Thorn in the flesh

[Angelina1239]

What could it have been, for Paul? This affliction that kept him grounded and not too carried away by his elation in revelation and Christ?
There has been lots of conjecture over the centuries but what do you think?
It had to be something ongoing with his health, maybe hidden from others, that challenged his strength regularly. It stopped him taking fitness for granted and being arrogant, like we tend to do when young and vigorous. Maybe migraine, an ulcer or digestive complaint. It is a mystery he never revealed and I wonder why?

I find as I get old, that I lean more and more on prayer as I suffer physical pain. It does bring us closer to God. It is frightening when our bodies malfunction and yet as Paul says,we are strongest in our weakness as we humble ourselves to acknowledge all our strength comes from our God without whom we can do nothing.

 

[Nic]

What could it have been, for Paul? This affliction that kept him grounded and not too carried away by his elation in revelation and Christ?
There has been lots of conjecture over the centuries but what do you think?
It had to be something ongoing with his health, maybe hidden from others, that challenged his strength regularly. It stopped him taking fitness for granted and being arrogant, like we tend to do when young and vigorous. Maybe migraine, an ulcer or digestive complaint. It is a mystery he never revealed and I wonder why?

I find as I get old, that I lean more and more on prayer as I suffer physical pain. It does bring us closer to God. It is frightening when our bodies malfunction and yet as Paul says,we are strongest in our weakness as we humble ourselves to acknowledge all our strength comes from our God without whom we can do nothing.

Concerning the last paragraph, I find at times this is true while other times I see clearly why God died for a wretch like me.

 

[Spindle4]

What could it have been, for Paul? This affliction that kept him grounded and not too carried away by his elation in revelation and Christ?
There has been lots of conjecture over the centuries but what do you think?
It had to be something ongoing with his health, maybe hidden from others, that challenged his strength regularly. It stopped him taking fitness for granted and being arrogant, like we tend to do when young and vigorous. Maybe migraine, an ulcer or digestive complaint. It is a mystery he never revealed and I wonder why?

I find as I get old, that I lean more and more on prayer as I suffer physical pain. It does bring us closer to God. It is frightening when our bodies malfunction and yet as Paul says,we are strongest in our weakness as we humble ourselves to acknowledge all our strength comes from our God without whom we can do nothing.

Hi Angelina 1239,

I've spoken on Paul's thorn in the flesh many times, and have these notes below on file.

THE PERSECUTION OF THE APOSTLE PAUL: A Painful Thorn In The Flesh. 2 Cor 12:7

The context of the preceding chapters and particularly the list of challenges faced (see below) lead up to Paul's defining statement where he both identifies the demonic source of his persecution and the divine purpose it serves.

2Co 11:23-33
(23) Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more;

• in labours more abundant,
• in stripes above measure,
• in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. (24)
• Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. (25)
• Thrice was I beaten with rods,
• once was I stoned,
• thrice I suffered shipwreck,
• a night and a day I have been in the deep; (26)
• In journeyings often,
• in perils of waters,
• in perils of robbers,
• in perils by mine own countrymen,
• in perils by the heathen,
• in perils in the city,
• in perils in the wilderness,
• in perils in the sea,
• in perils among false brethren; (27)
• In weariness and painfulness,
• in watchings often,
• in hunger and thirst,
• in fastings often,
• in cold and nakedness. (28)
• Beside those things that are without, that which comes upon me daily, the care of all the churches. (29)
• Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? (30)
• If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

(31) The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knows that I lie not. (32)

• In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me: (33)
• And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

The message from Satan to Paul was don't preach the Gospel or face constant antagonism, and this was a thorn in Paul's flesh because it dealt to his pride, which is a work of the flesh.

God's grace is sufficient to prevent works of the flesh in His servants when they see His hand at work in their humbling.

 

[Josiah]

The THEORIES I've heard is that either he had a speech impediment or that he was blind (or nearly so).

But it seems possible to me that it was simply the hardship he faced in ministry.



.

 

[Angelina1239]

The THEORIES I've heard is that either he had a speech impediment or that he was blind (or nearly so).

But it seems possible to me that it was simply the hardship he faced in ministry.



.

Interesting, but I think it was pain of some kind. Maybe a limp, back problem. A hidden problem that meant he was reminded all the time that he needed God's healing.
As I get older, I too feel my mortality and vulnerability. I remember in my youth how invincible I felt, as if I could take on the world. Now I feel the fear of losing my independence.

Paul's experience reminds us that physical frailty can help us dig deep into our resources and be humbled.

