits in the sense that we can only traverse (the entire world) E-W and W-E and that there are 0 flights say from the top of Alaska to the bottom of South America or the top of Russia to the bottom of Australia.

Your bible describes the Earth as "God's footstool" Isaiah 66:1. Which comparison best fits? A globe, a flat disk, or something more square/rectangular?

Psalm 103:2 likens East from West as a vast distance, instead of just trajectories. Why?

In Job 38, God describes the world that:

Has foundations
Has Stars that Sing
Has Seas with doors

Does your globe and space model come anywhere near these descriptions?

In the story of the flood, heavens gates were opened and waters poured in from the sky. After the flood, the waters were released from the earth so land appeared again. Your globe and gravity can't fit here, but this model does.

If space is real, then your bible lies in so many places regarding the earth. For there is no "waters above" to flood the earth, and there is no place for them to go after the flood. There are no boundaries or foundations, not doors/gates, and the stars (as described in Revelation) do not fall to the earth, as "distant suns".

I am simply amazed that so called Christians revere the bible in their lip service to it, but can't see that their globe/space indoctrination mocks what the bible says about the earth on so many levels. I mean, why even hold these Scriptures in esteem? Why not just say man discovered that God was lying, or that God wasn't really speaking? And where is your heaven? Out there in space somewhere?

Have you ever read:

Isaiah 14:13-14
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

You sure you aren't worshiping the devil with a Jesus named attached?

 

[Joshua1Eight]

Ancient rabbanic literature goes into great detail about a spherical world and how all people, standing upright, do so round about the sphere.
ancient peoples have always known the world to be round, provide me an ancient text that says otherwise.

Look at the round earth, there is an above, and a below, there are waters above, and waters below.

Ancient greeks knew what matter was and what matter was made of, they also were the first to come up with the evolution theory.

Ancients built the pyramids... my point is that humanity got dumb around the middle ages, people believed anything back then, then we learned again, even though some people in power had always known, and they werent happy.

personally I believe the world is the size and shape of texas since I haven't yet traveled afar

bleh

Are you being sarcastic?

 

[Lanman87]

I said I wasn't dogmatic about it, but in my research it's the only map among flat earth maps that actually fits.

But it doesn't fit. Flat Earthers have an issue. The Pizza Map has the wrong latitudes and longitudes and wrong distances between continents. Timezones don't work and a whole host of other issues on a "circle map" A square map doesn't allow for east/west travel without coming up on the edge of the earth. You can only go so far in any direction on a square/rectangle earth.

If space is real, then your bible lies in so many places regarding the earth. For there is no "waters above"

Genesis 7:11 says the waters came from two places "The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven". (Windows were some kind of openings in the sky that allowed the waters above to come down to earth).

Personally, I believe that the waters "above heaven" in Genesis 1:6,7 was what God used for the flood. At the time these waters were transferred to the earth. This began the cycle of waters evaporating from the ground and become clouds and coming back down again as rain. So yes, the globe and gravity perfectly fits with the waters in Genesis 1:6.7. All you have to do is keep reading Genesis to see what happened to those waters.

Psalm 103:2 likens East from West as a vast distance, instead of just trajectories. Why?

11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.

Both as high as the heavens are above the earth and as far as the east is from the west doesn't mean a "vast distance" It means "infinite".

The heavens, as far was we know, are infinite, they have no end. Therefore God's love for us has no end.
If you go north you eventually start going south. This is because we have a "north pole" and a "south pole". If you have a compass it would flip from N to S when you cross the north pole. However, you can go east forever and never go west. The only way this is possible is on a spherical earth.

If you are on a rectangle earth the you eventually have to stop going east (or north, south and west). On the circle map (that you don't think is real) you can circle the earth without stopping but you can't go east forever. If you go due east you will eventually come to the "ice pack" and have to alter your course.

What is interesting is that when Psalm 103 was written the compass hadn't been invented yet. They didn't know about the north pole and magnets. Yet the writer still uses "east from the west" as a metaphor for "infinite".

There are no boundaries or foundations, not doors/gates, and the stars (as described in Revelation) do not fall to the earth, as "distant suns".

The Bible, like all writings, narratives, and literature uses metaphors and symbolism. All you have to do is look at the "I AM" statements of Jesus in John to understand this.

Jesus said "I am the bread of life" John 6:35
I am the light of the world John 8:12
I am the Door John 10:9
I am the Good Shepherd John 10:11,14
I am the the Vine John 15:15

Jesus also told us He came to bring us "living water", John 7:37-39

Jesus is metaphorically and symbolically all of those things. Physically he is none of those things. The same can be said of "boundaries, foundations, doors/gates and stars falling to the earth". They are metaphors/symbols that are used to point out a truth about God.

