Evolution

[Faith]

Ok, got another one for ya.
The LCMS rejects evolution. So how to explain all the things that indicate evolution happens?

 

[Fritz Kobus]

What things are there that indicate evolution happens?

AFAIK every piece of evidence (data) out there can be used to explain things in a creation model vs evolution model. So the data is relatively meaningless, except that it does seem to fit very well with the creation model.

 

[Faith]

<<<<<<Does an Armless Fossil Shed Light on How Animals Like Snakes Lost Their Limbs?
by Ken Ham on April 13, 2022
Featured in Ken Ham

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I’ve used many words to describe evolution over the years, but I think I might have a new one which describes a recent fossil find: “disarming.” This pair of fossils (one of an adult specimen and one of a juvenile) of Nagini mazonense, a small snake-like animal (technically a molgophid recumbirostran) that supposedly lived about 308 million years ago, was discovered in the Francis Creek Shale of Illinois. The adult fossil specimen measures about 4 inches long (10 cm), and although it has reduced hind limbs, it has no pelvic girdle to support those limbs or front limbs. The more complete juvenile is around 2 inches (5 cm) long and also has no front limbs or pelvic girdle.

Now, the research journal that covered the fossil find constantly attributes this loss of genetic information as “evolution.” They point out that this fossil closely resembles how snakes and caecilians (legless amphibians) exhibit progressively reduced limbs before complete loss in their “evolutionary histories.” But today, there are living reptiles that have no arms but reduced hindlimbs (Pygopodidae—“armless” geckos and Chamaesaura—“grass lizards”). Maybe they just haven’t “evolved” enough yet!

The researchers described the proposed mechanisms behind limb loss in Nagini:

Although the mechanisms of limb reduction in many tetrapod lineages remain incompletely understood, it appears that limb reduction and loss can be accomplished by failures or disruptions to normal development during any of the three phases of limb development, resulting in a vast array of variation in limb-reduced phenotypes. Late phase disruptions to growth plate development, particularly the rate of longitudinal growth or timing of growth plate closure, are most common and typically lead to conditions where the majority of limb elements are retained but are reduced in overall size. Disruptions in limb morphogenesis and patterning during the limb bud phase will often result in loss of distinct limb modules, commonly the loss of entire digits but also the loss of other distal (but not proximal) elements, including carpals and/or tarsals. Failure in the earliest phase establishing the limb field is relatively rare but is the mechanism identified as resulting in the loss of the pectoral limb and girdle and associated musculature in caecilians and snakes and we suggest that this is the mechanism involved in forelimb loss in Nagini as well based on similarities in the pattern of limb loss (that is, complete lack of proximal appendicular elements and absence of a forelimb rudiment).
In other words, these are mutations in the developing reptile’s genes which disrupt its ability to grow limbs. (It is worth noting here that there is some debate among evolutionary biologists who differ on whether these recumbirostrans are reptiles or amphibians). This is a result of the curse (Genesis 3), not an evolutionary advancement. Or it may be that God designed these types of reptiles (or amphibians) as limbless or with reduced limbs originally (as part of the creeping things of Genesis 1:25).

Now to be sure, even in a cursed world, God allows some animals to adapt to their environment. And for burrowing or tree-dwelling animals, which many of the “legless lizards” are, not having limbs is not a detriment to their survival but may actually aid the animal.

Now to be sure, even in a cursed world, God allows some animals to adapt to their environment.
In any event, this is not molecules-to-man evolution but potentially a developmental mutation and the loss of information. Ironically, though, the researchers placed Nagini in a phylogenetic tree where both its ancestors and descendants are four-limbed recumbirostrans. How does this show an evolutionary developmental process in lizards or amphibians? It’s not just inconsistent: it’s totally disarming to their “story.”>>>>>>

 

[Josiah]

Ok, got another one for ya.
The LCMS rejects evolution. So how to explain all the things that indicate evolution happens?

