Why does the book of Revelation say that you can anoint your eyes with medicine to cure blindness?

[NathanH83]

Then you will need to quote them in support of any “debate thesis” that Tobit belongs in the Bible as canonical scripture. One cannot simply argue that it has been included in “every” Bible prior to 1500 when the Vulgate Bibles (the official Bible of the Church from the 400’s until the vernacular bibles) clearly states that Tobit is included as an “apocryphal” and not “canonical” literature.

A very specific statement about Tobit, all Bibles prior to 1500 and the canonical status of Tobit in those Bibles was made. Being both relatively disinterested and ignorant of the details, I invested a minimal effort to check the facts for myself and found them being misrepresented … badly. Tobit has been apocryphal since the 400’s and not since the 1500’s. The CHURCH has acknowledged that in its acceptance of the Vulgate and careful copying of the text.

With respect to the ECFs (most of whom are not actually “Apostolic Fathers” in that most never knew any apostle), they believed many things and wrote many things … most of which is sound and some of which is downright heretical. Imagine, the early Christians were not infallible, but they were men just like us (who would have imagined). That is why “Sola Scriptura” is so important and adding to the 66 books in every Christian Bible is such an important matter.

So feel free to prove a “thesis” that Tobit is divinely inspired canonical scripture. I have no objection. However its’ inclusion in the Vulgate Bible with a note that it is “apocryphal“ and not “canonical” is not proof that it was once Biblical Canon. The “every Bible before 1500” argument is misleading.

Since I am not certain that any Bibles (books) existed before 400 AD, I think your “proof” will probably need to come from Church Councils providing a list of canonical scrolls. Beyond that, we are likely exchanging our non-binding opinions for the non-binding opinions of dead men … which proves nothing. However, it is your thesis, so you are free to prove it however you wish. (I am free to question any statements that seem suspicious).

Ok, yea, here it is.

Clearly Jerome is saying that it’s the Hebrews who reject Tobit as scripture, not the Bishops of the church. And that’s the point. There’s already undeniable evidence that the Jews removed things from their Hebrew Scriptures, which the Greek Septuagint preserves. That I already know. The Jews probably removed Tobit as well.

Here’s Jerome’s intro:

Jerome, Prologue to Tobit (2006)

[Translated by Kevin P. Edgecomb]

BEGINNING OF THE PROLOGUE TO TOBIAS

Jerome to the Bishops in the Lord Cromatius and Heliodorus, health!

I do not cease to wonder at the constancy of your demanding. For you demand that I bring a book written in Chaldean words into Latin writing, indeed the book of Tobias, which the Hebrews exclude from the catalogue of Divine Scriptures, being mindful of those things which they have titled Hagiographa. I have done enough for your desire, yet not by my study. For the studies of the Hebrews rebuke us and find fault with us, to translate this for the ears of Latins contrary to their canon. But it is better to be judging the opinion of the Pharisees to displease and to be subject to the commands of bishops. I have persisted as I have been able, and because the language of the Chaldeans is close to Hebrew speech, finding a speaker very skilled in both languages, I took to the work of one day, and whatever he expressed to me in Hebrew words, this, with a summoned scribe, I have set forth in Latin words. I will be paid the price of this work by your prayers, when, by your grace, I will have learned what you request to have been completed by me was worthy.

END OF THE PROLOGUE

Jerome, Prologue to Tobit (2006)

 

[Andrew]

Ok, yea, here it is.

Clearly Jerome is saying that it’s the Hebrews who reject Tobit as scripture, not the Bishops of the church. And that’s the point. There’s already undeniable evidence that the Jews removed things from their Hebrew Scriptures, which the Greek Septuagint preserves. That I already know. The Jews probably removed Tobit as well.

Here’s Jerome’s intro:

Jerome, Prologue to Tobit (2006)

[Translated by Kevin P. Edgecomb]

BEGINNING OF THE PROLOGUE TO TOBIAS

Jerome to the Bishops in the Lord Cromatius and Heliodorus, health!