When Isaiah 66:1-2 says

Thus says the Lord:
“Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool;
what is the house that you would build for me,
and what is the place of my rest?
2 All these things my hand has made,
and so all these things came to be,
declares the Lord.
But this is the one to whom I will look:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit
and trembles at my word.

It doesn't mean that heaven is a big chair and the earth is stool that God is propping His feet on. It is a metaphor to show us our insignificance. God is the ultimate King over all creation so any "house we would build for Him" is insignificant. No matter how grand of a building/temple the Jews could build it would be nothing compared to God's creation.

We aren't blessed (or looked upon) by our own grand efforts, We are "looked upon" if we have humble and contrite spirits and tremble at His word.

 

[Stravinsk]

But it doesn't fit. Flat Earthers have an issue. The Pizza Map has the wrong latitudes and longitudes and wrong distances between continents. Timezones don't work and a whole host of other issues on a "circle map"

Eh, already said I don't believe in this map, yet you keep bringing it up to make points. Try a little intellectual honesty.

A square map doesn't allow for east/west travel without coming up on the edge of the earth. You can only go so far in any direction on a square/rectangle earth.

The square/rectangular map does indeed have one fantastical element that is outside our experience. Circumvention by E-W and W-E sans a circle to do so. This does not mean it's not reality, it just means that it is not something we experience here on earth.

Biblically, it fits with the doors/gates concept. A door to the far east brings us to the far west and vice versa, as well as having these "ends" be far distances from each other when considering the span of the world that is between them.

Extra-biblically (but referenced in the Bible) is the book of Enoch. Here the sun also goes through portals or "doors" that are located at the East and West "ends".

Sure, it's fantastic or extra-ordinary, but the concept is consistent in the ancient literature. The biblical writers certainly knew about circles and how to travel in a perfect circle to arrive at the same starting point of that circle - but the point is - they didn't use this concept to describe the earth. While "circle" is used in Isaiah ("circle of the earth") the Hebrew word actually means "circuit" - the idea that one end is tied to another, whether we can see it or not. That being said - if we *could* see it, there'd be little use for doors, gates and portals, right?

Genesis 7:11 says the waters came from two places "The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven". (Windows were some kind of openings in the sky that allowed the waters above to come down to earth).

Personally, I believe that the waters "above heaven" in Genesis 1:6,7 was what God used for the flood. At the time these waters were transferred to the earth. This began the cycle of waters evaporating from the ground and become clouds and coming back down again as rain. So yes, the globe and gravity perfectly fits with the waters in Genesis 1:6.7. All you have to do is keep reading Genesis to see what happened to those waters.

So, you don't believe that rain existed before the flood. That's over 1000 years. Hmm. I wonder how everyone, including the animals ate.

Another problem with your theory, biblically, is that the psalm writer who writes this:

Psalm 148:4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

Is certainly writing it post flood.

11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.

Both as high as the heavens are above the earth and as far as the east is from the west doesn't mean a "vast distance" It means "infinite".

The heavens, as far was we know, are infinite, they have no end. Therefore God's love for us has no end.
If you go north you eventually start going south. This is because we have a "north pole" and a "south pole". If you have a compass it would flip from N to S when you cross the north pole. However, you can go east forever and never go west. The only way this is possible is on a spherical earth.

Like I said before, infinite E-W travel is the only extra-ordinary part of a rectangular/square model. Outside our experience doesn't necessarily = impossible. That being said, I believe you are wrong about infinite N-S travel. There are simply no flights that I am aware of that would take advantage of the shorter distance crossing these poles to reach land masses on the other side. I refer you again to flight radar website. If you can show me just 1 flight that crosses the N or S pole, I would stand corrected.

If you are on a rectangle earth the you eventually have to stop going east (or north, south and west). On the circle map (that you don't think is real) you can circle the earth without stopping but you can't go east forever. If you go due east you will eventually come to the "ice pack" and have to alter your course.

What is interesting is that when Psalm 103 was written the compass hadn't been invented yet. They didn't know about the north pole and magnets. Yet the writer still uses "east from the west" as a metaphor for "infinite".



The Bible, like all writings, narratives, and literature uses metaphors and symbolism. All you have to do is look at the "I AM" statements of Jesus in John to understand this.

Jesus said "I am the bread of life" John 6:35
I am the light of the world John 8:12
I am the Door John 10:9
I am the Good Shepherd John 10:11,14
I am the the Vine John 15:15

Jesus also told us He came to bring us "living water", John 7:37-39

Jesus is metaphorically and symbolically all of those things. Physically he is none of those things. The same can be said of "boundaries, foundations, doors/gates and stars falling to the earth". They are metaphors/symbols that are used to point out a truth about God.