Again, yet again, still one more time..... YES, the prevailing opinion in the LCMS is that the common understanding of the theory of Evolution conflicts with the Bible and thus is rejected. BUT (and here's the point that seems to thus far alludes you, my esteemed brother), this is not dogma, it is not binding doctrine. Nowhere do the Lutheran Confessions say a word about this. You will likely not be excommunicated from an LCMS member congregation if you personally agree with an understanding of the theory (although I suspect your pastor will disagree with you). Not every belief of LCMS persons is dogma. If you were Confirmed in the LCMS, you were asked if you agreed with Luther's Small Catechism (not any explanation of it but the actual Confession which is maybe 6 pages long), not if you reject some understanding of evolution or believe abortion is wrong or any other view common in the LCMS.



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[Faith]

Again, yet again, still one more time..... YES, the prevailing opinion in the LCMS is that the common understanding of the theory of Evolution conflicts with the Bible and thus is rejected. BUT (and here's the point that seems to thus far alludes you, my esteemed brother), this is not dogma, it is not binding doctrine. Nowhere do the Lutheran Confessions say a word about this. You will likely not be excommunicated from an LCMS member congregation if you personally agree with an understanding of the theory (although I suspect your pastor will disagree with you). Not every belief of LCMS persons is dogma. If you were Confirmed in the LCMS, you were asked if you agreed with Luther's Small Catechism (not any explanation of it but the actual Confession which is maybe 6 pages long), not if you reject some understanding of evolution or believe abortion is wrong or any other view common in the LCMS.



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Be nice.

 

[Faith]

What things are there that indicate evolution happens?

AFAIK every piece of evidence (data) out there can be used to explain things in a creation model vs evolution model. So the data is relatively meaningless, except that it does seem to fit very well with the creation model.

What do you think about what’s said in the article I posted above?

 

[Josiah]

What do you think about what’s said in the article I posted above?

I think it never mentions The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. Nor indicate that members of congregations that belong to the LCMS are bound to reject any science theory.


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[Faith]

I think it never mentions The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. Nor indicate that members of congregations that belong to the LCMS are bound to reject any science theory.


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My Catholic Bible mentions something about the possibility of us coming from other life forms In the front commentary.
And as a former Catholic some of those teachings stick. I just want to get to the truth.

 

[Lamb]

I'm moving this to the Ethics & Debate forum since it's not really concerning what LCMS believes and fits better in the other forum.

 

[Faith]

What do you think, Lamb?

 

[Lamb]

What do you think, Lamb?

I don't think believing in Evolution or not should sway us as to whether we have faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Faith]

I don't think believing in Evolution or not should sway us as to whether we have faith in Jesus Christ.

Oh, I don’t either. I’m just looking for a permanent church home, which I may already have. I just worry that I don’t belong there if creationism is wrong.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

What do you think about what’s said in the article I posted above?

Ken's article makes sense. The example of the tiny snake-like animal would not show anything evolving, but rather devolving in a loss of limbs. Generally, evolutionists will take an example of natural selection and say it is evidence of evolution, but it is not. Natural selection is just changes using existing genetic material, nothing new is created.

 

[Spindle4]

(and here's the point that seems to thus far alludes you, my esteemed brother),

Hope1960 is a female.

Oh, I don’t either. I’m just looking for a permanent church home, which I may already have. I just worry that I don’t belong there if creationism is wrong.

More important is whether a person is a Bible-believer.

Evolutionism and the attempt to reconcile it with the Bible is what is known as Theistic Evolution, which maintains God designed the environment and primordial microbes to evolve into all forms of life over millions of years of mutations and death, resulting eventually in the creation of humankind.

• The Bible shows that there was no death prior to the disobedience of Adam, so Theistic Evolution is incompatible with the Bible.
• God saw that all His Creation was good.
• Death, both physical and spiritual is God's enemy, so not part of Creation pre-fall when God saw that everything was good.
• The first animal to die was the one God killed to provide coverings for Adam and Eve, a prefiguring of the physical death of Christ to redeem His People and His Creation from the curse of death. Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
• The theistic evolutionist is as gullible as Eve, believing the Devil's lie.

