The earth is flat !

[tango]

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[Stravinsk]

The Space program started in earnest in the early 60's. CGI didn't exist at all until the 90's and even then CGI looked faked. Star Wars in 1977 was the first movie that didn't look like spaceships were hanging from a string (just look at the original Star Trek and Lost in Space TV shows). Even then, the original Star Wars trilogy didn't use CGI and it still looked fake.

Well, you must be unique among early star wars fans, as nearly no one (I know of or heard of) had a problem immersing themselves in the space fantasy it represented enough to not enjoy it. Star Wars didn't use advanced CGI, sure, but there are (were) plenty of filming tricks available to provide the necessary graphics needed to make a believable sci-fi.

Elon Musk sells a product to bot the government and private companies. That product is placing satellites in earth orbit for a variety of reasons. Elon Musk wants to make money and if his product is fake/doesn't work then he will not make money. He is also making money off starlink, the satellite based internet service. Which he would not have been able to implement if satellites weren't real.

You are probably unaware that nearly all internet uses undersea cables to hook up servers across nations. Don't take my word for it, look it up.

My experience with Flat Earthers is they see what they want to see. Any picture/video of an optical illusion that makes the earth look flat is real and any picture/video that shows a curved planet is CGI.

Eh, no. Most of the curved "footage" is done using fish eye lenses at varying focal strengths, although there is certainly some CGI in there as well.

As for seeing what one wants to see, I find your ascribing this to flat earther's laughable. The amount of Flat Earth memes out there portraying believers as retarded and intellectually inferior is without measure. Who would want to be one? Besides this, there is no born flat earthers. Every single one of them was taught about the globe and solar system. Many of them (like I was) were avid science fiction fans. I remember very well when I first came upon the subject and my mind was being blown by convincing evidence...that I thought "oh no...no no no...if this is true, I really don't want to know". But I kept looking into it.

They come up with arguments that don't take into account basic physics, known natural optical illusions, how ships and planes navigate on a curved earth (if the earth was flat then all these ships captains and pilots would get lost because they have taken into account the curve of the earth since global travel became a thing), and just says things that exist don't exist. For instance, the insistence that there are no direct flights over the Southern Hemisphere. Or that it is illegal for civilians to go to Antarctica.

Oh, so I guess you don't know about the Antarctic Treaty eh?

The Southern Hemisphere thing...depends on the map that's used. Most FE'rs use an AE map (which, in my view, is not correct). That said, there are no pole-to-pole flights. Be it by sea or air, all circumvention is east to west or west to east.

Trying to "debunk" Flat Earthers is pointless, there is no amount of debunking that will prove to them that their belief is false. Short of sticking them in a rocket and launching them into space so they can see for themselves, they will not believe.

And...this was exactly my point to dear Lamb. You see...within a few short years of the invention of automobiles and planes, very sizeable chunks of the world's population were using them. Not so with space travel. How long exactly have we been promised civilians living on mars or the moon? Oh, that's right, since BEFORE the 60's in film, throughout all the decades up to the present in film, and by the promises of several politicians.

But unlike planes and automobiles - only for special people. Mostly freemasons. The rest of us have to be satisfied with films and rides at Disneyland.

Sadly, there are bunch of "Flat Earth" preachers who are making a lot of money from people watching Youtube videos, speaking at Flat Earth conferences, and selling flat earth merchandise. My guess is most of those "preachers" are just using gullible people to make a living.

Sadly, there are a plethora of Christians who pay lip service to the bible but actually deny what it says when it comes to space. For the bible is clear in various places that there is WATER above the FIRMAMENT - but so called "believers" DENY THIS.

 

[Lanman87]

You are probably unaware that nearly all internet uses undersea cables to hook up servers across nations. Don't take my word for it, look it up.

I work in I.T. and have built computer networks for almost 30 years. Satellites are real. Also, when you put point to point microwave transmitters on towers and you have to adjust for the curve of the earth. It is part of the equation when planning microwave networks.

