The mistake of preaching only happiness

[Tigger]

I think the imperative word is 'only'. Sometimes the Lord blesses me with things like healing and favor and other times He whispers to me 'My grace is sufficient for you." Lately He's been whispering to me.

During the sermon today at church, the pastor boldly stated how he hated that today's American Evangelicals preach only happiness...happiness when you find your purpose, happiness when you find your direction. But, he loves the churches who celebrate All Saints Day because it forces us to look at our mortality. It forces us to realize that we still lives in these sinful bodies where there is suffering and affliction. And of course death.

Too many churches don't want to talk about how God allows us to suffer, yet the NT is filled with the sufferings of the faithful. God didn't promise we'd always be happy here on this earth.

 

[Josiah]

At my parish, we've had several conversations in the Sunday Bible Study about how the whole issue and theology of suffering has largely disappeared - especially in "Evangelicalism." And I recall reading something about how this is revealed in modern sermons and especially songs (contemporary or otherwise)..... suffering, death - hardly even mentioned. It's "I'm happy on the inside, happy on the out" (BTW, the I, ME, SELF thing is a modern shift, too).

Perhaps because people USED to live with death and suffering all around them...... most people LIVED with pains and diseases today either non-existent or easily cured (or at least mitigated)..... people lived with disabilities often caused by trauma..... people died young (including lots of babies, and women in childbirth)..... Luther lived when yet another wave of the Plague was making its way across Europe, sometimes killing one-third of the people. Pain, suffering, death - they were everywhere. Today, people live to ripe old ages.... when I have a headache, I take a pill and it goes away. It's just not on our "radar" to the same extent.

BTW, I think this impacts evangelism, too. For Luther.... for traditional Christianity until VERY recently.... the key part of Christianity had to do with death and whether we then transfer to heaven or hell. Death was a CONSTANT and BIG concern for people because it loomed everywhere, including right in front of them. Today (except for the over 70 group), it's just not on their radar. Nearly all are like teenagers: with a sense of immortality (or at least death is something FAR, FAR in the future - something PERHAPS to think about decades from now, after diagnosed with some terminal disease, not now).



Just my half cent....



Pax



- Josiah

 

[popsthebuilder]

Nothing is outside the power of God. He heals, and guides whom he chooses. He brings the dead in sin to new life under his direction. He heals the blind which could be interpreted literally, but based on the metaphorical nature of the bible in general, healing is of the soul. The blind could be the ignorant and astray. The sight they gain is the direction of God and the vision to follow his will. God can and does heal in a limitless amount of ways. Ones particular healing under God is most likely due to their direction under God in some way, either presently or in the future.
Thanks.
Peace.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

The shift in mood in some churches could be due to the fact that a new covenant is coming. Sacrifice and suffering are of the past and the wavering in Faith. To be pure and rightly guided is to be without pain, fear, shame, envy, greed, division, or any want of the flesh, as the guidance of God is strickly of the narrow path and wholly profitable and benefitial to said follower, and the church of God as a whole. One cannot perceive torment or suffering under God's hand if they are truly rightly guided and follow God without sease.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Brighten04]

I don't understand why believers fear death. I can understand unbelievers fearing death though. Jesus has conquered death and given us eternal life.

 

[Josiah]

I think the imperative word is 'only'. Sometimes the Lord blesses me with things like healing and favor and other times He whispers to me 'My grace is sufficient for you." Lately He's been whispering to me.

:thumbsup:


I confess.... my (relatively short) life has been pretty much one HUGE blessing after another.... pretty much a silver spoon. I did have a major health issue when I was young (I was born by emergency C-Section very early in order to perform a life-saving surgery.... a surgery that later had to be repeated) but other than that..... Nearly perfect family and childhood..... faith..... love. Handsome (!), smart (I graduated from college with honors at the age of 20), excellent health, not even any financial issues...... SO blessed as to almost feel guilty some times. AND...... (to the point of this thread).... AND aware that some of the enriching, deepening, character-developing aspects of hardships are things that haven't so much been a part of my life. Maybe God knows I can't handle that - too weak, too fragile, with too shallow a faith. But I ain't complaining.