Quotes from Internet Correspondent Shiloh 357:

1. “Theistic Evolution is self-contradicting. It is like Atheistic Christianity. Theistic Evolution requires death before Adam's fall in the Garden and many theistic evolutionists argue that Adam and Eve were not the first people; just the first people to have a relationship with God.”
2. “Theistic Evolutionists have to modify the problem of man being created from the dust of the earth. This is a problem for them because it means that Adam was not the product of Evolution, but a direct and special creation of God. So even then, a theistic evolution cannot be internally consistent without modifying the Bible to reconcile the problem. Even then the reconciliation is purely imaginary.”
3. “In an evolutionary mindset, sin doesn't exist. And if sin doesn't exist, if it can be explained away in the naturalism of the theory of Evolution, it has a devastating impact on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

Theistic Evolutionists propose millions of years of random mutations and physical death prior to the arrival of human beings, and then claim only spiritual death is the punishment and curse for sin.

• The Bible dispels this notion in a number of passages, particularly in Romans 8:23, speaking of the redemption of our body.

Rom 8:18-23 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (19) For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. (20) For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; (21) because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. (23) Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
1Co 15:52-54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away

The question is whether or not a person is a Bible-believer who accepts and understands how death came about in a perfect Universe, or whether they are deceived like Eve in believing the lie of evolutionary theory.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

1. “In an evolutionary mindset, sin doesn't exist. And if sin doesn't exist, if it can be explained away in the naturalism of the theory of Evolution, it has a devastating impact on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

And a devastating impact on human relations, society, politics, etc.

Atheistic evolutionists express moral outrage against murder and rape, but if evolution is true, how can there be moral outrage since it was killing and rape that got us where we are today as a species? Animals kill and rape every day. Why are killing and rape OK for animals but not for humans, who are only supposedly highly evolved animals? If evolution is true, at death we are nothing more than dust in the wind and in life we are nothing more than a bag of meat and bones.

If Evolution is Right, Can Anything Be Wrong?

 

[Josiah]

My Catholic Bible mentions something about the possibility of us coming from other life forms In the front commentary.

It seems likely that your Catholic Bible is not a part of the Lutheran Confessions, nor an official publication of The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. What it "says' and what the LCMS mandates of every member of every one of its parishes seem like two different things.



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[Faith]

It seems likely that your Catholic Bible is not a part of the Lutheran Confessions, nor an official publication of The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. What it "says' and what the LCMS mandates of every member of every one of its parishes seem like two different things.



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True. It’s a NAB and not at all related to Lutheran teaching. However, now you see where I’m coming from, what with a Catholic background, still occasionally reading my old Bible. Though I only read it when I feel the pull to go back to the RCC.
And I still feel badly about the Catholic priest insinuating that I’m not receiving a valid Eucharist now.

 

[Faith]

Again, yet again, still one more time..... YES, the prevailing opinion in the LCMS is that the common understanding of the theory of Evolution conflicts with the Bible and thus is rejected. BUT (and here's the point that seems to thus far alludes you, my esteemed brother), this is not dogma, it is not binding doctrine. Nowhere do the Lutheran Confessions say a word about this. You will likely not be excommunicated from an LCMS member congregation if you personally agree with an understanding of the theory (although I suspect your pastor will disagree with you). Not every belief of LCMS persons is dogma. If you were Confirmed in the LCMS, you were asked if you agreed with Luther's Small Catechism (not any explanation of it but the actual Confession which is maybe 6 pages long), not if you reject some understanding of evolution or believe abortion is wrong or any other view common in the LCMS.



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I’m a woman.

 

[Spindle4]

I’m a woman.

Quite a smart one too, I'm pickin'.

The main thing is belonging to the Body of Christ.

Eph 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; (5) one Lord, one faith, one baptism; (6) one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Heb 12:22-24 But you have come to:

• Mount Zion and to the city of the living God,
• the heavenly Jerusalem,
• to an innumerable company of angels, (23)
• to the general assembly and ekklesia of the firstborn who are registered in heaven,
• to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, (24)
• to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Quite a smart one too, I'm pickin'.

The main thing is belonging to the Body of Christ.

Eph 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; (5) one Lord, one faith, one baptism; (6) one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Heb 12:22-24 But you have come to:

• Mount Zion and to the city of the living God,
• the heavenly Jerusalem,
• to an innumerable company of angels, (23)
• to the general assembly and ekklesia of the firstborn who are registered in heaven,
• to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, (24)
• to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Yes, the true church is all believers worldwide, no matter what denomination they are in. I don't think you can find a denomination you will agree with 100%, so you have to find one that is close and go with it.