 

[Spindle4]

The THEORIES I've heard is that either he had a speech impediment or that he was blind (or nearly so).

But it seems possible to me that it was simply the hardship he faced in ministry..

Yes, there is an inherent fleshly expectation of special treatment that comes with Christian Service, especially among those whose giftings are pronounced, as were Paul's. Being selected and used by the Lord in Apostleship, with revelations, visions and miracles in evidence, any tendency to think nothing bad would happen to him and that everyone would recognise him as a superior saint, was laid to rest when the purpose of his humbling hassles was divinely provided to Paul.

We tend to think everything will go smoothly, like clockwork because we are doing the Lord's work, and when this doesn't happen some allow their disappointments to fester into bitterness when they should count them all joy.

Jas 1:2-4 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, (3) knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. (4) But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

 

[Lees]

What could it have been, for Paul? This affliction that kept him grounded and not too carried away by his elation in revelation and Christ?
There has been lots of conjecture over the centuries but what do you think?
It had to be something ongoing with his health, maybe hidden from others, that challenged his strength regularly. It stopped him taking fitness for granted and being arrogant, like we tend to do when young and vigorous. Maybe migraine, an ulcer or digestive complaint. It is a mystery he never revealed and I wonder why?

I find as I get old, that I lean more and more on prayer as I suffer physical pain. It does bring us closer to God. It is frightening when our bodies malfunction and yet as Paul says,we are strongest in our weakness as we humble ourselves to acknowledge all our strength comes from our God without whom we can do nothing.

I think it's good that we are not told what the thorn was else unless we had the exact same condition, we wouldn't consider ours a thorn in the flesh.

I do believe it could have been a health issue. But if it was, it was aggravated by the satanic world, a messenger of satan.

I have also thought, and seldom see this addressed, that it could be some sin of Paul. We do know that Paul had his struggles with sin. (Rom. 7:24) And if it were a sin, all the more reason for Paul to not want to reveal it. And if it were a sin, what greater tool to humble one who had been given such revelation from God. I'm not saying it was...just a thought.

Seems God's response, 'my grace is sufficient for thee', would fit well if it was.

Lees

 

[Spindle4]

I think it's good that we are not told what the thorn was else unless we had the exact same condition, we wouldn't consider ours a thorn in the flesh.

I do believe it could have been a health issue. But if it was, it was aggravated by the satanic world, a messenger of satan.

I have also thought, and seldom see this addressed, that it could be some sin of Paul. We do know that Paul had his struggles with sin. (Rom. 7:24) And if it were a sin, all the more reason for Paul to not want to reveal it. And if it were a sin, what greater tool to humble one who had been given such revelation from God. I'm not saying it was...just a thought.

Seems God's response, 'my grace is sufficient for thee', would fit well if it was.

Lees

If I may just add some contextual material from the previous chapters, which are sometimes overlooked, we are made aware of the many unpleasant experiences that continually pressed upon Paul.

2Co 11:30 (NJKV) If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.

2Co 11:30 (KJV) If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

Quote from John Gill's Commentary:

If I must needs glory.... The apostle signifies that glorying was not agreeable to him; he was not fond of it, it was a subject he did not delight to dwell upon; what he had done was by force, and through necessity; he was compelled to it by the boasts of the false apostles: and since he must needs glory in order to stop their mouths;

will glory says he, of things which concern mine infirmities; meaning not his sins, for these cause shame; but his afflictions and sufferings for Christ, under which he was supported, and from which he was delivered by the power of Christ; and that was the reason he chose to glory of them; for though they rendered him mean and despicable in the eyes of the world, yet his bearing them with so much patience, courage, and pleasure, and his many singular deliverances out of them, served greatly to illustrate the power and grace of Christ, and at the same time proved him to be a true and faithful minister of the Gospel; to whom so much honour was vouchsafed, as to suffer shame for the name of Christ, and to be so singularly marked out by him, as the object of his favour, love, and care.

As a Gardening Contractor I sometimes get impaled with prickles and thorns in spite of mostly wearing gloves and taking care to avoid them. Some literal thorns in the flesh can be difficult to extract and are a painful nuisance until such a time as they can be dealt with, if necessary by using a needle.

Our imperfect weakness in continual pressures causes us to rely on God's perfect strength.

2Co 12:9-10 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

The above verse tells us what Paul's thorn in the flesh was.

 

[Lees]

If I may just add some contextual material from the previous chapters, which are sometimes overlooked, we are made aware of the many unpleasant experiences that continually pressed upon Paul.

2Co 11:30 (NJKV) If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.

