Did some people get saved after they died?

[NathanH83]

What does the Bible say?

“Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.”
John 5:25 - Bible Gateway passage: John 5:25 - New King James Version

“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”
Matthew 12:40 - Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 12:40 - New King James Version

Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.” (Now this, “He ascended” —what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:8-10 - Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 4:8-10 - New King James Version

“by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.”
1 Peter 3:19-20 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 3:19-20 - New King James Version

“For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
1 Peter 4:6 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 4:6 - New King James Version

 

[NathanH83]

 

[Spindle4]

What does the Bible say?

“Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.”
John 5:25 - Bible Gateway passage: John 5:25 - New King James Version

“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”
Matthew 12:40 - Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 12:40 - New King James Version

Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.” (Now this, “He ascended” —what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:8-10 - Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 4:8-10 - New King James Version

“by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.”
1 Peter 3:19-20 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 3:19-20 - New King James Version

“For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
1 Peter 4:6 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 4:6 - New King James Version

None of those verses indicate the unsaved dead can be saved before the Day of Judgment.

Let's look at the immediate context of 1 Peter 4:6

1 Peter 4:3-6 (KJV)
3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The gospel was preached to many believers who are now dead. While alive they suffered judgment by unbelievers but lived according to God. Many Christians now dead have been condemned as evil-doers.

The context of 1 Peter 4:6 is explained in this comment:

It is a Christian's duty, not only to keep from gross wickedness, but also from things that lead to sin, or appear evil. The gospel had been preached to those since dead, who by the proud and carnal judgment of wicked men were condemned as evil-doers, some even suffering death. But being quickened to Divine life by the Holy Spirit, they lived to God as his devoted servants. Let not believers care, though the world scorns and reproaches them.—Matthew Henry Concise

So 1 Peter 4:6 doesn't speak of the dead hearing the gospel after they die but rather Peter is speaking about converts now dead at the time who while they were alive were persecuted and judged by those who remained unconverted, so in the flesh.

 

[NathanH83]

None of those verses indicate the unsaved dead can be saved before the Day of Judgment.

Let's look at the immediate context of 1 Peter 4:6

1 Peter 4:3-6 (KJV)
3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The gospel was preached to many believers who are now dead. While alive they suffered judgment by unbelievers but lived according to God. Many Christians now dead have been condemned as evil-doers.

The context of 1 Peter 4:6 is explained in this comment:


So 1 Peter 4:6 doesn't speak of the dead hearing the gospel after they die but rather Peter is speaking about converts now dead at the time who while they were alive were persecuted and judged by those who remained unconverted, so in the flesh.

That’s an interesting interpretation, considering that the previous chapter just talked about Jesus preaching to spirits in prison who were disobedient in the days of Noah.

 

[Josiah]

What does the Bible say?

“Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.”
John 5:25 - Bible Gateway passage: John 5:25 - New King James Version
“For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
1 Peter 4:6 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 4:6 - New King James Version

As Spindle4 pointed out above, 1 Peter 4:6 obviously doesn't speak of the dead hearing the gospel after they die but rather Peter is speaking about converts now dead at the time who while they were alive were persecuted and judged by those who remained unconverted, so in the flesh.

And remember, EVERYONE who first hears His voice are dead. "You were DEAD in your trespasses and sins." EVERYONE is dead before they are given life by the Holy Spirit, who (as we confess in the Creed) is the Lord and GIVER of life."

“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”
Matthew 12:40 - Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 12:40 - New King James Version

This refers to Jesus, not us. "The SON OF MAN' not "Every person"

Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.” (Now this, “He ascended” —what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:8-10 - Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 4:8-10 - New King James Version

“by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.”
1 Peter 3:19-20 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 3:19-20 - New King James Version

Yes, Jesus went to hell... and He preached. Nowhere does it say this preaching was Gospel or that anyone was converted and transferred to heaven. It is true that the Early Church gave some importance to this event (it even made it into the Creed) but WHY is impossible to determine. We simply don't know WHY Jesus went there or WHAT (if anything) it accomplished... and we don't know for a very simple and undeniable reason: the Bible never says.




.

 

[NathanH83]

As Spindle4 pointed out above, 1 Peter 4:6 obviously doesn't speak of the dead hearing the gospel after they die but rather Peter is speaking about converts now dead at the time who while they were alive were persecuted and judged by those who remained unconverted, so in the flesh.

