Comparing Romans 2:13 and Romans 3:20

[Lanman87]

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

I've been taught that the reason for 3:20 is that 2:13 is impossible. That for a Jew, who was under the law as well as Gentiles who were under the "natural law" the only way to be declared righteous is to perfectly sinless by keeping the law (Mosaic or Natural). And because we are "all sinners and fallen short of the Glory of God) Romans 3:23 none of us will be declared righteous according to the standard of 2:13. In other words, Romans 2:13 isn't telling us to keep the law in order to be declared righteous, instead it is showing us the hopelessness of being "under the law".

What is your understanding of the apparent "contradiction" in these two verses?


The reason I ask is that I often hear apologist/preachers us 2:13 to out right say or at least infer that our righteousness comes, at least in part, from what we do (keeping the Mosaic, Natural, or even newer religious laws) instead of or in addition to or faith in Christ.

 

[Lees]

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

I've been taught that the reason for 3:20 is that 2:13 is impossible. That for a Jew, who was under the law as well as Gentiles who were under the "natural law" the only way to be declared righteous is to perfectly sinless by keeping the law (Mosaic or Natural). And because we are "all sinners and fallen short of the Glory of God) Romans 3:23 none of us will be declared righteous according to the standard of 2:13. In other words, Romans 2:13 isn't telling us to keep the law in order to be declared righteous, instead it is showing us the hopelessness of being "under the law".

What is your understanding of the apparent "contradiction" in these two verses?


The reason I ask is that I often hear apologist/preachers us 2:13 to out right say or at least infer that our righteousness comes, at least in part, from what we do (keeping the Mosaic, Natural, or even newer religious laws) instead of or in addition to or faith in Christ.

Yes, you were taught right. But, (Rom. 2:13) is saying the 'doers of the law' shall be justified. Problem is: no one can keep the law.

Conclusion: don't act and pretend that you're accepted by God due to your supposed ability to follow the 10 commandments.

No contradiction here.

Lees

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
• Luke 1:5-6 . .There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest
named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of
Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God,
walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
_

 

[Lees]

.
• Luke 1:5-6 . .There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest
named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of
Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God,
walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
_

Do you have a point to make?

Why is it that people love to quote stuff and never make a point about what it is supposed to prove.

It's Scripture. Ok. So what?

Lees

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
• Gen 26:5 . . Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments,
my statutes, and my laws.
_

 

[Lanman87]

Do you have a point to make?

I'm going to make an assumption that he is trying to show that Zacharias was made righteous by keeping the law.

However, there is comma between the first part of the verse And they were both righteous before God and the second part, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

I've read about 5 translations of this verse and non of them replace the comma with because.

Some people read that verse like this:

And they were both righteous before God because they were walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

But that is not what the verse says.

Others see the righteousness as the reason they are walking in the commandments and ordinances.

In other words, they are obedient because they are righteous, they are not obedient in order to be righteous.

The verse just shows their status (righteous) and what they are doing (obedience). It doesn't indicated what caused the righteousness.

If we believe Roman 3:20 and following we understand that their righteousness come by faith not by keeping the law.

 

[Lees]

.
• Gen 26:5 . . Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments,
my statutes, and my laws.
_

See post #(4).

Lees

 

[Lees]

I'm going to make an assumption that he is trying to show that Zacharias was made righteous by keeping the law.

However, there is comma between the first part of the verse And they were both righteous before God and the second part, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

I've read about 5 translations of this verse and non of them replace the comma with because.

Some people read that verse like this:

And they were both righteous before God because they were walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

But that is not what the verse says.

Others see the righteousness as the reason they are walking in the commandments and ordinances.

In other words, they are obedient because they are righteous, they are not obedient in order to be righteous.

The verse just shows their status (righteous) and what they are doing (obedience). It doesn't indicated what caused the righteousness.

If we believe Roman 3:20 and following we understand that their righteousness come by faith not by keeping the law.

Since 'he' doesn't say, we both must make assumptions. Which was my point. He and others use that technique to hide behind. They don't know the Scriptures well enough to use, so they must just quote some Scripture they have been told of, and see what you say. And then try and comment on that.

They possibly are arguing this on another forum and want to hear your or my response to help them. Internet knwoledge. Not one's own knowledge. Yet they will return to their argument on another forum and present it as theirs.

I believe you are correct in your observation of what he is trying to say.

And I certainly believe your conclusion. Not his.

Perhaps he will eventually tell us what exactly he is trying to say, so we no longer have to assume. But I doubt it.

Lees

 

[marhig]

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

I've been taught that the reason for 3:20 is that 2:13 is impossible. That for a Jew, who was under the law as well as Gentiles who were under the "natural law" the only way to be declared righteous is to perfectly sinless by keeping the law (Mosaic or Natural). And because we are "all sinners and fallen short of the Glory of God) Romans 3:23 none of us will be declared righteous according to the standard of 2:13. In other words, Romans 2:13 isn't telling us to keep the law in order to be declared righteous, instead it is showing us the hopelessness of being "under the law".

What is your understanding of the apparent "contradiction" in these two verses?


The reason I ask is that I often hear apologist/preachers us 2:13 to out right say or at least infer that our righteousness comes, at least in part, from what we do (keeping the Mosaic, Natural, or even newer religious laws) instead of or in addition to or faith in Christ.

The law shows us our sin, we can't be made righteous by being shown our sins, we are made righteous once we become doers of the word and obey God, and once we start to obey God, then God will strengthen us and help us to overcome through Christ by the power of the Spirit.