2Co 11:30 (KJV) If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

Quote from John Gill's Commentary:

If I must needs glory.... The apostle signifies that glorying was not agreeable to him; he was not fond of it, it was a subject he did not delight to dwell upon; what he had done was by force, and through necessity; he was compelled to it by the boasts of the false apostles: and since he must needs glory in order to stop their mouths;

will glory says he, of things which concern mine infirmities; meaning not his sins, for these cause shame; but his afflictions and sufferings for Christ, under which he was supported, and from which he was delivered by the power of Christ; and that was the reason he chose to glory of them; for though they rendered him mean and despicable in the eyes of the world, yet his bearing them with so much patience, courage, and pleasure, and his many singular deliverances out of them, served greatly to illustrate the power and grace of Christ, and at the same time proved him to be a true and faithful minister of the Gospel; to whom so much honour was vouchsafed, as to suffer shame for the name of Christ, and to be so singularly marked out by him, as the object of his favour, love, and care.

As a Gardening Contractor I sometimes get impaled with prickles and thorns in spite of mostly wearing gloves and taking care to avoid them. Some literal thorns in the flesh can be difficult to extract and are a painful nuisance until such a time as they can be dealt with, if necessary by using a needle.

Our imperfect weakness in continual pressures causes us to rely on God's perfect strength.

2Co 12:9-10 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

The above verse tells us what Paul's thorn in the flesh was.

Infirmities certainly speak to our weakness in the flesh. And, without doubt, God can use these to keep us humble before Him.

I am just not convinced that that is the 'thorn in the flesh' Paul is speaking of. But it may be. I am thinking of Job who suffered tremendously, and did not sin against God. Yet his suffering never did result in humbleness. He wouldn't humble himself until God spoke to Him. (Job 42:6)

Paul's thorn was due to a magnificent privilage of experiencing an intimate relation and revelation from God. Could it be that we as believers don't have what Paul had and so that particular thorn, whatever it was, is not needful for us? I don't know.

Lees

 

[Andrew]

He was going blind hence why he wrote his words big

 

[Spindle4]

Infirmities certainly speak to our weakness in the flesh. And, without doubt, God can use these to keep us humble before Him.

I am just not convinced that that is the 'thorn in the flesh' Paul is speaking of. But it may be. I am thinking of Job who suffered tremendously, and did not sin against God. Yet his suffering never did result in humbleness. He wouldn't humble himself until God spoke to Him. (Job 42:6)

Paul's thorn was due to a magnificent privilage of experiencing an intimate relation and revelation from God. Could it be that we as believers don't have what Paul had and so that particular thorn, whatever it was, is not needful for us? I don't know.

Lees

I like to discuss Paul and his place in God's Plan.

Neither he nor the various ekklesias he interacted with had a canon of New Testament Scriptures, nor centuries of doctrinal theses to guide them, and with the revelations, signs, and wonders of the Holy Spirit attending Paul's ministry on the one hand, and the infirmities, reproaches, necessities, persecutions and distresses on the other, his documenting of how he personally arrived at a place of grace in an environment where his singleness, celibacy, and suffering would sometimes be taken as weakness and ineffectiveness, is testimony to the genius that we can now benefit from.

 

[Lees]

I like to discuss Paul and his place in God's Plan.

Neither he nor the various ekklesias he interacted with had a canon of New Testament Scriptures, nor centuries of doctrinal theses to guide them, and with the revelations, signs, and wonders of the Holy Spirit attending Paul's ministry on the one hand, and the infirmities, reproaches, necessities, persecutions and distresses on the other, his documenting of how he personally arrived at a place of grace in an environment where his singleness, celibacy, and suffering would sometimes be taken as weakness and ineffectiveness, is testimony to the genius that we can now benefit from.

Though Paul didn't possess a canon of New Testament Scripture, he was aware that his gospel and doctrine was from the resurrected Christ. (Gal. 1:11-12). And that it was doctrine that had not been kinown before and that he was singularly picked by God to bring it. (Eph. 3:2-5)

And others recognized that what Paul wrote was Scripture. (2 Peter 3:16) So, in this sense Paul had the New Testament doctrine. He also had and knew the Old Testament Scripture.

Lees

 

[Angelina1239]

I think it's good that we are not told what the thorn was else unless we had the exact same condition, we wouldn't consider ours a thorn in the flesh.

I do believe it could have been a health issue. But if it was, it was aggravated by the satanic world, a messenger of satan.

I have also thought, and seldom see this addressed, that it could be some sin of Paul. We do know that Paul had his struggles with sin. (Rom. 7:24) And if it were a sin, all the more reason for Paul to not want to reveal it. And if it were a sin, what greater tool to humble one who had been given such revelation from God. I'm not saying it was...just a thought.

