Common Figure of Speech?

[Stravinsk]

From the OP - "I wonder if anyone who falls in that group of believers could provide examples to support that belief [of commonality ; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred?" That is the one and only issue of this topic.

I'll think one would be hard pressed to find prominent examples. Most Christians accept the rather shaky apologetics here because it's the easiest way to continue with their traditions and not rock any boats (no pun intended ).

 

[Lees]

I am fully aware that the Jewish period that constitutes a full day/night period starts with evening, or Sunset. However, this is irrelevant because we are counting the total number of day and night periods.

Your attempt to reconcile the 3 day 3 night count by placing the count at the start of Christ's arrest fails. It matters for a very important reason. Either:

1) Messiah's most important sign is not a sign at all because it doesn't meet the most basic of requirements in terms of time. Obviously this has several grave implications.

or

2) Messiah's most important sign says something much more important about our Calendar system. If the sign is true, simply true, without obfuscation, then something else, namely our Calendar system, is false. As I am aware that Mia ton Sabbaton is not a true rendering for "first day of the week", then I take this latter position.

By the way, ever wonder why water recedes and plants arise on the 3rd day of Genesis...the one that falls after 3 days and 3 nights?

Well, it is important. And it can be confusing. If Jesus was betrayed at night, you still have the day to follow which is part of that day. Correct. In other words, where is your Thursday day located.

I am not trying to reconcile anything. I am saying the 3 days and nights Jesus spoke of in (Matt. 12:40) involve His betrayal the night he was arrested. I believe Him. It's you and others that want to 'reconcile' Jesus statement in (Matt. 12:40) with the recorded events of His death and Resurrection. Or should I say, use it to cast doubt upon the Christians faith.

Jesus's sign of being in the heart of the earth for 3 days and nights is true. As to different methods of telling time changing over time, what does that matter?

No, I never wondered about it. Why?

Lees

 

[Lees]

From the OP - "I wonder if anyone who falls in that group of believers could provide examples to support that belief [of commonality ; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred?" That is the one and only issue of this topic.

That question cannot be addressed to believers, because no believer believes that. As I have already said.

Lees

 

[rstrats]

I'll think one would be hard pressed to find prominent examples. Most Christians accept the rather shaky apologetics here because it's the easiest way to continue with their traditions and not rock any boats (no pun intended ).

So far that certainly seems to be the case. However, you never know - there may be somebody looking in in the future who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring exclusively to the tomb and who tries to account for the lack of a third night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial usage of the period and who has examples to support their assertion.

 

[rstrats]

That question cannot be addressed to believers, because no believer believes that. As I have already said.

Lees

I don't know how you can say that there is no believer who thinks that the "heart of the earth" refers exclusively to the tomb. How can you possibly know that?

 

[Lees]

I don't know how you can say that there is no believer who thinks that the "heart of the earth" refers exclusively to the tomb. How can you possibly know that?

As I have said, there is no believer who believes a night or a day is not counted for. That is what 'you' believe. Not us.

So, ask your question to non-believers if you like. But this question of yours to believers is illegitimate.

This is just your question and answer guaranteed by you.

Lees

 

[Lees]

I'll think one would be hard pressed to find prominent examples. Most Christians accept the rather shaky apologetics here because it's the easiest way to continue with their traditions and not rock any boats (no pun intended ).

Shakey aplogetics? Spoken by one who claims to be a Deist yet believes in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

There's some 'shakey' beliefism. Oxymoronic.

Lees

 

[Lees]

So far that certainly seems to be the case. However, you never know - there may be somebody looking in in the future who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring exclusively to the tomb and who tries to account for the lack of a third night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial usage of the period and who has examples to support their assertion.

How about answering my question to you in post #(166). You say you see no reason to not believe what (Matt. 12:40) says. So explain how Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth?

Perhaps there is someone else new to the forum who believes as you do, and can answer for you.

Lees

 

[rstrats]

As I have said, there is no believer who believes a night or a day is not counted for.

So how does someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" refers exclusively to the tomb account for there being only 2 night times involved between the 6th day of the week burial and the 1st day of the week resurrection?

 

[rstrats]

How about answering my question to you in post #(166). You say you see no reason to not believe what (Matt. 12:40) says. So explain how Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth?

I answered that in post #165: "The burial would have to have taken place no later than the 5th day of the week."

 

[Stravinsk]

I answered that in post #165: "The burial would have to have taken place no later than the 5th day of the week."

That would be a problem because numerous passages indicate a Preparation Day burial, or the day before the Sabbath.

Under the assumption that:

Day 1 through Day 7 of Creation began a never ending cycle of 7's, or weeks (which is what most Christians, Jews and Muslims believe)

Then a 6th, or Preparation Day, Burial would have Christ arising on the Day we call "Tuesday", which happens to be the 3rd day of the week.


Tuesday is the 3rd day of the week, which falls after 3 days and 3 nights from a Friday burial.

Saturday night - 1 night - beginning of Sabbath
Saturday day - 1 night, 1 day - Sabbath day
Sunday night - 2 nights, 1 day - start of the first night/day period of the week
Sunday day - 2 nights, 2 days
Monday night - 3 nights, 2 days - start of the second night/day period of the week
Monday day - 3 nights, 3 days
Tuesday night "while it was still dark" - the start of the 3rd night/day period of the week.