And remember, EVERYONE who first hears His voice are dead. "You were DEAD in your trespasses and sins." EVERYONE is dead before they are given life by the Holy Spirit, who (as we confess in the Creed) is the Lord and GIVER of life."




This refers to Jesus, not us. "The SON OF MAN' not "Every person"




Yes, Jesus went to hell... and He preached. Nowhere does it say this preaching was Gospel or that anyone was converted and transferred to heaven. It is true that the Early Church gave some importance to this event (it even made it into the Creed) but WHY is impossible to determine. We simply don't know WHY Jesus went there or WHAT (if anything) it accomplished... and we don't know for a very simple and undeniable reason: the Bible never says.




.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.”
John 5:25 - Bible Gateway passage: John 5:25 - New King James Version

It sounds to me that Jesus made it crystal clear what his preaching to the dead accomplished.

 

[atpollard]

Yes, Jesus went to hell... and He preached. Nowhere does it say this preaching was Gospel or that anyone was converted and transferred to heaven. It is true that the Early Church gave some importance to this event (it even made it into the Creed) but WHY is impossible to determine. We simply don't know WHY Jesus went there or WHAT (if anything) it accomplished... and we don't know for a very simple and undeniable reason: the Bible never says.

You Lutherans just love your mysteries, don’t you?

A good Baptist would have just offered a speculation.

 

[Spindle4]

That’s an interesting interpretation, considering that the previous chapter just talked about Jesus preaching to spirits in prison who were disobedient in the days of Noah.

There are many commentaries to explore, but some are at variance with each other so it becomes a matter of personally weighing up the most plausible interpretation, hence my views expressed in this thread.

The reference to Jesus preaching is not to be construed as taking place after His death, but rather the "quickening" of His Spirit in Noah so as to preach through him to those who because of their unbelief are now in Hades, that is "prison". The translation is a difficult one because it ends up giving the impression that Jesus went from His crucifixion to preach to those in Hades, but Peter was simply saying those who drowned in the flood are in Hades as of the time of his writing the epistle, and they were preached to by Christ in Noah before the flood. The following earlier verses deal with "the Spirit of Christ being in those who preached prior to His incarnation."

1Pe 1:9-12
(9) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
(10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
(11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
(12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

 

[NathanH83]

There are many commentaries to explore, but some are at variance with each other so it becomes a matter of personally weighing up the most plausible interpretation, hence my views expressed in this thread.

The reference to Jesus preaching is not to be construed as taking place after His death, but rather the "quickening" of His Spirit in Noah so as to preach through him to those who because of their unbelief are now in Hades, that is "prison". The translation is a difficult one because it ends up giving the impression that Jesus went from His crucifixion to preach to those in Hades, but Peter was simply saying those who drowned in the flood are in Hades as of the time of his writing the epistle, and they were preached to by Christ in Noah before the flood. The following earlier verses deal with "the Spirit of Christ being in those who preached prior to His incarnation."

1Pe 1:9-12
(9) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
(10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
(11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
(12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Scripture says that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison.

“by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,”
1 Peter 3:19 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 3:19 - New King James Version

When Noah preached to them, they weren’t in prison.

Why can’t we just believe what scripture says instead of putting our own spin on it?

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Believe this:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"
Hebrews 9:27
No room for post death conversion.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

What would you like to discuss? You quoted several verses, but didn't provide any thoughts on the matter.

 

[NathanH83]

Believe this:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"
Hebrews 9:27
No room for post death conversion.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
-John 5:24-26 - Bible Gateway passage: John 5:24-26 - New King James Version

If you can’t get saved after you die, then why does 1 Peter 4 say that Jesus preached the gospel to the dead?

“They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
-1 Peter 4:5-6 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 4:5-6 - New King James Version

 

[NathanH83]

What would you like to discuss? You quoted several verses, but didn't provide any thoughts on the matter.

The question was whether or not people had gotten saved after they died.

 

[Spindle4]

If you can’t get saved after you die, then why does 1 Peter 4 say that Jesus preached the gospel to the dead?

Scripture says that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison.

“by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,”
1 Peter 3:19 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 3:19 - New King James Version

When Noah preached to them, they weren’t in prison.

Why can’t we just believe what scripture says instead of putting our own spin on it?