Seems God's response, 'my grace is sufficient for thee', would fit well if it was.

Lees

Hi
What great reflections! Paul was a great dinner before Jesus changed him. So yes, old thoughts of all he had done could well have plagued him. Maybe guilt and depression over how he had persecuted Christians. We all have regrets and though we know we are forgiven, we find it hard to forget what we did.

 

[Angelina1239]

He was going blind hence why he wrote his words big

That is useful to know. Is there evidence of this, or indication through any other sources?

 

[Lees]

Hi
What great reflections! Paul was a great dinner before Jesus changed him. So yes, old thoughts of all he had done could well have plagued him. Maybe guilt and depression over how he had persecuted Christians. We all have regrets and though we know we are forgiven, we find it hard to forget what we did.

Hello

And yes, perhaps a messenger of satan hounded Paul over his past persecution of believers, always bringing it to his mind. I believe Stephens death was haunting him when Christ met him on the road to Damascus. Just an opinion.

Though Paul reached a spiritual plateau most never will, it is interesting that he saw himself as steadinly becoming a worse sinner.

(1 Cor. 15:9) "For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
(Eph. 3:8) "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints...."
(1 Tim. 1:15) "...Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

This makes sense to me. The closer we get to the Lord, the more and worse we see our sins.

Lees

 

[Spindle4]

Though Paul didn't possess a canon of New Testament Scripture, he was aware that his gospel and doctrine was from the resurrected Christ. (Gal. 1:11-12). And that it was doctrine that had not been kinown before and that he was singularly picked by God to bring it. (Eph. 3:2-5)

And others recognized that what Paul wrote was Scripture. (2 Peter 3:16) So, in this sense Paul had the New Testament doctrine. He also had and knew the Old Testament Scripture.

Lees

Yes, my experience is the places of Paul in God's Plan along with those others, James, John, Jude, & Peter, whose epistles have been preserved, cannot be fully appreciated when their material is restricted to liturgical and ceremonial usage, which is why we still study and discuss them.

In these passages below I really do get a sense of Paul's Perils, as I now call them, and see them as a benchmark for my own troubles.

2Co 1:8-11 For we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, of our trouble which came to us in Asia: that we were burdened beyond measure, above strength, so that we despaired even of life. (9) Yes, we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead, (10) who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us, (11) you also helping together in prayer for us, that thanks may be given by many persons on our behalf for the gift granted to us through many.

2Ti 1:15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

2Ti 4:14-18 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him according to his works. (15) You also must beware of him, for he has greatly resisted our words. (16) At my first defense no one stood with me, but all forsook me. May it not be charged against them. (17) But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me, so that the message might be preached fully through me, and that all the Gentiles might hear. Also I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. (18) And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!

 

[Angelina1239]

Hello

And yes, perhaps a messenger of satan hounded Paul over his past persecution of believers, always bringing it to his mind. I believe Stephens death was haunting him when Christ met him on the road to Damascus. Just an opinion.

Though Paul reached a spiritual plateau most never will, it is interesting that he saw himself as steadinly becoming a worse sinner.

(1 Cor. 15:9) "For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
(Eph. 3:8) "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints...."
(1 Tim. 1:15) "...Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

This makes sense to me. The closer we get to the Lord, the more and worse we see our sins.

Lees

Hi
Yes Paul had true humility. I can imagine how guilty he must have been about Stephen's terrible death. He went and preached in the same place, knowing the same could happen to him. That shows immense courage and contrition.

 

[Andrew]

That is useful to know. Is there evidence of this, or indication through any other sources?

I remember Les Feldick commententing on it and he made a good case for failing eyesight.

Couldn't find the episode but this is what he quoted as testimony to the idea that Paul was going blind.

Writing to the Galatians Paul commented..

“See what large letters I use as I write to you…”

..perhaps because he was nearly blind?

Earlier he had written

“…You would have torn out your eyes and given them to me” had that been possible (see Galatians 6:11, and 4:15).

 

[Spindle4]

I remember Les Feldick commententing on it and he made a good case for failing eyesight.

Couldn't find the episode but this is what he quoted as testimony to the idea that Paul was going blind.

Writing to the Galatians Paul commented..

“See what large letters I use as I write to you…”

..perhaps because he was nearly blind?

Earlier he had written

“…You would have torn out your eyes and given them to me” had that been possible (see Galatians 6:11, and 4:15).

Poor old Paul. Add in chains.