Well, there we have it. Stars singing, boundaries, foundations, gates, doors and waters above spitting out of heaven's windows then going somewhere to unflood the earth are all metaphors cuz...we like globe and gravity and space.

When Isaiah 66:1-2 says

Thus says the Lord:
“Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool;
what is the house that you would build for me,
and what is the place of my rest?
2 All these things my hand has made,
and so all these things came to be,
declares the Lord.
But this is the one to whom I will look:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit
and trembles at my word.

It doesn't mean that heaven is a big chair and the earth is stool that God is propping His feet on. It is a metaphor to show us our insignificance. God is the ultimate King over all creation so any "house we would build for Him" is insignificant. No matter how grand of a building/temple the Jews could build it would be nothing compared to God's creation.

We aren't blessed (or looked upon) by our own grand efforts, We are "looked upon" if we have humble and contrite spirits and tremble at His word.

I'm afraid you don't tremble at His word mate. When you come across things that don't fit your globe indoctrination, it's dismissed as metaphor or outright false.

 

[Stravinsk]

@Andywilliams1 , all other FE'rs and investigators:

WHY THE OFFICIAL FLAT EARTH CIRCLE MODEL IS WRONG AND WHY IT MATTERS [720p]

The model presented is consistent with known reality, sun times, navigation etc. It is also consistent with Scripture.

 

[Lanman87]

The square/rectangular map does indeed have one fantastical element that is outside our experience. Circumvention by E-W and W-E sans a circle to do so. This does not mean it's not reality, it just means that it is not something we experience here on earth.

At least you are intellectually honest enough to admit that a square/rectangular earth causes people to defy the natural laws of time, space, and physics. Basically, you are saying the God made a world that looks like the video game Asteroids. When someone gets to the edge of the screen they magically appear on the other side going in the same direction.

If you can show me just 1 flight that crosses the N or S pole, I would stand corrected.

There are a bunch

Well, there we have it. Stars singing, boundaries, foundations, gates, doors and waters above spitting out of heaven's windows then going somewhere to unflood the earth are all metaphors cuz...we like globe and gravity and space.

Is God a Rock?

He is the rock! His work is perfect, for all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice, righteous and upright is He. Deuteronomy 32:4

The Lord is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. Psalm 18:2

Are you a piece of salt?

You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. Matthew 5:13

Is Jesus a lamb? I thought He is a man who is the son of God.

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Rev 5:8

 

[Stravinsk]

At least you are intellectually honest enough to admit that a square/rectangular earth causes people to defy the natural laws of time, space, and physics. Basically, you are saying the God made a world that looks like the video game Asteroids. When someone gets to the edge of the screen they magically appear on the other side going in the same direction.

Sounds crazy, doesn't it? Except that the bible you say you tremble at describes the seas with boundaries and doors. A door allows for two way travel, but even an open door will not allow an object larger than it to pass through. The point isn't largeness or smallness, however, it's the concept of selective admittance. There is no place for it on the globe model with regards to seas.

There are a bunch

Well now. Interesting maps! I see the left hand side uses the false AE or circular map to make it's false point. And the right hand map deceptively looks like it's *crossing* the south pole when really the pathways are just at a low latitude.

Go back to flightradar24 - and show me a flight that starts North or South of a pole, crosses completely over it and comes out the other side. You won't find one. All circumvention is E-W and W-E.

Is God a Rock?

He is the rock! His work is perfect, for all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice, righteous and upright is He. Deuteronomy 32:4

The Lord is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. Psalm 18:2

Are you a piece of salt?

You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. Matthew 5:13

Is Jesus a lamb? I thought He is a man who is the son of God.

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Rev 5:8

Because the bible uses metaphor does not give anyone license to assume a metaphor is being used when something doesn't fit their preconceptions. No one, for instance, would take "you are the salt of the earth" and conclude humans make good seasoning.

As for your attached pics at the bottom...? What are they supposed to prove?

 

[Lanman87]

Go back to flightradar24

Flightradar24 isn't an accurate representation of the earth. It is a two dimensional representation of a three dimensional world. Those pictures show an actual flat path and the flat path on a flat map.

This is a flight path from Australia to South Africa depicted on a 2d flat map. Notice, the flight path isn't in a straight line. That is because the flight path is actually flying over a curved surface. BTW- this pic came from an Airline website. If the earth is flat then airlines are wasting a lot of time and money flying in a semi-circle instead of a straight path. This is explained here. And even more here, with what a polar route looks like on a flat map.