How to cruise ships get internet? The answer, when they are close to shore they use cell signals. When they get far enough away from shore that cell will not work they use Satellites.

You can't send data on analog short-wave radio signals. At least not at the speeds needed to service the crew and passengers of ship. There are a couple of companies trying to develop short wave internet transmissions but so far they have had very limited success.

Oh, so I guess you don't know about the Antarctic Treaty eh?

The Antarctic treaty doesn't prevent anyone from traveling to Antarctica. If you have the money and the time you are more than welcome to go walk with the Penguins.

Be it by sea or air, all circumvention is east to west or west to east.

That is not true. There are flights (at least there were pre-pandemic) that went South from Buenos Aires and Santiago to Sydney and Auckland. Those flights are 9-12 hours. Can you produce a flat earth map where you can make that flight in 12 hours and never leave the Southern Hemisphere?

 

[Stravinsk]

I work in I.T. and have built computer networks for almost 30 years. Satellites are real.

Eh, the first statement doesn't qualify the other. I don't care what you claim to be. But you should, as an IT person, be aware that much internet communications take place with underwater cables.

Also, when you put point to point microwave transmitters on towers and you have to adjust for the curve of the earth. It is part of the equation when planning microwave networks.

You are more likely adjusting for the bouncing of whatever signals is being sent/received off the ionosphere. Hate to break it to you, but world wide communications predate so called "satellites".

Btw, you ever heard of project loon? Loon LLC - Wikipedia

Please enlighten me why this is even REMOTELY NECESSARY if satellites can just beam info to any area on earth.

How to cruise ships get internet? The answer, when they are close to shore they use cell signals. When they get far enough away from shore that cell will not work they use Satellites.

Or project loon. Or more primitive tech used during the first world wars. I admit I'm guessing here, I don't go on cruise ships - but what I am aware of is that many people cannot get even a signal when they are in a remote location, land or sea.

You can't send data on analog short-wave radio signals. At least not at the speeds needed to service the crew and passengers of ship. There are a couple of companies trying to develop short wave internet transmissions but so far they have had very limited success.


The Antarctic treaty doesn't prevent anyone from traveling to Antarctica. If you have the money and the time you are more than welcome to go walk with the Penguins.

Never said the Treaty did prevent travel to Antarctica. You are the one that made the claim that FE'rs say we can't go. We can go...but only so far south. No ordinary citizen can legally go beyond certain points in Antarctica. That's not the same as saying one can't go at all.

That is not true. There are flights (at least there were pre-pandemic) that went South from Buenos Aires and Santiago to Sydney and Auckland. Those flights are 9-12 hours. Can you produce a flat earth map where you can make that flight in 12 hours and never leave the Southern Hemisphere?

View attachment 1861

This is a straw man argument. I said from my very first post here I didn't believe in the AE map. Besides this, I said CIRCUMNAVIGATION, not merely traveling from one continent to the next in the southern hemiplane(sphere as you'd say). There are 0 flights that circumnavigate from N to S or S to N. If this is unclear - no flights can start at any point on the earth, travel N or S and come back to the same point. Now you may understand why FE'rs make a big deal of Antarctica. There must be a reason we can only visit certain parts of it, and after a certain point South...no ordinary citizen of any country can legally go further.

 

[Stravinsk]

Since satellites is a topic under the topic of discussion, here's some more info for anyone interested:

Satellites Don’t Exist

Discusses land based communications in operation since WW2 (example: LORAN), the connection between sci-fi dreamer Arthur C. Clark-2001, a Space Odyssey an Stanly Kubric (director for movie and "moon landings") - and a host of communication technologies that are all designed to work for communications WITHIN OUR ATMOSPHERE.

 

[Lanman87]

You are more likely adjusting for the bouncing of whatever signals is being sent/received off the ionosphere. Hate to break it to you, but world wide communications predate so called "satellites".