I do not cease to wonder at the constancy of your demanding. For you demand that I bring a book written in Chaldean words into Latin writing, indeed the book of Tobias, which the Hebrews exclude from the catalogue of Divine Scriptures, being mindful of those things which they have titled Hagiographa. I have done enough for your desire, yet not by my study. For the studies of the Hebrews rebuke us and find fault with us, to translate this for the ears of Latins contrary to their canon. But it is better to be judging the opinion of the Pharisees to displease and to be subject to the commands of bishops. I have persisted as I have been able, and because the language of the Chaldeans is close to Hebrew speech, finding a speaker very skilled in both languages, I took to the work of one day, and whatever he expressed to me in Hebrew words, this, with a summoned scribe, I have set forth in Latin words. I will be paid the price of this work by your prayers, when, by your grace, I will have learned what you request to have been completed by me was worthy.

END OF THE PROLOGUE

Jerome, Prologue to Tobit (2006)

Exactly, Jerome was sent on a mission and he accomplished his mission. He explains that many times in his apologetic letters to Rufinus, that he was given a job to translate from the Hebrew, since books were omitted he likewise omitted them with the statement that they are not found in the current Hebrew contrary to Christian church's traditional CANON.

 

[atpollard]

I care more about what the very first Christians thought.

Jesus never quoted Tobit as Scripture.
The Apostles are never recorded quoting Tobit as scripture.
Paul never mentions Tobit in any of his letters.
Luke makes no reference to Tobit in Acts.

So the very first Christians do not appear to have thought of Tobit at all.
(Does that help?)

 

[atpollard]

Ok, yea, here it is.

Clearly Jerome is saying that it’s the Hebrews who reject Tobit as scripture, not the Bishops of the church. And that’s the point. There’s already undeniable evidence that the Jews removed things from their Hebrew Scriptures, which the Greek Septuagint preserves. That I already know. The Jews probably removed Tobit as well.

Here’s Jerome’s intro:

Jerome, Prologue to Tobit (2006)

[Translated by Kevin P. Edgecomb]

BEGINNING OF THE PROLOGUE TO TOBIAS

Jerome to the Bishops in the Lord Cromatius and Heliodorus, health!

I do not cease to wonder at the constancy of your demanding. For you demand that I bring a book written in Chaldean words into Latin writing, indeed the book of Tobias, which the Hebrews exclude from the catalogue of Divine Scriptures, being mindful of those things which they have titled Hagiographa. I have done enough for your desire, yet not by my study. For the studies of the Hebrews rebuke us and find fault with us, to translate this for the ears of Latins contrary to their canon. But it is better to be judging the opinion of the Pharisees to displease and to be subject to the commands of bishops. I have persisted as I have been able, and because the language of the Chaldeans is close to Hebrew speech, finding a speaker very skilled in both languages, I took to the work of one day, and whatever he expressed to me in Hebrew words, this, with a summoned scribe, I have set forth in Latin words. I will be paid the price of this work by your prayers, when, by your grace, I will have learned what you request to have been completed by me was worthy.

END OF THE PROLOGUE

Jerome, Prologue to Tobit (2006)

Read Jerome’s prologue to Kings.

 

[atpollard]

Did Jerome actually say in his Vulgate that Tobit is Apocryphal? Or just that the Jews believed that? Do you have a reference?

I read Jerome’s intro to Judith, and he claimed that the Nicean council found Judith to be scripture. Did Jerome actually claim that the church rejects Tobit???

Introduction to Kings in the Vulgate Bible by Jerome.

 

[atpollard]

Jerome Introduction to Kings


“This prologue to the Scriptures may be appropriate as a helmeted introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so we may be able to know whatever is outside of these is set aside among the apocrypha. Therefore, Wisdom, which is commonly ascribed to Solomon, and the book of Jesus son of Sirach, and Judith and Tobias, and The Shepherd are not in the canon.”

 

[atpollard]

Clearly Jerome is saying that it’s the Hebrews who reject Tobit as scripture, not the Bishops of the church.

