"Apocrypha" & The Gospel: Comparison Study #01

[Lanman87]

Wisdom shows us an event that the Son of God will be condemned to a shameful death and if God truly is his father he will help him.

Another thought.

Wisdom seems to be saying the reason for the beating and torture is to find out if this person is really the Son of God

Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.

That doesn't line up with the New Testament. The Pharisees didn't have Christ condemned to test and see if He was really the Son of God. They did so because Christ claimed to be God and they considered it blasphemy. That and they were afraid that if people followed Christ that they lose their power and influence.

At no point did a Pharisee stand up and say, "You now what, this guy claims to be the son of God. Let's insult and torture him and condemn him to a shameful death to see if God rescues him "

 

[Josiah]

This is a NON DEBATE Bible Study,

@Andy


Here's how you begin and entitle your opening post...

THE BOOK OF WISDOM
HOLY AND DIVINE SCRIPTURE?

That's a very specific QUESTION... and of course you know it's debatable. You set this whole thing up as a DEBATE.... around a very specific question.

your hostility of the Apocrypha, your truly are anti Apocrypha

Another baseless, unsubstantiated claim. Not one quote from me remotely indicating your claim is true.



Here is my often stated position on this.... please underline all the "anti-Apocrypha" and "hostility toward the Apocrypha" statements in it:

There are a number of books beyond "the 66" that numerous Christians have cherished, used, quoted, even called "Scripture" and placed into collections with "the 66" ... books perhaps 7 to 20 or so in number.... historical and important and helpful books, sometimes called "Deuterocanonical" or "Apocrypha." But these books have largely been forgotten among a few Christians today, especially modern American "Evangelicals." All would be blessed to embrace them again, blessed if all were encouraged to read them - perhaps not as fully canonical but certainly as inspirational and helpful."

And I've added, "Luther included 8 of these in his German translation (although sharing his own personal opinion that such are not fully canonical, not equal in every sense to the rest). My own Bible, published by the Lutheran Concordia Publishing House, has these 8 in it, along with numerous notes and cross references to the OT and NT. And my own Lutheran parish did a 6 month study of them. They are included in some Lutheran lectionaries, and there is a Lutheran daily lectionary exclusively of them."

As all know, that's my position. Which you have debated with me for about 2 years now.

Now, please explain to us all WHAT specific words in that position are "anti-Apocrypha" and reveal a "hostility" toward it by me.





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[Andrew]

A couple of thoughts:

First,

The fact He will be condemned to a shameful death is prevalent in the Old Testament. All you have to do is read Isaiah 52 and 53 to get a picture of His chastisement, suffering, and death

As many were astonished at you—
his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance,
and his form beyond that of the children of mankind— Isaiah 52:14

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth. Isaiah 53:7

And, Matthew 27:41-43

41 So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, 42 “He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, ‘I am the Son of God. Matthew 27:41-43

is a fulfillment of Psalm 22:7-8

All who see me mock me;
they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
“He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him;
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!

Second,

The "Prophecy" in Wisdom says

Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."

Once again Isaiah says

Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted. 53:4

Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;[g]
when his soul makes[h] an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. 53:10

What the New Testament and Isaiah describe is not Christ being protected by the Father. God the Father didn't come down and save Christ life at the last minute and deliver Him from his adversaries, which in this case are the wicked who insult, torture, and condemn him to death. The Father did deliver Christ from Satan (His ultimate adversary) by raising Him from the grave. But this passage is talking about "us" not Satan.

Instead we see Christ praying that "This cup to be taken from me" Luke 22:42

Then Christ is arrested, beaten and hung on a cross.

Then just before Christ dies he cries out “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Matthew 27:46

If Wisdom is saying that Christ will be protected from a shameful death by the Father, (which is what it appears to be saying) then Wisdom is wrong.

Christ did die a shameful death and, in some way that I don't pretend to understand, was forsaken by the God. crushed by the Lord, and smitten by God (not protected by the Father as Wisdom says will happen).

It was after His shameful death that He overcome death and the grave by rising again.

The context in which this passage is written if from the thoughts of the wicked, so of course they were wrong, Wisdom is agreeing with you!

