TOBIT -by NathanH83

MoreCoffee

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66/73 makes us “more alike than different”
It would be 64 out of 73 because Protestant bibles significantly differ from Catholic and Orthodox bibles in both Esther and Daniel.

And using a little bit of mathematics one can argue that 71 out of 76 is a closer match than 64 out of 73.

The ratio would be different for the Ethiopian Orthodox.
 
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Josiah

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No. Yet neither of those groups of churches is formally part of the Catholic Church.


Most of the congregations within the Roman Empire were - for about 100 years - part of the same Roman Church, this includes all the Eastern Orthodox Churches that just happened to be within the Empire as well as Western churches now regarded as RCC.

But to the point: NONE of then then or now have the identical same Bible, the identical same embrace of what should and should not be regarded as Scripture. Psalm 151, 152, 153.... 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, and MANY other works - OT and NT - were embraced in some say by some and not by others. To this day, the tomes with "BIBLE" on the cover are NOT the same in Coptic Orthodox Churches, Syrian Orthodox Churches, Greek Orthodox Churches, Roman Catholic Churches (pre-Trent), Roman Catholic Churches (post-Trent).

YES, your one, singular, individual, denomination declared what IT ITSELF alone regarded as something... it did so officially in the 16th Century... not one other denomination agreed with it itself on this. A few other denominations did the same (the Reformed movement, the Church of England, the Church of Latter-Day Saints) but none of those agree with any but itself on this. Your church EVENTUALLY agreed with itself alone on this...the same can be said of the Church of England and the LDS and some others. I guess that's good. But that's NOT Christianity.

But yes, churches that can trace their history back to the Roman Empire all had a Bible - they STILL do - and none of them are the same.



.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Tobit is an inspired and holy part of the scriptures for Catholics.
 

NathanH83

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Are you claiming that the EOC and OOC are not part of the Catholic Church, with Apostolic Succession and traditions as old as those of Rome? You were one church for the first millennium!

My only point is that they are all Catholic, they all include Apocryphal books in their ‘Bibles’ and they each have a slightly different list of Apocryphal books.

All of us (RCC, EOC, OOC, and all Protestants/Baptists) agree on 66 books that appear in ALL OUR BIBLES!
(66/73 makes us “more alike than different”). :)

You haven’t explained yet how the 17-year reign of Sargon fits into the 10-year window in-between Shalmaneser and Sennacherib.

Can’t you just at least acknowledge that Wikipedia got it wrong, and that you were wrong to trust them?
 

atpollard

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You haven’t explained yet how the 17-year reign of Sargon fits into the 10-year window in-between Shalmaneser and Sennacherib.

Can’t you just at least acknowledge that Wikipedia got it wrong, and that you were wrong to trust them?
It is not my place.
I could explain the HISTORY of Sargon II and the extra-biblical archeological evidence, but that would contribute nothing to the folly of this argument about TOBIT or the inaccuracy of Sennacherib being the son of Shalmaneser.
I am under no obligation to chase after every strawman argument that you choose to erect. I was asked my opinion, I stated my opinion and I quoted an easy to find source to confirm a minor detail of my opinion.

Feel free to reject the Protestant Reformation, Jerome, Archaeology and Wikipedia if it pleases you to do so.
Feel free to embrace Maccabees and Tobit and the Gospel of Thomas if it pleases you to do so.
I am not the keeper of your GNOSTIC wisdom … I am just somebody that offered an opinion when asked.
 

atpollard

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It would be 64 out of 73 because Protestant bibles significantly differ from Catholic and Orthodox bibles in both Esther and Daniel.

And using a little bit of mathematics one can argue that 71 out of 76 is a closer match than 64 out of 73.

The ratio would be different for the Ethiopian Orthodox.
You convinced me … you (the RCC) are all heretics. ;)

(I tried ”nice” but you seemed determined to fight, so I am obliging you.)
 