Btw, you ever heard of project loon? Loon LLC - Wikipedia

Please enlighten me why this is even REMOTELY NECESSARY if satellites can just beam info to any area on earth.

First, Satellites are expensive to launch and maintain. In the mid-2010's companies were looking for ways to bring internet to rural/remote areas. Project Loon was one of several projects exploring ways to make the internet more accessible. It didn't work and was shut down. When SpaceX demonstrated that they could provide rural areas high speed internet via private satellites that were cheaper to launch and maintain then most of the other projects shut down. Including the testing of using power lines to supply internet services.

Also, the advent of 4G cellular coverage made the need for an alternative internet delivery method less critical.

Second, point to point Microwave uses a focused microwave transmission. Microwave antennas are pointed at each other to set up a point to point link. An analogy would be setting up two laser pointers across a football field and having to have the beams meet exactly in the middle. Point to Point microwave is used in place of Fiber/leased lines and are used as backup network connections for mission critical networks. The two antennas have to be pointed directly at each other for a link to be established. That is why you have to take the curvature of the earth into account (among many other things) when building towers and placement of the antennas. Even being off by 5-10 feet can keep you from establishing a link between sites. P2P Microwave towers can be up to 60 miles apart and the antennas can be as small as a home satellite dish so it takes a lot of precision math to get the correct placement of the antennas.

Or more primitive tech used during the first world wars

Primitive tech was capable of transmitting voice and teletype using a combination of analog telephone and radio signals. The amount of data was miniscule. Today, you can be sitting in a ship in the middle of the Atlantic and save and access megabytes of data. And while it is true that Fiber is ran all over the world, but Fiber can't be everywhere. Satellite internet is still not near as fast as Fiber, but it is much faster than it was even five years ago.

No ordinary citizen can legally go beyond certain points in Antarctica.

I would like to see a source for this. An official source and not just some flat earther claiming this is the case.
Everything I've read says you can take a boat to Antarctica, take some beef jerky and a tent and go anywhere except a few scientific research facilities. Kinda like what his guy did.

This is a straw man argument.

Unless you can show how you can get from Austrailia to South American in 9-12 hours without having to cross the equator on a flat earth then it is a valid point.

 

[Lanman87]

Since satellites is a topic under the topic of discussion, here's some more info for anyone interested:

Satellites Don’t Exist

Discusses land based communications in operation since WW2 (example: LORAN), the connection between sci-fi dreamer Arthur C. Clark-2001, a Space Odyssey an Stanly Kubric (director for movie and "moon landings") - and a host of communication technologies that are all designed to work for communications WITHIN OUR ATMOSPHERE.

You've obviously never had to setup DirectTV. You have to have a clear path to a certain point in the sky and then you have to adjust the dish to point to the satellite. And please don't try and tell me it was a balloon. A balloon would never be able to remain still enough for communications. Winds and weather would toss a balloon around like a tennis ball.

 

[Stravinsk]

I would like to see a source for this. An official source and not just some flat earther claiming this is the case.
Everything I've read says you can take a boat to Antarctica, take some beef jerky and a tent and go anywhere except a few scientific research facilities. Kinda like what his guy did.

Wikipedia is not an official source, however it does list official sources for reference points. Basically, anything south of 60 latitude requires a permit. Here ya go: Antarctic Specially Protected Area - Wikipedia

Unless you can show how you can get from Austrailia to South American in 9-12 hours without having to cross the equator on a flat earth then it is a valid point.

Dude, I already told you I don't subscribe to the AE (pizza shaped) flat earth model. Yet, you keep bringing it up as if it's the only option. Besides, flying on that model or a globe model doesn't circumvent the earth. The point is, there is no N-S or S-N circumvention. I see I haven't been clear on this. So here's an example:

Start from any point in the world. Say, Los Angeles. Travel due North, and keep traveling due north until you reach Los Angeles again. It doesn't happen, because on our earth, the only circumnavigation happens on an E-W or W-E course. One CAN travel E from LA and eventually reach LA again (or W), but not North to South or vice versa.

