The False Doctrine of Purgatory

Josiah

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why does it need be in the Bible?

where does the Bible say all the truths revealed by Christ are found in scripture?

What is the source of truth or the rule of faith for Christians?


1. Many Christians reject your premise that if a teacher insists that he himself can't be wrong so he cannot be wrong when he himself teaches such. Many find that circular and egotistical and an extreme example of "lording it over others as the Gentiles do" and they note that this serves only one purpose: to evade accountability and the issue of Truth. Many look at the Catechism of your church and see this in an extreme and radical form (for example, CCC 85 and 87). It's also seen in the LDS, Jehovah Witnesses and some other groups.

2. Sola Scriptura does not teach that Truth is limited to the pages of Scripture (such never says that 2+2=4 but it does). Sola Scriptura is the PRACTICE of using the inerrant, canonical, objective/knowable inscripturated words of God as the rule/norm for evaluating dogmas (especially disputed ones) among believers. Catholicism and Mormonism passionately reject this practice because both insist that it itself exclusively cannot be wrong so accountability is irrelevant - indeed, both go even further than that, insisting that Scripture is right WHEN it is interpreted to agree with it itself and that it itself alone is the ONLY authoritative interpreter of Scripture in order to insure that it is interpreted to agree with itself (even if the words don't). Many Christians find that very, very flawed and dangerous: so does the RCC and LDS it's just that those churches insist that while it is a horrible rubric for any other, it's perfect for self alone.



To the thread: This dogma (unique to the singular Catholic Church - no other church teaches this) has ZERO support in Scripture or Tradition. The singulsr RCC just made it up. Now, in the Eastern Orthodox Church, they note that Scripture suggests that nothing "impure" may enter heaven and so THEORIZE (no doctrine, no dogma!) that at the microsecond of death (less than that!).... as we are carried into heaven... SOMEHOW, in some entirely unknown and mysterious way, we are "purified" (whatever that entails). NO place.... NO time.... NO punishment... a miracle performed entirely by God in the microsecond we enter heaven. Now, I can live with that THEORY. But of course, Purgatory is MUCH, MUCH more than that.... and it ain't theory but dogma (since 1274). I find Purgatory to not only be entirely baseless but undermining the truth of Jesus as the Savior.




what is the pillar and ground of truth?

There is no Scripture that states, "It's the Bishops of the singular Catholic Church that Mark accepts as valid - what they say is just to be swallowed whole - with docidlity - cuz they insist on it."





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Faithhopeandcharity

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God's church is made up of those who believe in the Savior.
The spiritual church is an old heresy
The church is a body physical
The mystical body of Christ with spiritual and supernatural aspects
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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Virtues are not natural, but supernatural helps from God!

The doctrine of demons are filled with the vices of the demons!

Humility and obedience are the virtues most forgotten and ignored, many who claim the name of Christ are not practicing His virtues

The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Truth is revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles) Jude 1:3 then proposed by the church! Matt 28:19 gal 3:23


Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14
Dan 2:44 Isa 2:2 Micah 4:1 fulfilled in matt 5:14

matt 16:18-19 shall not prevail
Matt 18:17 hear the truth from the church
1 Tim 3:15 the church is the pillar and ground of truth.

Faith ascents & never protests or rebels!
Spiritual Pride protests & is always in rebellion

The nature of spiritual pride is rebellion!
Spiritual pride must protest, and must be right!

Christ and His one true church cannot be right or my self-righteous personal interpretation base on spiritual pride and private judgement must be wrong, and that is unacceptable!

Truth must be revealed by God, and taught by the church, proposed for our belief, we must be instructed!
Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 Acts 8:31 Lk 10:16 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42


Nature of doctrine:

Truth or doctrine MUST be Revealed by God And Proposed by the church for belief, not spiritual pride and self-righteous private judgement!
Claim: “scripture alone”
It’s really just the ugly repugnant pride!
It’s no faith at all only spiritual pride and self-righteous private judgement!
They Hope in creatures not in God!

It is unlawful to refuse to accept a truth revealed by God!

Matt 28:19 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Truth matters! It is revealed by God and therefore CANNOT be changed!
The church likewise is founded by Christ and therefore CANNOT be reformed!

Faith hope and charity! 1 cor 13:13
Three are eternal, and the greatest is charity!
“Faith alone”? Never faith, hope, & charity are inseparable!
If salvation was by faith alone then the greatest would be faith, but as even “all faith“ without charity avails nothing! 1 cor 13:2

We must be taught by christ thru his church
Lk 1:4 matt 28:19-20 Jn 20:21-23
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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Psalm 66:12 (RSV) Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.

This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen and St. Ambrose, who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)

St. Augustine, in the 20th Book of his City of God, chapter 25, interprets this as purgatory. The preceding verse refers to the saved (“called holy” and “recorded for life”) and verses 5 and 6 describe the repose of the blessed.

Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)

St. Jerome considered this verse a clear proof of purgatory.

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and St. Jerome all thought this was a description of purgatory.

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it.

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.