Wisdom Chapter 2:
For the ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright, Our life is short and tedious, and in the death of a man there is no remedy: neither was there any man known to have returned from the grave. 2 For we are born at all adventure: and we shall be hereafter as though we had never been: for the breath in our nostrils is as smoke, and a little spark in the moving of our heart: 3 Which being extinguished, our body shall be turned into ashes, and our spirit shall vanish as the soft air, 4 And our name shall be forgotten in time, and no man shall have our works in remembrance, and our life shall pass away as the trace of a cloud, and shall be dispersed as a mist, that is driven away with the beams of the sun, and overcome with the heat thereof. 5 For our time is a very shadow that passes away; and after our end there is no returning: for it is fast sealed, so that no man comes again. 6 Come on therefore, let us enjoy the good things that are present: and let us speedily use the creatures like as in youth. 7 Let us fill ourselves with costly wine and ointments: and let no flower of the spring pass by us: 8 Let us crown ourselves with rosebuds, before they be withered: 9 Let none of us go without his part of our voluptuousness: let us leave tokens of our joyfulness in every place: for this is our portion, and our lot is this. 10 Let us oppress the poor righteous man, let us not spare the widow, nor reverence the ancient gray hairs of the aged. 11 Let our strength be the law of justice: for that which is feeble is found to be nothing worth. 12 Therefore let us lie in wait for the righteous; because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings: he upbraids us with our offending the law, and objects to our infamy the transgressings of our education. 13 He professes to have the knowledge of God: and he calls himself the child of the Lord. 14 He was made to reprove our thoughts. 15 He is grievous to us even to behold: for his life is not like other men's, his ways are of another fashion. 16 We are esteemed of him as counterfeits: he abstains from our ways as from filthiness: he pronounces the end of the just to be blessed, and makes his boast that God is his father. 17 Let us see if his words be true: and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him. 18 For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies. 19 Let us examine him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know his meekness, and prove his patience. 20 Let us condemn him with a shameful death: for by his own saying he shall be respected. 21 Such things they did imagine, and were deceived: for their own wickedness has blinded them. 22 As for the mysteries of God, they knew them not: neither hoped they for the wages of righteousness, nor discerned a reward for blameless souls.

 

[Andrew]

Here's how you begin and entitle your opening post...




That's a very specific QUESTION... and of course you know it's debatable. You set this whole thing up as a DEBATE.... around a very specific question.






Another baseless, unsubstantiated claim. Not one quote from me remotely indicating your claim is true.



.

My apologies, I suppose I did invite a debate, although you do seem bitter toward any discussion of "Apocrypha" books.
You don't have to engage in a topic that upsets you.

 

[Josiah]

My apologies, I suppose I did invite a debate, although you do seem bitter toward any discussion of "Apocrypha" books.

Thanks for that retraction and apology...

It seems you missed the rest of the post

Andy said:


your hostility of the Apocrypha, your truly are anti Apocrypha

Another baseless, unsubstantiated claim. Not one quote from me remotely indicating your claim is true.



Here is my often stated position on this.... please underline all the "anti-Apocrypha" and "hostility toward the Apocrypha" statements in it:

Josiah said:


There are a number of books beyond "the 66" that numerous Christians have cherished, used, quoted, even called "Scripture" and placed into collections with "the 66" ... books perhaps 7 to 20 or so in number.... historical and important and helpful books, sometimes called "Deuterocanonical" or "Apocrypha." But these books have largely been forgotten among a few Christians today, especially modern American "Evangelicals." All would be blessed to embrace them again, blessed if all were encouraged to read them - perhaps not as fully canonical but certainly as inspirational and helpful."

And I've added, "Luther included 8 of these in his German translation (although sharing his own personal opinion that such are not fully canonical, not equal in every sense to the rest). My own Bible, published by the Lutheran Concordia Publishing House, has these 8 in it, along with numerous notes and cross references to the OT and NT. And my own Lutheran parish did a 6 month study of them. They are included in some Lutheran lectionaries, and there is a Lutheran daily lectionary exclusively of them."

Click to expand...