"Though I walk through the valley of death, I fear nothing - Your rod and staff comfort me." Never really been there..... BUT I do believe in His presence and promise, His mercy and care. I actually recall that surgery. I was five. I knew what death was - and no one sugar coated anything, I remember being aware I could die (actually, the ODDS of that were fairly slim but I knew nothing of "odds" then) - I probably was told that because I remember thinking about that. I remember the surgeon and that he didn't know my name (he kept calling me Joshua). I remember being in this room (I think it must have been a prep room), the meds starting to take effect and my fighting that as hard as I could..... and thinking, God will take care of me - perhaps in heaven, perhaps in the surgery room; maybe I'd wake up in heaven and maybe in a hospital room.... and feeling at peace with that. Either way, it was okay. I think that's related to what you posted, embracing "my grace is sufficinet for you."


Thanks!


Pax


- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

I think the imperative word is 'only'. Sometimes the Lord blesses me with things like healing and favor and other times He whispers to me 'My grace is sufficient for you." Lately He's been whispering to me.

:thumbsup:


I confess.... my (relatively short) life has been pretty much one HUGE blessing after another.... pretty much a silver spoon. I did have a major health issue when I was young (I was born by emergency C-Section very early in order to perform a life-saving surgery.... a surgery that later had to be repeated) but other than that..... Nearly perfect family and childhood..... faith..... love. Handsome (!), smart (I graduated from college with honors at the age of 20), excellent health, not even any financial issues...... SO blessed as to almost feel guilty some times. AND...... (to the point of this thread).... AND aware that some of the enriching, deepening, character-developing aspects of hardships are things that haven't so much been a part of my life. Maybe God knows I can't handle that - too weak, too fragile, with too shallow a faith. But I ain't complaining.

"Though I walk through the valley of death, I fear nothing - Your rod and staff comfort me." Never really been there..... BUT I do believe in His presence and promise, His mercy and care. I actually recall that surgery. I was five. I knew what death was - and no one sugar coated anything, I remember being aware I could die (actually, the ODDS of that were fairly slim but I knew nothing of "odds" then) - I probably was told that because I remember thinking about that. I remember the surgeon and that he didn't know my name (he kept calling me Joshua). I remember being in this room (I think it must have been a prep room), the meds starting to take effect and my fighting that as hard as I could..... and thinking, God will take care of me - perhaps in heaven, perhaps in the surgery room; maybe I'd wake up in heaven and maybe in a hospital room.... and feeling at peace with that. Either way, it was okay. I think that's related to what you posted, embracing "my grace is sufficinet for you."


Thanks!


Pax


- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

I don't understand why believers fear death. I can understand unbelievers fearing death though. Jesus has conquered death and given us eternal life.

Tell someone they have cancer and they immediately panic. It takes time to get into the mindset that it's okay to die when death is right at your door. Were you ever about to crash in a car accident? Weren't you afraid?

 

[Brighten04]

Tell someone they have cancer and they immediately panic. It takes time to get into the mindset that it's okay to die when death is right at your door. Were you ever about to crash in a car accident? Weren't you afraid?

I have been in two accidents in my life. The first I was more angry than afraid as the other guy ran a red light and turned in front of me. The next one was a one car, just me, when the wind got into the plastic bag of the dress hanging in the back seat blew up across my face and I hit a ditch. It happened so fast I did not have any feelings at first, then came anger( I was on my way to a wedding as the matron of honor) then fear when I finally had time to look at the damage. I didn't think about death though neither time.

 

[tango]

So you are saying Here that the Word is not true because David's son died. I don't need a better defense. I believe the Word of our Father. And I don't pick and choose. When the people sinned it brought the curse. Read the Law.

So when David wrote "who heals all your diseases" are you saying he should have written "who heals all your diseases as long as you are sinless"?

First, I made no cheap jibes. And I am sorry you took my words that way.

I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to interpret "wake up from your slumber". Perhaps you could enlighten me?

Sometimes I speak scripture when I talk or type. God's word speaks for itself.