St. Francis de Sales commented:

It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgment of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory. (The Catholic Controversy translated by Henry B. Mackey, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1989 [orig. 1596], 373)

Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

The “prison” alluded to in verse 25 is purgatory, according to Tertullian, St. Cyprian, Origen, St. Ambrose, and St. Jerome, while the “penny” represents the most minor sins that one commits.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be, and this must be in purgatory: precisely the interpretation of St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, and St. Bernard, among others.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


This is a clear and obvious allusion to purgatory. Thus thought St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, Pope St. Gregory the Great, Origen, and St. Augustine, who wrote with his usual insight:

ecause it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)

Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman observed (as an Anglican):

Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The abundance of scriptural evidence for purgatory led to a consensus among the Church fathers: summarized by Protestant church historian Philip Schaff:

These views of the middle state in connection with prayers for the dead show a strong tendency to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. (History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, “Ante-Nicene Christianity: A. D. 100-325,” 5th edition, New York: 1889; ch. 12, sec. 156, 604-606)

Indulgences are graces merited by the passion and blood of Christ.

They have nothing to do with sin or salvation, (mercy) upon true repentance but the punishment due to sin. (Justice)

Example
A father may forgive (mercy) his son for hitting a ball thru the window, but the son will have work and pay for the window. (Justice)
 

Lamb

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The spiritual church is an old heresy
The church is a body physical
The mystical body of Christ with spiritual and supernatural aspects

It's not an old heresy, it's the truth of what has been since God created religion.
 

Albion

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Lamb

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why does it need be in the Bible?

where does the Bible say all the truths revealed by Christ are found in scripture?

What is the source of truth or the rule of faith for Christians?

what is the pillar and ground of truth?

The Bible is the Word of God. Do you deny that?
 

Albion

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What is the pillar and ground of truth?
According to the Bible, it's the "household of God."

You called it the "spiritual" church' and then denied that there is such a thing.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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It's not an old heresy, it's the truth of what has been since God created religion.
The church is the new covenant faith alone cannot make you a member of Christ but thee catholic faith and baptism Mk 16:16 acts 2:38-39 acts 8:36-38 1 pet 3:20-21
 

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The church is the new covenant faith alone cannot make you a member of Christ but thee catholic faith and baptism Mk 16:16 acts 2:38-39 acts 8:36-38 1 pet 3:20-21

Your church wasn't even created yet when those verses were written so you really should start looking at context.
 

Josiah

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Mk 16:16 acts 2:38-39 acts 8:36-38 1 pet 3:20-21


Thanks for again pointing out that Scripture says NOTHING about the unique, new dogma of your singular church of PURGATORY.

Thanks for again pointing out that Scripture says NOTHING about your church. Not a word.

Thanks for proving that.



A blessed Advent season to you and yours....


Josiah




.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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That's what every cult says. Don't invite yourself into their company with such a comment,
Faith and baptism Mk 16:26 acts 2:38-39 promise made by God is a sacred oath or sacrament ez 36:25-27 1 pet 3:20-21
God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38


Christian ritual of baptism:
Immersion, sprinkling, pour pure water over the forehead three time with the words, I baptize thee in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit! Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 Matt 28:19 Acts 2:38-39 Acts 8:36-38 Acts 22:16
1 Pet 3:21

Proper intention: to make a new creature in Christ, to put on Christ, initiation into the new covenant of grace
Matter: pure water
Form: the words

Born again! Born from above!


'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)


Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by baptism!
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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The Bible is the Word of God. Do you deny that?
Of course not but Christ established a church to teach the world

we must be taught instructed in thee faith Lk 1:4 matt 28:19 acts 8:31

If the apostles taught “faith alone” how does the eunuch know about baptism?
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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According to the Bible, it's the "household of God."

You called it the "spiritual" church' and then denied that there is such a thing.
It is the body (physical) of Christ, it has spiritual and supernatural aspects
 

Josiah

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Mk 16:26 acts 2:38-39 ez 36:25-27 1 pet 3:20-21 gen 2:7 Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 Matt 28:19 Acts 2:38-39 Acts 8:36-38 Acts 22:16
1 Pet 3:21 (John 6:27) 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Eph 1:13
gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20


Thanks for again proving that Scripture says NOTHING about the new, unique dogma of your singular church: Purgatory.

And nothing about your church.

Your point has been made. VERY clearly and undeniably.

Thank you.


A very blessed Advent season for you and yours....


- Josiah




.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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Your church wasn't even created yet when those verses were written so you really should start looking at context.
News flash: I don’t have a church, only Christ does!

the church wrote the New Testament
 

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Of course not but Christ established a church to teach the world

we must be taught instructed in thee faith Lk 1:4 matt 28:19 acts 8:31

If the apostles taught “faith alone” how does the eunuch know about baptism?

The church consists of believers throughout the world.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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God wrote it.
God did not write it, it’s God’s word and the HS inspired it but men wrote it, the church the apostles it’s God breathed and so are the apostles Jn 20:21-23
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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The church consists of believers throughout the world.
Believers are not even Christians
But only catechumens the church is the body (physical) of Christ by faith and baptism

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
 
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