As all know, that's my position. Which you have debated with me for about 2 years now.

Now, please explain to us all WHAT specific words in that position are "anti-Apocrypha" and reveal a "hostility" toward it by me.





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[Lamb]

Thread has been moved to the Christian Theology forum out of the Bible Study forum.

 

[Lanman87]

The context in which this passage is written if from the thoughts of the wicked, so of course they were wrong, Wisdom is agreeing with you!

Wisdom Chapter 2:
For the ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright, Our life is short and tedious, and in the death of a man there is no remedy: neither was there any man known to have returned from the grave. 2 For we are born at all adventure: and we shall be hereafter as though we had never been: for the breath in our nostrils is as smoke, and a little spark in the moving of our heart: 3 Which being extinguished, our body shall be turned into ashes, and our spirit shall vanish as the soft air, 4 And our name shall be forgotten in time, and no man shall have our works in remembrance, and our life shall pass away as the trace of a cloud, and shall be dispersed as a mist, that is driven away with the beams of the sun, and overcome with the heat thereof. 5 For our time is a very shadow that passes away; and after our end there is no returning: for it is fast sealed, so that no man comes again. 6 Come on therefore, let us enjoy the good things that are present: and let us speedily use the creatures like as in youth. 7 Let us fill ourselves with costly wine and ointments: and let no flower of the spring pass by us: 8 Let us crown ourselves with rosebuds, before they be withered: 9 Let none of us go without his part of our voluptuousness: let us leave tokens of our joyfulness in every place: for this is our portion, and our lot is this. 10 Let us oppress the poor righteous man, let us not spare the widow, nor reverence the ancient gray hairs of the aged. 11 Let our strength be the law of justice: for that which is feeble is found to be nothing worth. 12 Therefore let us lie in wait for the righteous; because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings: he upbraids us with our offending the law, and objects to our infamy the transgressings of our education. 13 He professes to have the knowledge of God: and he calls himself the child of the Lord. 14 He was made to reprove our thoughts. 15 He is grievous to us even to behold: for his life is not like other men's, his ways are of another fashion. 16 We are esteemed of him as counterfeits: he abstains from our ways as from filthiness: he pronounces the end of the just to be blessed, and makes his boast that God is his father. 17 Let us see if his words be true: and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him. 18 For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies. 19 Let us examine him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know his meekness, and prove his patience. 20 Let us condemn him with a shameful death: for by his own saying he shall be respected. 21 Such things they did imagine, and were deceived: for their own wickedness has blinded them. 22 As for the mysteries of God, they knew them not: neither hoped they for the wages of righteousness, nor discerned a reward for blameless souls.

That actually makes more sense.

However, it doesn't change the fact that the fact Christ would be called the Son of God, would be righteous, would Judge the Jews (and be inconvient for the wicked) and all the world, would be beaten and insulted, and would die a horrible death were already known to the writer of Wisdom.

The writer probably also knew that the "Son of God" would not stay dead.

The writer had the Old Testament text and probably knew them better than any modern scholar. If the writer was a Jewish Priest then they probably had much of the Old Testament memorized.

It also doesn't change the fact that the writer gives the wrong reason for the wicked to insult, torture, and kill the "righteous one". The reasons for the cruxifiction were different than the reasoning given here. The reasons for the cruxifiction by the Jews was to punish for Blasphemy and disrespect for the Authority of the Pharisees. His "I AM" statements got them all worked up, and telling them that they are a brood of vipers didn't help any.

 

[Andrew]

Thanks for that retraction and apology...

It seems you missed the rest of the post







Another baseless, unsubstantiated claim. Not one quote from me remotely indicating your claim is true.



Here is my often stated position on this.... please underline all the "anti-Apocrypha" and "hostility toward the Apocrypha" statements in it:





As all know, that's my position. Which you have debated with me for about 2 years now.

Now, please explain to us all WHAT specific words in that position are "anti-Apocrypha" and reveal a "hostility" toward it by me.





.

I just saw the post.