Andrew

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It is not my place.
I could explain the HISTORY of Sargon II and the extra-biblical archeological evidence, but that would contribute nothing to the folly of this argument about TOBIT or the inaccuracy of Sennacherib being the son of Shalmaneser.
I am under no obligation to chase after every strawman argument that you choose to erect. I was asked my opinion, I stated my opinion and I quoted an easy to find source to confirm a minor detail of my opinion.

Feel free to reject the Protestant Reformation, Jerome, Archaeology and Wikipedia if it pleases you to do so.
Feel free to embrace Maccabees and Tobit and the Gospel of Thomas if it pleases you to do so.
I am not the keeper of your GNOSTIC wisdom … I am just somebody that offered an opinion when asked.

Aren't you actually rejecting the Protestant Reformation by denouncing Luthers Bible?
Is Nathan rejecting Jerome or his unbelieving ministers who tossed a wrench into Christianity? the many splits can be traced back to the post-Christian canon formed by a Rabbanic sect of Pharisees, had Jerome not have trusted in the council of Apostate Judaism, the reformation may have actually reformed the Catholic Church instead of creating a new one.

The Gospel of Thomas is a great example of ACTUAL Apocrypha.

But don't take my word for it cause you won't anyway and you likely won't study as you refuse to answer a simple math question.
 

MoreCoffee

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You convinced me … you (the RCC) are all heretics. ;)

(I tried ”nice” but you seemed determined to fight, so I am obliging you.)
I am always nice ;-)
 

NathanH83

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It is not my place.
I could explain the HISTORY of Sargon II and the extra-biblical archeological evidence, but that would contribute nothing to the folly of this argument about TOBIT or the inaccuracy of Sennacherib being the son of Shalmaneser.
I am under no obligation to chase after every strawman argument that you choose to erect. I was asked my opinion, I stated my opinion and I quoted an easy to find source to confirm a minor detail of my opinion.

Feel free to reject the Protestant Reformation, Jerome, Archaeology and Wikipedia if it pleases you to do so.
Feel free to embrace Maccabees and Tobit and the Gospel of Thomas if it pleases you to do so.
I am not the keeper of your GNOSTIC wisdom … I am just somebody that offered an opinion when asked.

The gospel of Thomas was not accepted by the councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage. Don’t confuse it with books that were. You’re changing the subject.
 

NathanH83

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It is not my place.
I could explain the HISTORY of Sargon II and the extra-biblical archeological evidence, but that would contribute nothing to the folly of this argument about TOBIT or the inaccuracy of Sennacherib being the son of Shalmaneser.
I am under no obligation to chase after every strawman argument that you choose to erect. I was asked my opinion, I stated my opinion and I quoted an easy to find source to confirm a minor detail of my opinion.

Feel free to reject the Protestant Reformation, Jerome, Archaeology and Wikipedia if it pleases you to do so.
Feel free to embrace Maccabees and Tobit and the Gospel of Thomas if it pleases you to do so.
I am not the keeper of your GNOSTIC wisdom … I am just somebody that offered an opinion when asked.

You haven’t shown any proof that contradicts the claim of Tobit that Sennacherib is the son of Shalmaneser. All you’ve shown is an inaccurate article from Wikipedia which contradicts scripture and is therefore clearly in error.

2 Kings 18 talks about Shalmaneser, and then talks about Sennacherib afterwards. No mention of Sargon coming in-between. Not even enough time for Sargon’s 17-year reign to come in between them. In fact, 2 Chronicles 28,30, and 32 indicate that Assyria had plural kings ruling simultaneously, when it says “kings of Assyria”. Since Sargon had a different capitol city than Shalmaneser and Sennacherib, then Sargon might have been ruling simultaneously the same time as them from a different capitol.

Interesting that Sennacherib wanted to follow in his father’s footsteps. Shalmaneser defeats the northern kingdom of Israel, then Sennacherib his son attempts to conquer the southern kingdom of Judah. Like father like son. Except Sennacherib failed.
 