Right here is where all the time frames fit together. For Christ not only said that He would rise "after 3 days and 3 nights" but also that He would rise "the 3rd day".


So is Tuesday the day of Resurrection? Yes and no. Curiously enough, days of the week, excepting Sabbath, are not named in the bible. There is only a reference to their numerical place. In order to find any day without the use of humans, or human devices, one would need to look to the heavens.

So we should not be under the assumption of ever cycling 7 day weeks from Creation. For if a man is lost in time, he cannot find out what day it is without consulting another man, or some man made device. This would have been a big problem for any person, especially in former times, who happened to find themselves without another person to consult if they didn't know what day it was.

God created the moon for this purpose. It says so right in Genesis. It marks the "appointed times" of which the Sabbath certainly is.

 

[Lees]

So how does someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" refers exclusively to the tomb account for there being only 2 night times involved between the 6th day of the week burial and the 1st day of the week resurrection?

Whether the believer understands the exact time frame is immaterial. The believer believes and knows that what Jesus said in (Matt. 12:40) is true. As Jonah, so Christ, 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth.

Even if they/we can't make the time work out is immaterial. They/we know Jesus rose on the third day, the first day of the week. They/we know He was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth.

In other words, again, your argument is illegitimate. No believer believes the days and nights are not accounted for. You can't account for them. But then...big deal. You don't believe any of it anyway.

Lees

 

[Lees]

I answered that in post #165: "The burial would have to have taken place no later than the 5th day of the week."

Are you saying you can account for Jesus being buried no later than the 5th day of the week?

Lees

 

[rstrats]

Are you saying you can account for Jesus being buried no later than the 5th day of the week?

Lees

That has to be the case if the Messiah meant that He would be 3 nights in the tomb.

 

[Lees]

That has to be the case if the Messiah meant that He would be 3 nights in the tomb.

Assumptions on your part. 'that has to be...if'...'in the tomb'.

In other words, you can't account for anything. 'that has to be the case' is pure assumption.

You want the Christian to 'account' for you. Yet you can't account for anything.

The Christian can account for the 3 days and nights in the heart of the eartth. He just reads (Matt. 12:40). As with Jonah, so with Christ. You can't account for it becausae you don't believe the Scripture. Imagine that.

Lees

 

[rstrats]

You want the Christian to 'account' for you. Yet you can't account for anything.

That's true. That's why I started this topic. If someone believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and thinks that the "heart of the earth" refers to the tomb and tries to account for the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period, I would simply like to see the examples they are using to make the assertion of commonality because I'm not aware of any.

 

[Lees]

That's true. That's why I started this topic. If someone believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and thinks that the "heart of the earth" refers to the tomb and tries to account for the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period, I would simply like to see the examples they are using to make the assertion of commonality because I'm not aware of any.

Well, give me an example of a believer who believes and explains just as you say. In other words, don't just repeat your riddle or question. Give me a quote from a Christian book or link that states exactly what you are saying. It has been my experience that a Christian author would give an example of that if he stated that.

As I have said, Christians account for the 3 days and nights because Jesus said He would be in the heart of the earth 3 days and nights. (Matt. 12:40)

Jesus was clear. And He was clear that He would rise the 3rd day. And Scriptures state that was the first day of the week.

That explains it all.

Now, if I can't come up with answer to your question, makes no difference. It is true, and I believe it.

But with you, If someone did come up with an answer and example, you still wouldn't believe it.

You don't want to account for it. You simply want to project your atheism.

Lees

 

[rstrats]

Lees,
re: "Well, give me an example of a believer who believes and explains just as you say."

So far there have been none who have visited this topic, but you never know, there could be someone looking in in the future.



re: "As I have said, Christians account for the 3 days and [3]nights because Jesus said He would be in the heart of the earth 3 days and [3] nights. (Matt. 12:40)

Account how?



re: "Jesus was clear. And He was clear that He would rise the 3rd day. And Scriptures state that was the first day of the week."

Actually, only one scripture (Mark 16:9 as it is translated in the KJV and similar versions) places the resurrection on the first day of the week. And even that verse is in question with regard to its authenticity.



re: "Now, if I can't come up with answer to your question, makes no difference. It is true, and I believe it."

So then you're saying it is true that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech or colloquial language of the period - its just that you can't come up with examples to support it.



re: "But with you, If someone did come up with...example, you still wouldn't believe [them].

I would if they were actually legitimate examples.



re: "You don't want to account for it."

I most certainly do. What have I written that makes you think otherwise?



re: " You simply want to project your atheism."

Please explain how this topic projects atheism.

Ignore the strike through, I don't know how it got there.

 

[Joshua1Eight]

partly depends on which year was the crucifixion. if it was 31 AD when the Chinese noticed the Sun blotted out, then the crucifixion was Wednesday

 

[rstrats]

[ICODE][/ICODE]

partly depends on which year was the crucifixion. if it was 31 AD when the Chinese noticed the Sun blotted out, then the crucifixion was Wednesday

That is an issue for a different topic.