If that is your honest statement then why would I have a problem with that?
This is the first time I have ever seen this statement you say you have been making for years. I would rather all Protestants use the Complete Protestant Bible which included the Apocrypha section (as being non Canonical) so that they wouldn't have such ignorant and false conceptions of them due to the stigma that has been attached to them... I have multiple websites bookmarked that are long and lengthy with just about every Church father under the sun using a common selection of "apocrypha" books and refering to them as scripture or sacred, divine etc (interpret it as a loose expression if you wish)..

A P O C R Y P H A : Included in every Holy Bible from the 4th century AD to the 19th Century AD

You are confusing American Evangelicals with Protestants. All American Evangelicals are Protestant (not Catholic or EO) but not all Protestants are American Evangelicals. Anglicans are still very friendly with the Duetero books. So are Lutherans. @NathanH83 @Andy Yes, it seems our...

christianityhaven.com

...that sells a LOT and speaks much volume!
It applies to all Christians as the first Christians were already well versed in these common Ecclesiasticals and this was before the established RCC and all the Protestant denominations that came out of the Reformation. I believe it would bring more unity back to the churches if they were put back into the printers and pressed back to the center section of the bible, or back or whatever.. I am talking specifically about the standard walmart bibles that the common American purchase their bible from.
Would you be in favor or in disfavor of that idea?

 

[Lanman87]

Would you be in favor or in disfavor of that idea?

I wouldn't be opposed to it provided it had a modern update to the preface of the Glossia Ordinara (I've said that before in this thread).

Just as a side not I was curious so I went to Christianbook.com (which is where I start when shopping for Christian material) and put in Bible with Apocrypha in the search bar.

There were several pages of choices. Including the Catholic GNT published by The American Bible Society.

And one from Zondervan


I don't think there should be some kind of law that all Bibles must contain these books. It is up to Wal-Mart and Target if they want to carry copies with books or not. My guess is that if you go to an area than is 80% Catholic then you kind find Bibles with the Duetero Books at Wal-Mart or Target. They aren't interested in religious debate, they are interesting in selling inventory.

Most people don't purchase a Bible from Wal-Mart. They get them from an online store, through their church, or a local Book Store.

 

[Andrew]

I wouldn't be opposed to it provided it had a modern update to the preface of the Glossia Ordinara (I've said that before in this thread).

Just as a side not I was curious so I went to Christianbook.com (which is where I start when shopping for Christian material) and put in Bible with Apocrypha in the search bar.

There were several pages of choices. Including the Catholic GNT published by The American Bible Society.

And one from Zondervan


I don't think there should be some kind of law that all Bibles must contain these books. It is up to Wal-Mart and Target if they want to carry copies with books or not. My guess is that if you go to an area than is 80% Catholic then you kind find Bibles with the Duetero Books at Wal-Mart or Target. They aren't interested in religious debate, they are interesting in selling inventory.

Most people don't purchase a Bible from Wal-Mart. They get them from an online store, through their church, or a local Book Store.

The ABS has been printing Catholic Bibles for a while now, at first they were for only Bishops and Priests to purchase and they charged them a lot of money, but now they are at a reasonable rate. Still though, an average Protestant wouldn't buy a Catholic Bible. As for where I live, there is a majority of lower class towns people who dont have the means for online purchases and do their shopping at walmart, the majority folks in my town are african american, and they are church goers.

 

[Josiah]

If that is your honest statement then why would I have a problem with that?

@Andy



You've been debating with me for some two years on this...

My position is FAR, FAR from yours. Nothing in mine about any Jewish or Christian or Protestant conspiracies.... nothing about the Early Church doing something.... nothing about "IN" or "RIPPED OUT".... nothing about any book calling any book "Scripture".... nothing about books being forbidden and unavailable.... nothing about "equal".... nothing about "Protestantism" this or that. The claims I made are all easily shown to be true (as I've done), no lies, no falsehoods, no remarkable claims never substantiated, no accusations/condemnations. No wild, sweeping, baseless generalizations or incredible hyperbole.

