I believe Noah’s flood was 5,000 years ago, not 4,400.

[Fritz Kobus]

I think it’s important to understand that Eusebius attended the Council of Nicaea. He would have met church leaders from all over the world. He says they’ve all only approved of the Septuagint. This isn’t a Roman thing. In fact, not too long later the Roman church approved of the Latin Vulgate, which has a significantly different timeline, placing the flood about 4400 years ago. So the Roman church actually deviated from the numbers in the Septuagint, while the Eastern Orthodox churches stuck to the Septuagint.

I would like to see more exploration of the Septuagint, probably should have its own thread. I notice this site's statement of faith includes both versions of the Nicene Creed, which is a nice touch to make the site friendly to our Orthodox brothers and sisters.

 

[Lees]

Does it make sense for Shem to have outlived his descendants? Is that consistent with the narrative of the Bible?

I made a video explaining my view on this. I can share it with you if you like. The Septuagint we have today isn’t perfect in every aspect. But I believe this is one thing that it gets right.

No. Im not interested in a video. You can present your argument here.

So, again, 1.) where is it definitely established that the 'Septuagint' was translated from the original?

If the 'Septuagint' isn't perfect, why should I trust your use of it?

And, you ignore my questions. Where is this so called 'Septuagint' everyone loves to quote from? Where is the oldest known complete copy of the so called 'Septuagint'?

Lees

 

[Lees]

I think it’s important to understand that Eusebius attended the Council of Nicaea. He would have met church leaders from all over the world. He says they’ve all only approved of the Septuagint. This isn’t a Roman thing. In fact, not too long later the Roman church approved of the Latin Vulgate, which has a significantly different timeline, placing the flood about 4400 years ago. So the Roman church actually deviated from the numbers in the Septuagint, while the Eastern Orthodox churches stuck to the Septuagint.

That Eusebius attended the Council of Nicea proves nothing. Who was Eusebius and what were his beliefs and motives?

Lees

 

[Lees]

The oldest copies of the Septuagint are Codex Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, and Alexandrinus. There’s many other copies of the Septuagint found as well. I know that many of our English translations today draw upon multiple sources for the Septuagint.

Keep in mind, there is not one single source text that the Hebrew is drawn upon either. They draw upon Hebrew Masoretic Texts such as the Leningrad Codex, Aleppo Codex, and the Ben Chayyim, as well as sources from the Dead Sea Scrolls. Modern versions also draw upon the Septuagint and Latin Vulgate, even in the Old Testament. English translations don’t draw upon one single source Hebrew text. They don’t even draw upon only the Hebrew text, since they also look at Greek and Latin.

Ah yes. The 'minority texts'. The Alexandrian Texts. The Texts from which all 'modern translations' love to translate from. Is that the Septuagint? The Alexandrian Texts?

Of course there is not one single source text the Hebrew is translated from. Which is why the KJV translate from the majority and not the minority texts. The minority texts translates heavily upon the Septuagint. Why?

Where is the oldest and complete translation of the Old Testament into Greek found? Where is this Septuagint that everyone loves to quote from? Are you saying it is the 3 Texts called S;inaticus, Vaticanus, and Alexandrinus?

Lees

 

[Andrew]

Ah yes. The 'minority texts'. The Alexandrian Texts. The Texts from which all 'modern translations' love to translate from. Is that the Septuagint? The Alexandrian Texts?

Of course there is not one single source text the Hebrew is translated from. Which is why the KJV translate from the majority and not the minority texts. The minority texts translates heavily upon the Septuagint. Why?

Where is the oldest and complete translation of the Old Testament into Greek found? Where is this Septuagint that everyone loves to quote from? Are you saying it is the 3 Texts called S;inaticus, Vaticanus, and Alexandrinus?

Lees

Aquila had replaced the majority by removing them from the Synagogues and replacing them with his greek translation with the same alterations that we find in the Masoretic, thus scholars dub his translation as based off a "proto-masoretic".

This was during the time right after the Sadducies lost their priestly role when the Temple was destroyed and the Pharisees began practicing what would later become mainstream Rabbanic Judaism.

These are the same group of men that Jesus himself charged with making the Law of no effect due to their crafty and wilfull misinterpretations of the Law... Moses told the Israelites not to add or take away from what the Lord has commanded them, this also meant that no new laws could be written down as divine.

What do they do? They write down the so called "Oral Law" supposedly passed down from Moses... but before they did this they watered down the words of the prophets regarding the Messiah that point to Jesus.

A good example..

Jesus read in the synagogue the scroll of Isaiah with the line "and recovery of sight to the blind"

Remember the man who was born blind that Jesus gave sight to? His own parents did not want to discuss that miracle because they had heard that the Synagogues were kicking out believers in Jesus... turn to that passage in Isaiah and you tell me how the Septuagint got it right while the Masoretic makes Jesus out to be a liar because the line "and recovery of sight to the blind" is NOT to be found in the divine Word of God to prophet Isaiah according to the Masoretic/King James Version.