And if you don't believe me, just check out any center where flights are logged. You will only see E-W and W-E circumnavigation. No one is flying North from Canada to reach the bottom of South America, or North from the top of Russia to reach Australia:

Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map | Flightradar24

 

[Stravinsk]

You've obviously never had to setup DirectTV. You have to have a clear path to a certain point in the sky and then you have to adjust the dish to point to the satellite. And please don't try and tell me it was a balloon. A balloon would never be able to remain still enough for communications. Winds and weather would toss a balloon around like a tennis ball.

You very obviously didn't read anything on that page. Sheesh.

 

[Lanman87]

Dude, I already told you I don't subscribe to the AE (pizza shaped) flat earth model

I want to know what earth model you do subscribe to that would allow the Travel from Australia to South American in the Southern Hemisphere in 9-12 hours. I don't care if it is pizza shaped or not.

 

[Lanman87]

Wikipedia is not an official source, however it does list official sources for reference points. Basically, anything south of 60 latitude requires a permit. Here ya go: Antarctic Specially Protected Area - Wikipedia

I said that there are scientific research facilities that you can't go into. Which is all that article references.

 

[Stravinsk]

I want to know what earth model you do subscribe to that would allow the Travel from Australia to South American in the Southern Hemisphere in 9-12 hours. I don't care if it is pizza shaped or not.

I never made any claim about time to and from these destinations. I have no idea how long it takes. I just took a quick gander at flight times and see most with 2 stops are way upwards of 20hours...so not sure what your point is?

 

[Stravinsk]

I said that there are scientific research facilities that you can't go into. Which is all that article references.

A whole bunch. That's EVERYTHING south of 60 degrees latitude. No one, absolutely no one, without a special permit, can step south of 60 degrees latitude. Because why? Is it a magical area down there or something?

 

[Lanman87]

I never made any claim about time to and from these destinations. I have no idea how long it takes. I just took a quick gander at flight times and see most with 2 stops are way upwards of 20hours...so not sure what your point is?

My point is, on a flat earth, no matter what "map" you use it is impossible for those flights to happen. I don't know if you can book a flight now due to Covid, They were expensive Direct flights from Qantas airlines back before the Pandemic.

A whole bunch. That's EVERYTHING south of 60 degrees latitude. No one, absolutely no one, without a special permit, can step south of 60 degrees latitude. Because why? Is it a magical area down there or something?

Not according to this map. The ASPA area takes up a fraction of Antarctica.

 

[Lanman87]

You very obviously didn't read anything on that page. Sheesh.

I'm doing some research on his page. His main problem is that he links this page as a source.

The writer makes it clear that these are all projects that are "alternatives to the terrestrial and satellite telecommunication systems."

Businesses are always trying to come up with ways to make things easier and less expensive. The HAPS paper seems to have been written in the early 2000's. I can find no evidence that any of these HAPs technology was ever implemented. Since the early 2000's a lot has changed. In particular the cellular data network, google fiber, cable tv offering broadband internet, and Starlink from SpaceX.

Whoever wrote this is quoting things that never happened as fact.

 

[Stravinsk]

My point is, on a flat earth, no matter what "map" you use it is impossible for those flights to happen. I don't know if you can book a flight now due to Covid, They were expensive Direct flights from Qantas airlines back before the Pandemic.

?
If you think it's impossible, then you are obviously looking at a specific FE map, not just "any FE map". I already told you, I don't subscribe to the AE map you keep looking at. I know it's faulty. So stop referencing it, please.

Not according to this map. The ASPA area takes up a fraction of Antarctica.