NathanH83

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It is not my place.
I could explain the HISTORY of Sargon II and the extra-biblical archeological evidence, but that would contribute nothing to the folly of this argument about TOBIT or the inaccuracy of Sennacherib being the son of Shalmaneser.
I am under no obligation to chase after every strawman argument that you choose to erect. I was asked my opinion, I stated my opinion and I quoted an easy to find source to confirm a minor detail of my opinion.

Feel free to reject the Protestant Reformation, Jerome, Archaeology and Wikipedia if it pleases you to do so.
Feel free to embrace Maccabees and Tobit and the Gospel of Thomas if it pleases you to do so.
I am not the keeper of your GNOSTIC wisdom … I am just somebody that offered an opinion when asked.

“Do you not know what I and my fathers have done to all the peoples of the lands? Were the gods of the nations of the lands able at all to deliver their land from my hand? Who was there among all the gods of those nations which my fathers utterly destroyed who could deliver his people out of my hand, that your God should be able to deliver you from my hand?”
-2 Chronicles 32:13-14 - Bible Gateway passage: 2 Chronicles 32:13-14 - New American Standard Bible 1995



Here, Sennacherib admits that his father conquered the northern kingdom of Israel. Shalmaneser conquered the northern kingdom of Israel. What more proof do you need than the scriptures themselves?
 

Josiah

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Aren't you actually rejecting the Protestant Reformation by denouncing Luthers Bible?

Of course not. How silly.


1. Protestantism never declared that the 74 books Luther included in his translation are inerrant, fully canonical and divinely-inscripturated words of God (equal to the rest or not). So, Protestantism never embraced it. It's impossible to reject Protestantism for something it never did. Indeed Luther stated in his translation his personal opinion that 8 of those are NOT canonical, NOT inerrant, NOT inspired, NOT equal to the rest.... but should ONLY be regarded as helpful.


2. Neither Luther or Protestantism said that X number of books MUST appear in every tome with the word "BIBLE" on the cover - only those but all of those. It's impossible to reject something never done. Never was such a ruling or law declared by Luther or Protestantism. Publishing houses, societies and book stores are free to publish tomes with whatever they want to put in - or not put in. My tome - from a Lutheran publishing house - has nearly 2,800 pages of stuff in it, the Table of Contents lists about 300 things in it, no international law or declaration from Protestantism was being violated.



But don't take my word


We won't. Truth matters.

Big, remarkable claims - left entirely unsubstantiated - are just remarkable entirely unsubstantiated claims. POSSIBLE, maybe, but still unsubstantited. If I posted "There's life on the Moon!" and offered NOTHING to evidence that, asking that you not take my word for it and "I could care less if it's true" then probably the best thing to do is dismiss the claim. Even though probably every scientist on the subject would agree it's POSSIBLE but there's a good reason no evidence was offered - because there is none that supports the presence of life. We should not "take your word" for it - just as you advise - when you couldn't care less about it and offer nothing to show it's true (just pile on more and more and more entirely unsubstantiated claims - as if a big pile of baseless claims somehow makes them all correct).




.
 
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atpollard

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Aren't you actually rejecting the Protestant Reformation by denouncing Luthers Bible?
It is appropriate. I am a Particular (Calvinist) Baptist … so my denomination grew out of different origins than “reforming” the RCC.
 

NathanH83

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It is appropriate. I am a Particular (Calvinist) Baptist … so my denomination grew out of different origins than “reforming” the RCC.

Why don’t you make your own decisions instead of letting your denomination determine your choices for you?
 

atpollard

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Why don’t you make your own decisions instead of letting your denomination determine your choices for you?
I was born into atheism, so I made my own decisions based on what I read in the Bible … it turns out those decisions had a name called “Particular Baptist”. Apparently, I was not the first person to actually read what God wrote and believe it. 😉
 

NathanH83

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I was born into atheism, so I made my own decisions based on what I read in the Bible … it turns out those decisions had a name called “Particular Baptist”. Apparently, I was not the first person to actually read what God wrote and believe it.