 

[Lees]

Aquila had replaced the majority by removing them from the Synagogues and replacing them with his greek translation with the same alterations that we find in the Masoretic, thus scholars dub his translation as based off a "proto-masoretic".

This was during the time right after the Sadducies lost their priestly role when the Temple was destroyed and the Pharisees began practicing what would later become mainstream Rabbanic Judaism.

These are the same group of men that Jesus himself charged with making the Law of no effect due to their crafty and wilfull misinterpretations of the Law... Moses told the Israelites not to add or take away from what the Lord has commanded them, this also meant that no new laws could be written down as divine.

What do they do? They write down the so called "Oral Law" supposedly passed down from Moses... but before they did this they watered down the words of the prophets regarding the Messiah that point to Jesus.

A good example..

Jesus read in the synagogue the scroll of Isaiah with the line "and recovery of sight to the blind"

Remember the man who was born blind that Jesus gave sight to? His own parents did not want to discuss that miracle because they had heard that the Synagogues were kicking out believers in Jesus... turn to that passage in Isaiah and you tell me how the Septuagint got it right while the Masoretic makes Jesus out to be a liar because the line "and recovery of sight to the blind" is NOT to be found in the divine Word of God to prophet Isaiah according to the Masoretic/King James Version.

So what? You ignore my question.

Where is the oldest complete translation of the Hebrew Old Testament translated into the Greek found? Where is this so called 'Septuagint' quoted from?

Lees

 

[NathanH83]

That Eusebius attended the Council of Nicea proves nothing. Who was Eusebius and what were his beliefs and motives?

Lees

It proves that he knew which Bible the attendees were using.

 

[NathanH83]

No. Im not interested in a video. You can present your argument here.

So, again, 1.) where is it definitely established that the 'Septuagint' was translated from the original?

If the 'Septuagint' isn't perfect, why should I trust your use of it?

And, you ignore my questions. Where is this so called 'Septuagint' everyone loves to quote from? Where is the oldest known complete copy of the so called 'Septuagint'?

Lees

It’s a 30-minute long video which explains my belief graphically. You want me to type it all here?

Basically, it comes down to the fact that it’s not just the Greek Septuagint that includes an extra 100 years on the 6 generations from Arphaxad down to Serug, but also the Samaritan Pentateuch and Flavius Josephus include them as well.

Plus, that combined with the fact that it doesn’t make sense for Shem to have outlived almost all of his descendants down to the 8th generation. It makes more sense for each generation to have died in succession, one after the other. That’s consistent with the biblical narrative.

After all, scripture says Abraham died “old and full of years” at 175. But that wouldn’t make sense if his great great great great grandfather Heber is still alive at 460. It makes sense in the Septuagint, where Heber died 500 years before Abraham died.

Also, what I didn’t share in the video is that fact that not only does Josephus agree with the chronology in the Septuagint, but so does Eupolemus, a Jewish historian before Christ about 158 BC, and also church fathers agreed with the chronology in the Septuagint, such as Theophilus, Africanus, and Eusebius, from the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries accordingly.

So there’s tremendous support for the timeline in the Septuagint, along with the fact that it makes more logical sense, and fits with the Biblical narrative.

As a side issue, this also fixes the accusations that atheists bring up about the Egyptian pyramids pre-dating Noah’s flood yet lacking water damage, and with there being enough time for the population to have grown from 8 people to a large enough size after the flood to build the Tower of Babel. These are a problem in the Hebrew Masoretic, but not in the Greek Septuagint. In the Septuagint, there’s no problem at all when it comes to these issues.

On top of that, there are hundreds of examples of Jesus and the apostles siding with the Septuagint throughout the New Testament when they quote the Old Testament scriptures.

 

[Andrew]

So what? You ignore my question.

Where is the oldest complete translation of the Hebrew Old Testament translated into the Greek found? Where is this so called 'Septuagint' quoted from?

Lees

Where is it?
Last time it was seen it was used and quoted from 1rst 2nd and 3rd century ante-nicen church fathers starting with Pauls appointed Bishop and overseer of the Church of Rome named Clement who wrote near the end and after the 1rst Century quoting strictly from the Septuagint and preferred Wisdom and Barauch to be his favorite books to use in for his sermons. And then of course you have the majority of ante-nicene church figures writing and quoting from the Septuagint so called "apocrypha" 300+ times alongside the
Hebrews canonical books in the Septuagint...sooo. where are they? They are translated into Latin and kept inside the church, kind of like when the Jews translated into Greek because Hebrew was becoming a dying language.. and they too lost their original scrolls.