The spirits Peter is talking about are those who perished in the flood, whom Jesus preached to through Noah as per the context carried through from 1 Peter 1:10-11
(10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
(11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,

For Edification Of The Body Of Christ The Following Is Quoted From The BIBLE BELIEVER'S COMMENTARY

Christ preached through Noah

He went and preached. As already mentioned, it was Christ who preached, but he preached through Noah. In 2Pe_2:5, Noah is described as a “preacher of righteousness.” It is the same root word used here of Christ's preaching.
To the spirits now in prison. These were the people to whom Noah preached—living men and women who heard the warning of an impending flood and the promise of salvation in the ark. They rejected the message and were drowned in the deluge. They are now disembodied spirits in prison, awaiting the final judgment.
So the verse may be amplified as follows: “by whom (the Holy Spirit) He (Christ) went and preached (through Noah) to the spirits now in prison (Hades).”
But what right do we have to assume that the spirits in prison were the living men in Noah's day? The answer is found in the following verse.
3:20 Here the spirits in prison are unmistakably identified. Who were they? Those who formerly were disobedient. When were they disobedient? When once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared. What was the final outcome? Only a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.


It is well to pause here and remind ourselves of the general flow of thought in this Letter which was written against a general background of persecution. The Christians to whom Peter wrote were suffering because of their life and testimony. Perhaps they wondered why, if the Christian faith was right, they should be suffering rather than reigning. If Christianity was the true faith, why were there so few Christians?
To answer the first question, Peter points to the Lord Jesus. Christ suffered for righteousness' sake, even to the extent of being put to death. But God raised Him from the dead and glorified Him in heaven (see v. 22). The pathway to glory led through the valley of suffering.


Next Peter refers to Noah. For 120 years this faithful preacher warned that God was going to destroy the world with water. His thanks was scorn and rejection. But God vindicated him by saving him and his family through the flood.
Then there is the problem, “If we are right, why are there so few of us?” Peter answers: “There was a time when only eight people in the world were right and all the rest were wrong!” Characteristically in the world's history the majority has not been right. True believers are usually a small remnant, so one's faith should not falter because of the small number of the saved. There were only eight believers in Noah's day; there are millions today.
At the end of verse 20, we read that a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. It is not that they were saved by water; they were saved through the water. Water was not the savior, but the judgment through which God brought them safely.
To properly understand this statement and the verse that follows, we must see the typical meaning of the ark and of the flood. The ark is a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ. The flood of water depicts the judgment of God. The ark was the only way of salvation. When the flood came, only those who were inside were saved; all those on the outside perished. So Christ is the only way of salvation; those who are in Christ are as saved as God Himself can make them. Those on the outside could not be more lost.

 

[NathanH83]

The spirits Peter is talking about are those who perished in the flood, whom Jesus preached to through Noah as per the context carried through from 1 Peter 1:10-11
(10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
(11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,

For Edification Of The Body Of Christ The Following Is Quoted From The BIBLE BELIEVER'S COMMENTARY

Christ preached through Noah

He went and preached. As already mentioned, it was Christ who preached, but he preached through Noah. In 2Pe_2:5, Noah is described as a “preacher of righteousness.” It is the same root word used here of Christ's preaching.
To the spirits now in prison. These were the people to whom Noah preached—living men and women who heard the warning of an impending flood and the promise of salvation in the ark. They rejected the message and were drowned in the deluge. They are now disembodied spirits in prison, awaiting the final judgment.
So the verse may be amplified as follows: “by whom (the Holy Spirit) He (Christ) went and preached (through Noah) to the spirits now in prison (Hades).”
But what right do we have to assume that the spirits in prison were the living men in Noah's day? The answer is found in the following verse.
3:20 Here the spirits in prison are unmistakably identified. Who were they? Those who formerly were disobedient. When were they disobedient? When once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared. What was the final outcome? Only a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.


It is well to pause here and remind ourselves of the general flow of thought in this Letter which was written against a general background of persecution. The Christians to whom Peter wrote were suffering because of their life and testimony. Perhaps they wondered why, if the Christian faith was right, they should be suffering rather than reigning. If Christianity was the true faith, why were there so few Christians?
To answer the first question, Peter points to the Lord Jesus. Christ suffered for righteousness' sake, even to the extent of being put to death. But God raised Him from the dead and glorified Him in heaven (see v. 22). The pathway to glory led through the valley of suffering.