Then continue to make your own decisions. Study up on how the New Testament sides with the Greek Septuagint over the Hebrew Masoretic most of the time. Have you seen my video which shows the numbers removed from the Genealogy in Genesis 11? The Jews clearly corrupted their own scriptures.
 

MoreCoffee

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When, exactly, did Protestantism proclaim their canon for holy scripture?
 

Josiah

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When, exactly, did Protestantism proclaim their canon for holy scripture?


MoreCoffee -


Many of us have been asking Andrew and Nathan that question for many months now... crickets, evasion, and a constant repetition that Protestants did this.

Many of us have been asking when "the Church" "All Christianity" "All Christians" declared what books are and are not inerrant, fully-canonical, divinely inspired words of God (all equal in every way) as claimed but... yeah....crickets, evasion and a constant repetition of that claim the "The Church" did that.

Many of us have been asking WHAT books were listed "by all the Apostles", asked for something from the 12-14 Apostles that has this list but... here again... crickets, evasion and a constant repetition of that claim "The Apostles declared this."

And many of us have TRIED (for months) over and over and over, to even determine WHAT books they are talking about. Everyone knows what books The Catholic Church embraced in 1546... we know what books the Church of England endorsed around the same time (and how so)... we know what books the Westminister Confession lists... we know what books Luther included in his translation... we know what books are the in Coptic Bible... we know what books Jerome put in his translation (and how he regarded them), we know what books are in the Greek Orthodox Bible... and we know they aren't the same. YET Andrew and Nathan insists there is ONE corpus here, ONE Bible - the one all 12-14 Apostles listed in their mass memo, they just won't say WHICH books they are even talking about. We ask and ask but.... crickets, evasions, and repetitions that there is ONE set of "them" and all we need to is read that memo that all the Apostles sent out and we'd know which.


It seems the heart of the "problem" is Nathan's admission that he often doesn't read what is conveyed to him and Andrew says "I could care less." Both probably explain the crickets.


But MoreCoffee,

You're missing something. Our friends don't accept the position of The Catholic Church here.

Both Nathan and Andrew most often do NOT view the "them" as EQUAL to the rest, as fully canonical (Okay, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, something they sorta do but sorta don't). They don't agree with the post 1546 view of your denomination. They hold that "them" must be in every tome printed, published or sold with the word "BIBLE" on the cover (some international law) BUT they don't say what "them" are (probably NOT the list Trent declared) and they don't consistently argue "they" are fully canonical or equal to the rest (although again, sometimes they do... sometimes they don't... and often they won't say). The main issue of these two is that "them" (whichever "them" are) MUST in every tome with "BIBLE" on the cover, the needed international law - not in HOW they are to be regarded. To my knowledge, The Catholic Church at Trent did NOT declare that all 73 books MUST be in every tome printed or published or sold that has BIBLE on the cover, only that it embraces those specific 73 as its Scripture. To my knowledge, Trent said nothing about publishing houses or book stores. Our friend's issue does not appear to be HOW "they" (?) are to be regarded but that there must be some international law that mandates that "them" (and only "them") must be in all Bibles.





.
 
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Albion

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Then continue to make your own decisions. Study up on how the New Testament sides with the Greek Septuagint over the Hebrew Masoretic most of the time. Have you seen my video which shows the numbers removed from the Genealogy in Genesis 11? The Jews clearly corrupted their own scriptures.
Urging anyone to make up his own personal version of a Bible, choosing which books he wants to consider to be divine revelation and which others he'll discard, is not very good advice. :rolleyes:
 

MoreCoffee

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So @Josiah, you do not know when Protestants defined their canon?
 
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