What is your point? The septuagint translations are unreliable? Well not only is the Masoretic text full of innacurracies but it is also sprinkled with a touch of Septuagint.. did you know that? Did you know that the Hebrew given to a Jerome caused him problems with the church so in some areas where major difference would not go unnoticed in the Church, he sided with the Septuagint and rejected rightfully the perversions that unbeliving Rabbis shamelessly tried to pass off as authentic.

The Apostles of Christ Jesus who quoted from the Septuagint, passed down that tradition and yeah eventually the originals were lost as it shifted into Latin.. and then Jerome comes along and The Papa wants a fresh new Hebrew to Latin translation, skipping the greek all together, well unfortunately Jerome did the work he was sent to do regardless of the outcome and it turns out that that his personal Rabbi gave him a Hebrew that had watered the prophecies down to obscurity,

Messiah will be born of a woman (Jews take that to mean NOT by a miracle virgin birth, thus not Jesus)

"The Gentiles shall trust" Isaiah (quoted by Mathew) turns into" is now "the isles shall wait for his Law" (Nothing about Gentiles, only LAW!!!)

Hebrews 10:5 quotes Psalms 406
"But a body have you prepared for me"
but in the Masoretic Psalms 406 replaces that line with "my ears how thou opened"
(NO BODY IS PREPARED YOU IDOLATERS!)

Masoretic Text is Rabbanic corruption and perversion of scripure to try to draw Christians out of the faith and keep Jews from converting.. its clear as day.

 

[NathanH83]

So what? You ignore my question.

Where is the oldest complete translation of the Hebrew Old Testament translated into the Greek found? Where is this so called 'Septuagint' quoted from?

Lees

I already answered that. The oldest codices of the Septuagint that are known to be in existence today are Codex Vaticanus, Alexandrinus, and Sinaiticus.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

I find the topic fascinating and the fact that the Septuagint was translated a couple centuries before Jesus' advent vs the Masoretic text a few centuries after leads me to belive the septuagint may well be the better translation. If Jesus and the Apostles quoted from it, then it seems like the one the Church should prefer. It seems the Orthodox Church stands alone in that it is the only church that did not add to the original Nicene Creed. All other churches follow the Roman Church's lead on it, perhaps out of ignorance. I think there may be a lot we can learn from the Orthodox Church.

 

[NathanH83]

No. Im not interested in a video. You can present your argument here.

So, again, 1.) where is it definitely established that the 'Septuagint' was translated from the original?

If the 'Septuagint' isn't perfect, why should I trust your use of it?

And, you ignore my questions. Where is this so called 'Septuagint' everyone loves to quote from? Where is the oldest known complete copy of the so called 'Septuagint'?

Lees

To better understand my belief and my point of view, please take the time to watch the video presentation I put together. Please, I put a lot of time and energy making it. It has to be seen visually. You have to see the difference in the Hebrew and Greek chart, and how the Hebrew chart screws with the Biblical narrative.

 

[Lees]

Where is it?
Last time it was seen it was used and quoted from 1rst 2nd and 3rd century ante-nicen church fathers starting with Pauls appointed Bishop and overseer of the Church of Rome named Clement who wrote near the end and after the 1rst Century quoting strictly from the Septuagint and preferred Wisdom and Barauch to be his favorite books to use in for his sermons. And then of course you have the majority of ante-nicene church figures writing and quoting from the Septuagint so called "apocrypha" 300+ times alongside the
Hebrews canonical books in the Septuagint...sooo. where are they? They are translated into Latin and kept inside the church, kind of like when the Jews translated into Greek because Hebrew was becoming a dying language.. and they too lost their original scrolls.

What is your point? The septuagint translations are unreliable? Well not only is the Masoretic text full of innacurracies but it is also sprinkled with a touch of Septuagint.. did you know that? Did you know that the Hebrew given to a Jerome caused him problems with the church so in some areas where major difference would not go unnoticed in the Church, he sided with the Septuagint and rejected rightfully the perversions that unbeliving Rabbis shamelessly tried to pass off as authentic.

The Apostles of Christ Jesus who quoted from the Septuagint, passed down that tradition and yeah eventually the originals were lost as it shifted into Latin.. and then Jerome comes along and The Papa wants a fresh new Hebrew to Latin translation, skipping the greek all together, well unfortunately Jerome did the work he was sent to do regardless of the outcome and it turns out that that his personal Rabbi gave him a Hebrew that had watered the prophecies down to obscurity,

Messiah will be born of a woman (Jews take that to mean NOT by a miracle virgin birth, thus not Jesus)

"The Gentiles shall trust" Isaiah (quoted by Mathew) turns into" is now "the isles shall wait for his Law" (Nothing about Gentiles, only LAW!!!)