"Therefore, just as the Church also reads the books of Judith, Tobias, and the Maccabees, but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also one may read these two scrolls for the strengthening of the people, (but) not for confirming the authority of ecclesiastical dogmas." -Jerome

 

[atpollard]

deleted.

 

[Andrew]

Jerome Introduction to Kings


“This prologue to the Scriptures may be appropriate as a helmeted introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so we may be able to know whatever is outside of these is set aside among the apocrypha. Therefore, Wisdom, which is commonly ascribed to Solomon, and the book of Jesus son of Sirach, and Judith and Tobias, and The Shepherd are not in the canon.”

No no nope and no.
When he says "to all the books we turn from Hebrew into Latin" he is talking about the books REJECTED by the Hebrew is something to take note of as being Apocryphal books in the Hebrew ONLY, hence the only books he translates from are those "from (found in) Hebrew (thus) into Latin"... Jerome's objective was to ONLY translate the Hebrew regardless of what books were regarded as canonical in the Latin.
BIG difference.

 

[Andrew]

Jesus never quoted Tobit as Scripture.
The Apostles are never recorded quoting Tobit as scripture.
Paul never mentions Tobit in any of his letters.
Luke makes no reference to Tobit in Acts.

So the very first Christians do not appear to have thought of Tobit at all.
(Does that help?)

You can also relate several other OT books to this rationale

 

[NathanH83]

deleted.

You don’t know that Jesus or the disciples never quoted Tobit. All you know is that the books of the New Testament don’t RECORD Jesus or the disciples quoting Tobit. We just don’t have a record of it.

After all, the New Testament doesn’t record them quoting Esther either. That doesn’t mean that they never quoted it or that they never celebrated Purim. So that’s a rather moot point.

In Hebrews 13:2, Paul says that some have entertained angels unaware. There’s no examples of that in the Old Testament. But that’s exactly what happened in Tobit. So that’s a pretty strong indication that Paul might have accepted Tobit.

Also, John’s disciples Polycarp and Ignatius both quoted Tobit in their writings by saying “alms delivers from death” and “almsgiving purges sin” which comes from Tobit 12:9. So it sounds like these guys might have accepted Tobit as scripture. And they knew John personally.

So when you say that it “doesn’t appear” that the first Christians accepted Tobit, that’s not a very honest thing to say. It DOES appear that they accepted Tobit, very much so. There’s plenty of reason to suspect that they might have.

I mean, it’s like someone being identified with the mint green car that the killer had, with a 365 magnum in the backseat, the exact same caliber the killer used. But then you say it “doesn’t appear” that they’re the killer.

Uh, yea, it kind of does appear so. Look at the evidence that’s right in front of you.

 

[atpollard]

You can also relate several other OT books to this rationale

Sure, like “Judith”, but that was not his question, was it.
He wanted to know what the FIRST CHRISTIANS thought of “Tobit”.


Feel free to quote something by the FIRST CHRISTIANS on “Tobit” if you think they had an opinion other than that NOT presented in Scripture. I would love to read it!

 

[atpollard]

You don’t know that Jesus or the disciples never quoted Tobit. All you know is that the books of the New Testament don’t RECORD Jesus or the disciples quoting Tobit. We just don’t have a record of it.

Really, arguments from silence to prove Jesus and the Apostles quoted Tobit as Holy Scripture.
How can anyone argue with that?
I guess Tobit belongs right up there with the Five Books of Moses.

Just quote the FIRST CHRISTIAN that quoted “Tobit” as “it is written” inspired by God Holy Scripture.
That is what was requested.
I CORRECTLY pointed out that the writings of the FIRST CHRISTIANS that we have preserved in our 66 inspired book HOLY BIBLE do NOT quote “Tobit” and NEVER refer to “Tobit” as Holy Scripture.

 

[atpollard]

No no nope and no.

Read the entire introduction to Kings. It is long and I should not have to post a wall of text for you to read for yourself and see that you are 100% mistaken. Jerome is clear about what IS canon and what IS apocrypha. Tobit is NOT CANON. Tobit IS APOCRYPHA. The Introduction to Kings is clear.