This is the same flight path on a 3D map

 

[Lanman87]

Interesting maps! I see the left hand side uses the false AE or circular map to make it's false point.

This isn't the AE map. It is a map of a spherical earth from above the North Pole. These are historical and verifiable routes taken by airlines.

Here is a another article on a pilot blog

Here is an article of how a Pan Am plane set the record for circumnavigating the world via the North and South Poles

Here is a link to a copy of a pdf file (link will download the pdf to your device) put out by Boeing about flying over the Polar Regions.

If you can show me just 1 flight that crosses the N or S pole, I would stand corrected.

You said to show you one flight. I've shown you several.

 

[Lanman87]

Go back to flightradar24

I've found a website that lets you put in airport codes and generate flight paths. You can generate the path on a flat map similar to flighttrader24 or a 3d Map that shows the actual route. The website is gcmap.com

Here is the flight path from Anchorage AK to Moscow on two different maps.

First is a 2d Map. This is what you would see if you tracked the flight on flighttrader24. If this is the actual flight path then the pilot must be drunk.



The second is the Great Circle map, which is an accurate depiction of the shortest route between Anchorage and Moscow and the route the plan will take.

 

[Stravinsk]

I've found a website that lets you put in airport codes and generate flight paths. You can generate the path on a flat map similar to flighttrader24 or a 3d Map that shows the actual route. The website is gcmap.com

Here is the flight path from Anchorage AK to Moscow on two different maps.

First is a 2d Map. This is what you would see if you tracked the flight on flighttrader24. If this is the actual flight path then the pilot must be drunk.

View attachment 1873

The second is the Great Circle map, which is an accurate depiction of the shortest route between Anchorage and Moscow and the route the plan will take.

View attachment 1874

All I'm seeing here is a flight that travels at a far north latitude, not a path that completely circumvents it. Try seeing if the website you found will chart a flight from Anchorage, Alaska to Buenos Aires, Argentina. Oh wait, using the website you referrenced, I already did:

As you can see...we are not even near Buenos Aires, Argentina yet. Seems there is a stop over near the Costa Rica Area...then another long treck over to Argentina.

Hmm. Seems going the opposite direction and traversing the North pole would be far quicker, especially for flights with low numbers of passengers. Can you imagine a world where so many people in the Costa Rica region wanting to go to Argentina justify flying a small number of people from Alaska all the way over the continental United States to pick them up in Costa Rica, then fly around that distance again? Can't imagine the fuel costs alone!

 

[Stravinsk]

Here's one from ENAS (Ny-Ålesund, Svalbard, Norway) to Capetown (CPT):

Here again, there's no crossing the North pole to save on fuel. Doesn't look like any stop-overs either. I guess airlines are in the business of wasting money and time....

 

[Lanman87]

As you can see...we are not even near Buenos Aires, Argentina yet. Seems there is a stop over near the Costa Rica Area...then another long treck over to Argentina.

I think you put in the wrong airport code for Buenos Aries. It is EVE. You put in (BAI) Buenos Aires Airport is an airport serving Buenos Aires, a city in the Puntarenas Province of Costa Rica.

 

[Stravinsk]

Alert Airport (Canada) to Capetown:

 

[Lanman87]

Here again, there's no crossing the North pole to save on fuel

If you cross the north pole you are still in the Northern Hemisphere. The other side of the north pole from Norway is not South America, it is Alaska/Russia then the Pacific Ocean

 

[Lanman87]

Alert Airport (Canada) to Capetown:

If you go north from Canada and cross the North Pole you end up in Russia. Not Africa. Plus, why wouldn't the pilot fly straight down instead of going out of his way to go over Europe?

 

[Lanman87]

Alert Airport (Canada) to Capetown:

I just figured out that you think if you went north from Canada you would end up in the Southern Hemisphere instead the other side of the Northern Hemisphere. Those maps you are getting are 100% right. They show the shortest distance between the two points you are putting in on the earth.

Here is the actual flight path. Notice if you went the other way you would have to cross the arctic ocean, Alaska, the entire Pacific, and Antarctica to get to Cape Town. Also, notice it is a straight line instead of a curved line like on the flat map.

 

[Stravinsk]

Whether lines are curved or straight is undoubtedly the bias of the software doing the mapping. Be it a flat map (with a curved route) or a Globe with a straight route is neither here nor there. Both pictures you present are based on an unproven globe model.

Btw, any answers to stuff like this:

In another thread several years ago one of the members here was adamant that the globe pics shown here were taken at different distances and this somehow accounted for North America shrinking by around 2/3. Would you make the same claim or would you just state that these aren't official NASA photos or something?

 

[Andrew]

Are you being sarcastic?

yes I am totally not being sarcastic, the Earth is flat and round.