Hebrews 10:5 quotes Psalms 406
"But a body have you prepared for me"
but in the Masoretic Psalms 406 replaces that line with "my ears how thou opened"
(NO BODY IS PREPARED YOU IDOLATERS!)

Masoretic Text is Rabbanic corruption and perversion of scripure to try to draw Christians out of the faith and keep Jews from converting.. its clear as day.

Last time it was seen? So, it doesn't exist anymore to be held accountable?

Strange admission.

Again, where is the earliest complete copy of the Septuagint?

Lees

 

[Lees]

It’s a 30-minute long video which explains my belief graphically. You want me to type it all here?

Basically, it comes down to the fact that it’s not just the Greek Septuagint that includes an extra 100 years on the 6 generations from Arphaxad down to Serug, but also the Samaritan Pentateuch and Flavius Josephus include them as well.

Plus, that combined with the fact that it doesn’t make sense for Shem to have outlived almost all of his descendants down to the 8th generation. It makes more sense for each generation to have died in succession, one after the other. That’s consistent with the biblical narrative.

After all, scripture says Abraham died “old and full of years” at 175. But that wouldn’t make sense if his great great great great grandfather Heber is still alive at 460. It makes sense in the Septuagint, where Heber died 500 years before Abraham died.

Also, what I didn’t share in the video is that fact that not only does Josephus agree with the chronology in the Septuagint, but so does Eupolemus, a Jewish historian before Christ about 158 BC, and also church fathers agreed with the chronology in the Septuagint, such as Theophilus, Africanus, and Eusebius, from the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries accordingly.

So there’s tremendous support for the timeline in the Septuagint, along with the fact that it makes more logical sense, and fits with the Biblical narrative.

As a side issue, this also fixes the accusations that atheists bring up about the Egyptian pyramids pre-dating Noah’s flood yet lacking water damage, and with there being enough time for the population to have grown from 8 people to a large enough size after the flood to build the Tower of Babel. These are a problem in the Hebrew Masoretic, but not in the Greek Septuagint. In the Septuagint, there’s no problem at all when it comes to these issues.

On top of that, there are hundreds of examples of Jesus and the apostles siding with the Septuagint throughout the New Testament when they quote the Old Testament scriptures.

No.

There are only hundreds of examples of Jesus and the apostles siding witht the Septuagint if you believe there is a Septuagint.

Again, where is the oldest complete translation of the Hebrew into Greek Old Testament called the Septuagint?

Lees

 

[Andrew]

Last time it was seen? So, it doesn't exist anymore to be held accountable?

Strange admission.

Again, where is the earliest complete copy of the Septuagint?

Lees

I told you they are lost

 

[Andrew]

No.

There are only hundreds of examples of Jesus and the apostles siding witht the Septuagint if you believe there is a Septuagint.

Again, where is the oldest complete translation of the Hebrew into Greek Old Testament called the Septuagint?

Lees

What does it matter? The Hebrew text are lost too

 

[Lees]

I told you they are lost

Lost? So the Septuagint is a figmant of your and others imaginiation which must be believed?

Again, strange admission.

My Bible has many manuscripts, versions, copies from which to compare to and check for accuracy. It is strange that there is no 'Septuagint' from which to check it's so called accuracy.

Lees

 

[Lees]

What does it matter? The Hebrew text are lost too

No.

We have no 'originial' manuscripts. But we have many, many, later manuscripts, versions, copies, from which to compare and to develop what we now have in the Bible.

And, this gives us a method of checking the accuracy of our Bible.

But how does one check the accuracy of an imaginary Septuagint? Where is this so called Septuagint to translate from?

Lees

 

[Andrew]

No.

We have no 'originial' manuscripts. But we have many, many, later manuscripts, versions, copies, from which to compare and to develop what we now have in the Bible.

And, this gives us a method of checking the accuracy of our Bible.

But how does one check the accuracy of an imaginary Septuagint? Where is this so called Septuagint to translate from?

Lees

The modern Septuagint is based on copies, The modern Hebrew is based on copies..
I am not understanding your logic.

From Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English the Septuagint today is still far more accurate and far more older than the Masoretic Text, a Text that does not even resemble archaic Hebrew.

The NT was written in Greek btw, and they quote from the Greek so do you believe the NT is iminginary to?

Josephus used the Greek, in fact he stumbled with Hebrew as most Jews did at the time.

You have heard of the hellenistic age right?

 

[Andrew]

Lost? So the Septuagint is a figmant of your and others imaginiation which must be believed?

Again, strange admission.

My Bible has many manuscripts, versions, copies from which to compare to and check for accuracy. It is strange that there is no 'Septuagint' from which to check it's so called accuracy.

Lees

Go find a Hebrew original that the late Masoretic was supposedly copied from