And the law is fulfilled in love, if we have faith and truly love God with all our hearts, then we will obey the word of God and do what's right before him, and care for those we see in need.

Love fulfills the law, because once we obey the word of God, we won't break the commandments of God, we will live by them, that is if we truly love him and walk in the Spirit. And in doing so we will truly follow Jesus, caring and loving one another and Jesus did and we will live by the will of God in our daily lives, obeying his word and bringing his love to others as we bare witness to the truth.

You'll know them by their fruits and Jesus is our example to follow.

Love fulfills the law

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[NathanH83]

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

I've been taught that the reason for 3:20 is that 2:13 is impossible. That for a Jew, who was under the law as well as Gentiles who were under the "natural law" the only way to be declared righteous is to perfectly sinless by keeping the law (Mosaic or Natural). And because we are "all sinners and fallen short of the Glory of God) Romans 3:23 none of us will be declared righteous according to the standard of 2:13. In other words, Romans 2:13 isn't telling us to keep the law in order to be declared righteous, instead it is showing us the hopelessness of being "under the law".

What is your understanding of the apparent "contradiction" in these two verses?


The reason I ask is that I often hear apologist/preachers us 2:13 to out right say or at least infer that our righteousness comes, at least in part, from what we do (keeping the Mosaic, Natural, or even newer religious laws) instead of or in addition to or faith in Christ.

When he says to obey the law, he’s talking about the moral law, like don’t steal, kill, or commit adultery.

But when he says we’re not declared righteous by the works of the law, he’s taking about the works of circumcision, dietary laws, observing New Moons and special sabbaths, etc. things Gentile believers are not required to keep.

 

[Lanman87]

But when he says we’re not declared righteous by the works of the law,

Is keeping the 10 Commandments a "work of the law"? I would say it is. The Jewish law is both a bunch of "thou shall not" (steal, kill, adultery, don't eat unclean foods...) and thou shalts (remember the passover, circumcise boys, take care of your family....)

To be declared righteous by obeying the law someone would have to be a perfect person.

The Gentiles, while not having the written law still understood morality or the "natural law" and the Jews had the written law of Moses.

My understanding is that verse 20 means that neither Jew nor Greek will be saved by the "works of the law" either natural law or Mosaic Law.

Paul points this out in verse 3:9 and following:

9 What then? Are we Jews[a] any better off?[b] No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

It is after he points out that both Jews and Greeks are under sin that he says in 3:20

20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

I take this to mean that Gentiles will not be declared righteous by being moral and following the moral law (being a good person) and Jews will not be declared righteous by strictly following the Mosaic Law (which includes the moral law but adds additional requirements).

Verse 21 and following has the solution for both Jew and Gentiles. It tells both how to be declared righteous.

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Both Jew and Gentile receive the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Not by being a good person, not by the religious rituals of the Mosaic Law, Our righteousness is not something we earn through our own striving and actions. It is a gift that we receive through faith.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
It's not uncommon to encounter Christians claiming that it is impossible to keep the
law of Moses. Well; that's just not true because Moses himself said it's possible
(Deut 30:11) plus: Josiah was able to keep it (2Kgs 23:25) Zacharias and his wife
were able to keep it (Luke 1:5-6) Paul the apostle was able to keep it (Phil 3:6) and
Jesus of Nazareth was able to keep it. (John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1Pet 2:22)

* I didn't list Abraham (Gen 26:5) because Moses' law wasn't yet codified as a
covenant back in his day. (Deut 5:2-3)
_

 

[Lanman87]

.
It's not uncommon to encounter Christians claiming that it is impossible to keep the
law of Moses. Well; that's just not true because Moses himself said it's possible
(Deut 30:11) plus: Josiah was able to keep it (2Kgs 23:25) Zacharias and his wife
were able to keep it (Luke 1:5-6) Paul the apostle was able to keep it (Phil 3:6) and
Jesus of Nazareth was able to keep it. (John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1Pet 2:22)

* I didn't list Abraham (Gen 26:5) because Moses' law wasn't yet codified as a
covenant back in his day. (Deut 5:2-3)
_

Then how do you explain Romans 3:20

 

[SetFree]

I see this struggle some believers have all the time, especially among Jewish converts to Christ Jesus.

God's law is good, Apostle Paul said, if... used fairly ("lawfully" - 1 Timothy 1).

Paul also taught in 1 Corinthians 6 those who sin and do those things in the law he mentions there shall not enter the Kingdom of God.

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
KJV

One who is washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of Jesus Christ will have the unction of The Holy Spirit to not do those things Paul mentions. That is, IF... one listens to and heeds The Holy Spirit. If not, then it means the believer placing themselves back under the law.

And personally, I don't know anyone... that can always be perfect in not breaking any of God's laws. I include myself of course.

I happen to love shellfish, especially crab legs. But eating shellfish is against God's health laws, it's not a healthy food, shellfish are scavengers which God designed to cleanse the ocean floor. They are super high in cholesterol (more than beef even). Same thing with catfish, a scavenger fish, and pork. Does that mean I'm going to hell for eating shellfish? No.

But my flesh may not remain healthy if I eat it often.

So we have liberty in Christ Jesus, not to sin, yet none of us can literally be perfect as our own Christ, and those sins Paul pointed out, those are more serious (7 of them can demand jail time). We definitely need to repent to Lord Jesus with those, and that means make a change and get back to serving Him.