If that's the case then quoting chapter and verse is always helpful. Sometimes a Bible verse is easily recognisable but if you want to present something as a quote from Scripture rather than your own thoughts it doesn't hurt to indicate where it came from. If nothing else it allows people to check the reference, compare versions, read context etc.

If my interpretation lacks merit, it is because I believe what the Word says.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. The whole point of an interpretation lacking merit is because of a disagreement over just what the Word does actually say. For example, if you take Job 22:28 in isolation you could quite reasonable say "God's word says that if you declare something it will be established for you". If you read the verse in context it says something else entirely. But to insist that it means you can declare something and have it established for you isn't "believing what the Word says", it's cherry picking a verse and taking it out of context. The person with an opposing viewpoint isn't "believing what the Word says" any less, they are still believing what the Word says but interpreting it differently.

As far as my pulling verses from another thread, I didn't. Which thread?

The "for those who have not been healed" thread, where Timothy was discussed at some length and nobody gave a good explanation as to why he wasn't told to go see the elders.

Where in the Bible does it say Timothy was not healed? Timothy didn't need the elders. He only needed to drink a little wine to fix his digestive issues. The enzymes and probiotics in wine prevent a lot of gas and constipation. An old proverb says an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

The fact he suffered "frequent infirmities" suggest it wasn't a one-off bout of indigestion. Had Paul written something like "I hear you ate some dodgy goat, try drinking some wine to clear up the after-effects" that would be something else. But "frequent infirmities" suggest something ongoing.

James didn't write "is any among you sick? Take them to the doctors and if that doesn't work take them to the elders". He didn't write "Are you sick? Try taking a little wine, but if it doesn't clear up go see the elders".

I am sure that if Timothy had been down sick, Paul himself would have anointed him with the oil and prayed the prayer of faith over him.

This is little more than speculation to fit around an interpretation.

 

[tango]

The shift in mood in some churches could be due to the fact that a new covenant is coming. Sacrifice and suffering are of the past and the wavering in Faith. To be pure and rightly guided is to be without pain, fear, shame, envy, greed, division, or any want of the flesh, as the guidance of God is strickly of the narrow path and wholly profitable and benefitial to said follower, and the church of God as a whole. One cannot perceive torment or suffering under God's hand if they are truly rightly guided and follow God without sease.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Huh?

I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly here - are you trying to say that if we follow God closely we will live on this earth without pain or any want of the flesh?

 

[tango]

I don't understand why believers fear death. I can understand unbelievers fearing death though. Jesus has conquered death and given us eternal life.

One can fear the process of dying even without fearing the end of the journey.

 

[Tigger]

The Lord seems to discipline my character defects rather quickly. My life's been almost an Earthly purgatory. That's why I relate to theology of the cross so intimately.

:thumbsup:


I confess.... my (relatively short) life has been pretty much one HUGE blessing after another.... pretty much a silver spoon. I did have a major health issue when I was young (I was born by emergency C-Section very early in order to perform a life-saving surgery.... a surgery that later had to be repeated) but other than that..... Nearly perfect family and childhood..... faith..... love. Handsome (!), smart (I graduated from college with honors at the age of 20), excellent health, not even any financial issues...... SO blessed as to almost feel guilty some times. AND...... (to the point of this thread).... AND aware that some of the enriching, deepening, character-developing aspects of hardships are things that haven't so much been a part of my life. Maybe God knows I can't handle that - too weak, too fragile, with too shallow a faith. But I ain't complaining.

"Though I walk through the valley of death, I fear nothing - Your rod and staff comfort me." Never really been there..... BUT I do believe in His presence and promise, His mercy and care. I actually recall that surgery. I was five. I knew what death was - and no one sugar coated anything, I remember being aware I could die (actually, the ODDS of that were fairly slim but I knew nothing of "odds" then) - I probably was told that because I remember thinking about that. I remember the surgeon and that he didn't know my name (he kept calling me Joshua). I remember being in this room (I think it must have been a prep room), the meds starting to take effect and my fighting that as hard as I could..... and thinking, God will take care of me - perhaps in heaven, perhaps in the surgery room; maybe I'd wake up in heaven and maybe in a hospital room.... and feeling at peace with that. Either way, it was okay. I think that's related to what you posted, embracing "my grace is sufficinet for you."