THAT'S been the issue. The only thing I'm "anti" about is falsehood. Some here think truth matters. When a big remarkable claim and huge sweeping condemnation is made, some here think that should be substantiated, it should not be stated (over and over, quite foundationally) if it's not true. And some seem to think that if the claim is repeated enough, if more unsubstantiated claims are piled on top of it, it suddently becomes unaccountable, exempt from truth. That's been the contention between us.

Would you be in favor or in disfavor of that idea?

I've stated my position. Many times. It's never changed.


You can buy any type of Bible you want. Everyone can. I'm fine with that. You purchased one that has some of "them" in it and I'm good with that. As you know, so did I. The Bible is not copywritten, there is no grand international law about what must and must not be between the covers of a tome with the word "BIBLE" on the cover. Never has been.

I've said - MANY times - I think people should read and study at least 8 of them. You responded by accusing me of being THE prime example of one discourages this..... I noted that Luther had 8 of "them" in his translation, and my tome (from a Lutheran publishing house) still does. You responded by claiming Lutherans "ESPECIALLY' discourage the reading of them. I realize that (after many months) you retracted both of these claims (perhaps realizing you were WRONG) but that is how you responded. And it's been a pattern.

Just today, TWO MORE false claims about me were made by you. Just a couple of hours ago. NO substantiation whatsoever, and yup it FLIES IN THE FACE of what I've so often said. And neither does a THING to substantiate ANY of your claims. THAT'S what I've been commenting about. I think truth matters. I think truth does a better job of uniting us than endless repetitions of false or baseless or unsubstantiated claims and personal attacks that just fly in the face of what actually has been said, claims never substantiated but just piled higher and deeper... with ever more additions.


You claim to be interested in "unity." Ask yourself.... for the years you and Nathan have been on this, did you bring about unity here at CH?




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[NathanH83]

I’m glad I listened to David Bercot’s teaching on the Septuagint and Apocrypha. I’m convinced it belongs.

 

[Andrew]

You've been debating with me for some two years....

My position is FAR, FAR from yours. Nothing in mine about any Jewish or Christian conspiracies.... nothing about the Early Church doing something.... nothing about "IN" or "RIPPED OUT".... nothing about any book calling any book "Scripture".... nothing about books being forbidden and unavailable.... nothing about "equal"....

And that's been your enormous problem with me: all the personal accusations, etc., etc., etc. I haven't posted, 'Yup, Andy, you've done an excellent job of substantiating all your remarkable claims." No. I've cared about truth. You've just piled on more and more and more claims without any substantiation.

THAT'S been the issue. I'm not "anti" anything... I'm not "dishonest".... it's just some here think truth matters. When a big remarkable claim and huge sweeping condemnation is made, some here think that should be substantiated. And some seem to think that if the claim is repeated enough, if more unsubstantiated claims are piled on top of it, it suddently becomes unaccountable, exempt from truth. That's been the contention between us.





I've stated my position. Many times.


You can buy any type of Bible you want. Everyone can. I'm fine with that. You purchased one that has some of "them" in it and I'm good with that. The Bible is not copywritten, there is no grand international law about what must and must not be between the covers of a tome with the word "BIBLE" on the cover. Never has been.

I've said - MANY times - I think people should read and study at least 8 of them. You responded by accusing me of being THE prime example of one discourages this..... I noted that Luther had 8 of "them" in his translation, and my tome (from a Lutheran publishing house) still does. You responded by claiming Lutherans "ESPECIALLY' discourage the reading of them. I realize that (after many months) you retracted both of these claims (perhaps realizing you were WRONG) but that is how you responded.

Just today, TWO MORE false claims about me were made by you. Just a couple of hours ago. NO substantiation whatsoever, and yup it FLIES IN THE FACE of what I've so often said. And neither does a THING to substantiate ANY of your claims. THAT'S what I've been commenting about. I think truth matters. I think truth does a better job of uniting us than endless repetitions of false or baseless or unsubstantiated claims and personal attacks that just fly in the face of reality, what actually has been said.




.