Next Peter refers to Noah. For 120 years this faithful preacher warned that God was going to destroy the world with water. His thanks was scorn and rejection. But God vindicated him by saving him and his family through the flood.
Then there is the problem, “If we are right, why are there so few of us?” Peter answers: “There was a time when only eight people in the world were right and all the rest were wrong!” Characteristically in the world's history the majority has not been right. True believers are usually a small remnant, so one's faith should not falter because of the small number of the saved. There were only eight believers in Noah's day; there are millions today.
At the end of verse 20, we read that a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. It is not that they were saved by water; they were saved through the water. Water was not the savior, but the judgment through which God brought them safely.
To properly understand this statement and the verse that follows, we must see the typical meaning of the ark and of the flood. The ark is a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ. The flood of water depicts the judgment of God. The ark was the only way of salvation. When the flood came, only those who were inside were saved; all those on the outside perished. So Christ is the only way of salvation; those who are in Christ are as saved as God Himself can make them. Those on the outside could not be more lost.

It says Jesus preached to spirits in prison.
They weren’t in prison when Noah preached to them.

 

[Andrew]

I think I sort of see what he is saying, only that Noah's family were the only ones that were saved and that's a bit convenient isn't it?
Maybe through Noah, God got through to some people, so why were they punished? Why didn't they board the ship?

If Peter is saying that God through Noah's opinion of others were eventually saved through Christ and delievered, then why did Christ say that soon they will hear him even though they already heard him through Noah?

Anyway, Noah was technically a gentile, he wasn't Jewish, it must have been His plan to save those who were righteous but not under the law for there was no law at the time, however they were once wicked... it's a difficult passage.. in the end, I believe that Jesus literally preached in hades to the disobedient and delievered an unknown number of them to paradise just as he did the thief on the cross, he wouldn't waste his time preaching to the dead unless some would be saved.

 

[NathanH83]

I think I sort of see what he is saying, only that Noah's family were the only ones that were saved and that's a bit convenient isn't it?
Maybe through Noah, God got through to some people, so why were they punished? Why didn't they board the ship?

If Peter is saying that God through Noah's opinion of others were eventually saved through Christ and delievered, then why did Christ say that soon they will hear him even though they already heard him through Noah?

Anyway, Noah was technically a gentile, he wasn't Jewish, it must have been His plan to save those who were righteous but not under the law for there was no law at the time, however they were once wicked... it's a difficult passage.. in the end, I believe that Jesus literally preached in hades to the disobedient and delievered an unknown number of them to paradise just as he did the thief on the cross, he wouldn't waste his time preaching to the dead unless some would be saved.

That’s the entire point that I’m making. Jesus preached to the dead, meaning to the spirits of dead people in Hades, for the purpose of saving them. Why don’t the rest of the people in this forum believe what the Bible says?

 

[Josiah]

You Lutherans just love your mysteries, don’t you?

A good Baptist would have just offered a speculation.

.... And if it's framed as "MY SPECULATION...." Lutherans generally have no problem with that. There's a word we Lutheran use, a German one, it's "Schwaffle" (I don't know if I'm spelling that right). It basically means to BS. Something we can freely do but place zero importance upon it. My doctrine prof used Luther's "schwaffle" about "doggie heaven" as an example. Humility is big in Lutheranism, probably just an aspect of "The Theology of the Cross."

I've had this discussion a few times with members of my wife's family (all good Calvinists, members of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church).

Your "speculations" (LOL) are appreciated. We disagree at times but I find you thoughtful and faithful, especially on those ctiical foundational issues.




.

 

[Josiah]

That’s the entire point that I’m making. Jesus preached to the dead, meaning to the spirits of dead people in Hades, for the purpose of saving them.

Quote the verse that states, "... in order to save them."

Why don’t the rest of the people in this forum believe what the Bible says?

We will just as soon as you quote where the Bible says "... for the purpose of saving them."

Until then, we're disagreeing with your SPECULATION and your demand that if you personally speculate something, all must agree with you (including God in Heaven above) or we are stupid, ignorant unbelievers. But we know: you see no difference whatsoever between what you speculate and what God states,




.

 

[Andrew]

Quote the verse that states, "... in order to save them."






We will just as soon as you quote where the Bible says "... for the purpose of saving them."

Until then, we're disagreeing with your SPECULATION and your demand that if you personally speculate something, all must agree with you (including God in Heaven above) or we are stupid, ignorant unbelievers. But we know: you see no difference whatsoever between what you speculate and what God states,




.

For what other purpose?