Read it if you want. Even Jerome says that. Do not use Tobit as scripture for creating dogma.

Just do not tell me that Tobit was canon until the 1500’s when it suddenly became Apocrypha because that statement is FALSE. It has been Apocrypha since at least 400 and perhaps always was. That remains for YOU to prove one way or the other. I have provided you with the Latin Vulgate “smoking gun” that shatters your 1500 myth. I have no obligation to MAKE you read the truth.

It is presented for anyone to read for themselves.

 

[atpollard]

FYI: Rufus rejected Tobias as canon just like Jerome.

 

[NathanH83]

Really, arguments from silence to prove Jesus and the Apostles quoted Tobit as Holy Scripture.
How can anyone argue with that?
I guess Tobit belongs right up there with the Five Books of Moses.

Just quote the FIRST CHRISTIAN that quoted “Tobit” as “it is written” inspired by God Holy Scripture.
That is what was requested.
I CORRECTLY pointed out that the writings of the FIRST CHRISTIANS that we have preserved in our 66 inspired book HOLY BIBLE do NOT quote “Tobit” and NEVER refer to “Tobit” as Holy Scripture.

That’s not necessarily true, because Polycarp and Ignatius appear to have quoted Tobit. They were disciples of John. And not every time they quote the Bible do they use the phrase “it is written”. More often than not, when referencing scripture, they don’t use that phrase. And honestly I think it’s a bit juvenile to expect them to use the magical words “it is written” every single time they quote or reference scripture. I mean, that expectation kind of makes me think of Walt Disney asking the kids, “Okay, boys and girls, what are the magical words? Bippity boppity boop!” Like, as if it doesn’t work without the magical phrase.

And it’s not an argument of silence either. I can say that Jesus didn’t quote the book of Esther. But that’s not an argument of silence. I’m not arguing that the reason Esther belongs in the Bible is because Jesus never quoted it. That would be ridiculous. All I’m saying is that you can’t discredit a book just because Jesus didn’t quote it. THAT would be an argument from silence. And it’s clearly false, since Esther belongs in the Bible, regardless of no New Testament quotations from it. But since Clement called Esther Sacred Scripture, and since Clement knew Paul, that’s pretty clear evidence the early Christians accepted it, even though some Jews rejected Esther at the time.

 

[NathanH83]

Sure, like “Judith”, but that was not his question, was it.
He wanted to know what the FIRST CHRISTIANS thought of “Tobit”.


Feel free to quote something by the FIRST CHRISTIANS on “Tobit” if you think they had an opinion other than that NOT presented in Scripture. I would love to read it!

You clearly haven’t read Polycarp or Ignatius

 

[NathanH83]

"Therefore, just as the Church also reads the books of Judith, Tobias, and the Maccabees, but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also one may read these two scrolls for the strengthening of the people, (but) not for confirming the authority of ecclesiastical dogmas." -Jerome

Where is this quote coming from? It’s not in the intro to the book of Kings.

 

[Andrew]

FYI: Rufus rejected Tobias as canon just like Jerome.

Read his 2nd letter to Jerome

 

[atpollard]

That’s not necessarily true, because Polycarp and Ignatius appear to have quoted Tobit. They were disciples of John. And not every time they quote the Bible do they use the phrase “it is written”. More often than not, when referencing scripture, they don’t use that phrase. And honestly I think it’s a bit juvenile to expect them to use the magical words “it is written” every single time they quote or reference scripture. I mean, that expectation kind of makes me think of Walt Disney asking the kids, “Okay, boys and girls, what are the magical words? Bippity boppity boop!” Like, as if it doesn’t work without the magical phrase.

1. Provide the quote in context so we can see for ourselves that they viewed it as scripture. The quote I presented from Jerome made his opinion of Tobit clear … interesting to read, but clearly NOT canon.
2. I DO expect very strong evidence to support adding books to the Holy Bible as God Breathed and equal in weight to Genesis or the Gospel of John or Romans for deciding theology and dogma. “Somebody that knew somebody important said something about Tobit” is NOT good enough for me.