Thanks!


Pax


- Josiah

 

[popsthebuilder]

Huh?

I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly here - are you trying to say that if we follow God closely we will live on this earth without pain or any want of the flesh?

Eventually...yes.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Brighten04]

Hi Tango. Lam has asked for her thread back. We took it off topic so I think that is fair for us not to continue this argument.

 

[tango]

Hi Tango. Lam has asked for her thread back. We took it off topic so I think that is fair for us not to continue this argument.

OK, that works for me. Since there's already at least one thread about healing we can move over there instead.

 

[Hammster]

Paul was not healed of his affliction. Whether it was sickness or whatever, there was no healing.

This thread wasn't supposed to be about healing though. Could we get back to the mistake of preaching only happiness?

It would appear that some think you cannot be happy if you are afflicted, and that the affliction must be relieved to enjoy God.

Paul would disagree.

10 I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now at length you have revived your concern for me. You were indeed concerned for me, but you had no opportunity.
11 Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content.
12 I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need.
13 I can do all things through him who strengthens me. - Philippians 4:10-13

 

[tango]

Another thing Paul wrote:

Php 4:11-13 NKJV Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content: (12) I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. (13) I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.


He knew what it was to have plenty, he knew what it was to have need. He knew a full belly, he knew hunger. Crucially, he learned to be content whatever life threw at him.

One interesting question is whether we would truly seek God if it would cost us everything we hold dear. Would we seek God if it cost everything we had and all we received in exchange was to know God? If so, we truly value God above all else. If we seek God for what we can get out of the relationship, we're customers rather than disciples. If the only reason we follow God is because we hope for perfect health, or financial prosperity, or whatever other material pleasures we may be seeking, God becomes little more than a cosmic vending machine. If we seek God above all else we won't care if we are rich or poor, healthy or sick, strong or weak, because we have something that is more valuable than anything this world can offer us.

(Disclaimer - it's a lot easier to say that than it is to live it!)

 

[Hammster]

Another thing Paul wrote:

Php 4:11-13 NKJV Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content: (12) I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. (13) I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.


He knew what it was to have plenty, he knew what it was to have need. He knew a full belly, he knew hunger. Crucially, he learned to be content whatever life threw at him.

One interesting question is whether we would truly seek God if it would cost us everything we hold dear. Would we seek God if it cost everything we had and all we received in exchange was to know God? If so, we truly value God above all else. If we seek God for what we can get out of the relationship, we're customers rather than disciples. If the only reason we follow God is because we hope for perfect health, or financial prosperity, or whatever other material pleasures we may be seeking, God becomes little more than a cosmic vending machine. If we seek God above all else we won't care if we are rich or poor, healthy or sick, strong or weak, because we have something that is more valuable than anything this world can offer us.

(Disclaimer - it's a lot easier to say that than it is to live it!)

Here's a note from the MacArthur Study Bible on that passage:

Phil. 4:13 I can do all things. Paul uses a Greek verb that means “to be strong” or “to have strength” (cf. Acts 19:16; 20; James 5:16). He had strength to withstand “all things” (Phil. 4:11–12), including both difficulty and prosperity in the material world. through him who strengthens me. The Greek word for strengthen means “to put power in.” Because believers are in Christ (Gal. 2:20), he infuses them with his strength to sustain them until they receive some provision (Eph. 3:16–20; 2 Cor. 12:10).

 

[psalms 91]

AMEN! When will our sisters and brothers understand eternal life? .
John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Speak life into every situation and trust Our Father. Jesus went around healing people.

Matthew 4:23
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 9:35
And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Sickness belongs to our Father's adversary,and so does death. But I have found that people will fight to be sick.So sad. They will hug sickness to them like a coat. But that is what they have gotten comfortable with and have made the spirit of infirmity a familiar friend.

All means all. The Bible says
Psalm 103King James Version (KJV)

103 Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.

2 Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:

3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;

5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.

6 The Lord executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed.

Truth