All standard issued bibles that are massed produced are incomplete, the average Christian hasn't a clue of what the "Apocrypha" is and it's history and why so many churches read from them in Bibles that contained them, they ARE of value, of GREAT value for all Christians.
That's where me and you seem to disagree, you say that you can go out and buy one, yeah, if you know about it, if you dont, you wont buy one. It should not be out of curiosity to seek Apocrypha Bibles because as I have pointed out before, you may end up with TRUE Gnostic Apocrypha books.. according to Rufinus who was besties with Jerome, he made it clear that there are two distinct classes of books that the fathers handed down to the churches, a third class is also mentioned by Rufinus so that the Christian will know from which springs of life giving waters from the mouth of God they should drink of... (paraphrasing)

1. Canonical-Establishes doctrine (he lists them, used in churches and for missionary witnessing)

2. Ecclesiasticals- For Church use only (not for witnessing or for establishing doctrine) used mostly by new Christian converts, demonstrates the use of doctrine and lessons on Holy living (he lists so-called-"Apocrypha"/Deuterocanon books)

3. Apocrypha-NOT accepted by the churches and are forbidden (he will not list for they are endless, anything outside of the first two classes are Apocrypha)

 

[Andrew]

I’m glad I listened to David Bercot’s teaching on the Septuagint and Apocrypha. I’m convinced it belongs.

Im glad I discovered him through your channel! Thanks

 

[Lamb]

the average Christian hasn't a clue of what the "Apocrypha" is

Do you have data for that?

 

[Josiah]

All standard issued bibles that are massed produced are incomplete

Another claim. No substantiation.

The average Christian hasn't a clue of what the "Apocrypha" is

Another claim. No substantiation.

Your claim probably does have SOME truth in it for modern, American "Evangelicals" but they are a tiny minority of Protestants who in turn are a minority of Christians. And even there, among that very, very tiny minority of Christians, you haven't shown this is because of some grand conspiracy by Protestantism, not because the American Bible Society is the ruling authority for "BIBLE" for Christianity, not because Lutherans have told Christianity not to put them in Bibles or to read them. FOR YOU, it may be because an Evangelical pastor hasn't informed you of them. Okay, could be. THAT could be the reason of your whole rant here. Take that up with your pastor. Don't blame ME or "Especially Lutheranism" or something one Bible soceity did in the USA 200 years ago. It may be that the typical American "Evangelical" is ignorant of a lot of things, that's not the fault of me or Lutherans or Protestantism or the ABS or some international law. It may be your pastor. Or perhaps you not listening or attending the studies he provides --- maybe. Thought about that?




.

 

[Josiah]

Do you have data for that?

Several of us have been asking that very same question..... for two years now.... upon claim after claim after claim after claim, accusation after accusation.



.

 

[Andrew]

Do you have data for that?

Seriously? Is it not obvious? Mention Tobit to your average baptist and see if they know what it is

 

[Andrew]

Several of us have been asking that very same question..... for two years now.... upon claim after claim after claim after claim, accusation after accusation.



.

Well, here in the west we have a lot of Christians don't we? The Catholics in the south go to Church and may own a bible but they really don't read them because when I start bringing up God and Scripture they get excited when I tell them some of the stories. My dad grew up Catholic and everything he says I have to correct him on it.
My cowarkers from past jobs who are Christians came to me for questions about the Bible.
The old testament is a TOUGH read for beginners, probably why new Converts who heard the good news were advised to read the Ecclesiasticals!

But no I don't have DATA but rarely do believers read their Bibles and don't understand the OT and especially have never read the Apocrypha except for ONE friend of mine, and I know and have met a lot of people. Maybe its different for LUTHERANS, but where I live I have bever met a Lutheran.

The only ones who I know reads the bible daily is my uncle and he comes to me for questions.

SO I AM SO SORRY YOU NEED PROOF OF EVERYTHING I EVER SAY WHEN MOST OF IT EXPERIENCE OR IN A 10 VOLUME BOOK THAT I DONT HAVE HANDY AT ALL TIMES

 

[Lamb]

Seriously? Is it not obvious? Mention Tobit to your average baptist and see if they know what it is

Mention "Tobit" or the "Apocrypha" in general?

If you mention the Apocrypha, I know tons of Baptists who are aware of what that means to them.

It seems you want them to be better versed in specific books then? Not just the Apocrypha as a general topic?