View attachment 1862

You don't understand mate. The whole of Antarctica is below 60 degrees latitude. Anyone going there needs a special permit. Now I've never applied, but I imagine anyone going on one of the sanctioned guided tours gets that permit when they sign up for the tour. So they'll take you to whatever areas the tour is set up for. But try taking a boat on your own and exploring on your own. That would be against the antarctic treaty - because it governs all of Antarctica (one could not even enter Antarctic waters past 60 degrees south) without a permit.

Do you think it not a bit strange that both Antarctica and the North Arctic are governed by treaties where no one can go exploring on their own without a special permit that is unlikely to be granted outside of the hand-holding guided tours provided?

 

[Lanman87]

So stop referencing it, please.

I'm not referencing any map. I'm asking what your map looks like. How does it account for air travel, navigation, timezones, lattitude and longitude, tides, and so forth? How far apart are the countries? Where is Antarctica and how big is it? It is an ice wall like most flat earthers say?

Do you think it not a bit strange that both Antarctica and the North Arctic are governed by treaties where no one can go exploring on their own without a special permit that is unlikely to be granted outside of the hand-holding guided tours provided?

Not any more strange than I have to have a passport and entry visa (Permission) to go to the UK or France or Germany. It is a big, dangerous, desolate place. It would be pretty stupid to go without someone showing you how to not die. Although it you want to take a boat and sneak on to the continent I doubt they have border patrol. Go for it.

If Antarctica is an Ice Wall then how do you explain this?

Or this?

 

[Stravinsk]

I'm not referencing any map. I'm asking what your map looks like. How does it account for air travel, navigation, timezones, lattitude and longitude, tides, and so forth? How far apart are the countries? Where is Antarctica and how big is it? It is an ice wall like most flat earthers say?

At present, I'm not dogmatic about a map. However if pressed, I'd say the most probable one is a rectangular/square map similar to what one sees on the flightradar site I linked earlier. Obviously, there is no circle on this kind of map to show E-W and W-E circumnavigation. Therefore, it has an extra-ordinary quality about it, where the end of E intersects the beginning of W and vice versa.

Sun/daylight times, timezones, navigation are all in line with known reality on this type of map. One can travel E or W from any location and eventually come back to the same starting point, but one cannot do this going North or South to reach the same point. This, also, is in line with reality. There are no planes that circumvent the entire world by due S or due N trajectories.

Not any more strange than I have to have a passport and entry visa (Permission) to go to the UK or France or Germany. It is a big, dangerous, desolate place. It would be pretty stupid to go without someone showing you how to not die. Although it you want to take a boat and sneak on to the continent I doubt they have border patrol. Go for it.

If Antarctica is an Ice Wall then how do you explain this?

Or this?

So, you want to have an idea what it's like to go to Antarctica. It's very different from visiting any other place in the world. Now I found a video that shows what's involved.

*Please keep in mind that the flat earther in this video makes reference to the AE or circular map early in the video. As I've already stated, his circular map isn't one I believe is correct. That point however, is not the focus of the video - rather - what's involved if you want to go to Antarctica. Basically, if it's not a sanctioned tour, you can forget it.

Antarctica - Sorry We're Closed! Our Hidden Flat Earth

 

[Lanman87]

At present, I'm not dogmatic about a map. However if pressed, I'd say the most probable one is a rectangular/square map similar to what one sees on the flightradar site I linked earlier. Obviously, there is no circle on this kind of map to show E-W and W-E circumnavigation. Therefore, it has an extra-ordinary quality about it, where the end of E intersects the beginning of W and vice versa.

So you are saying the earth is a flat square or rectangle and it is some kind of miracle that you can go from East to West without having to come to an "edge"

.

 

[Lanman87]

Basically, if it's not a sanctioned tour, you can forget it.

That, by itself, means nothing. It doesn't mean the all the countries are lying about Antarctica. If all the countries are keeping this big vast secret then that would be extraordinary. Somebody, somewhere would get ticked off and "spill the beans".

I see a lot of hyperbole and accusations in that video. No proof of anything. They want let drive across Antarctica so that means the earth is flat is a stupid argument.