In what ways does the Apocrypha point to Jesus as Savior?

[Andrew]

Let's say every book listed in Article 6 of the 39 Articles of the singular Anglican Church (the "Bible" Nathan says is genuine - no other and no less books), let's say every one of them can be documented to have been written on July 17, 38 AD (by our calendar), would that be PROOF that ergo those exact books (and only those books) may be read and may be put in tomes with "BIBLE" written on the cover imitation gold letters? And what if some other book, say "Julius goes to the circus" was also written on that date, would it ERGO be such Scripture and Anglicans ripped it out of the Bible?

If not, then I fail to see the point of "it's just GOTTA be inerrant, inspired, fully canonical, inscripturated words of God since it was written in year "x."



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What if it contains accurate prophecy?

 

[Josiah]

The Gospel of Thomas points to Jesus..... it is therefore inerrant, fully canonical, inscripturated words of God that legally must be included in every book that has the word "BIBLE" written on the cover in genuine imitation gold letters? The Book of Mormon points to Jesus. Is it thus Scripture?



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What if it contains accurate prophecy?

So, only books that contain "accurate prophecy" are inerrant, fully canonical, inscripturated words of God? Can you quote for me accurate prophecy fulfilled in 3 John?

So any book that contains "accurate prophecy:" is THUS innerant, fully-canonical, inscripturated words of God? How many books predicted the American Civil War? World War 2? The election of Joe Biden in 2020? Are they all THUS inerrant, fully-canonical, inscripturated words of God and MUST be in every tome published with the word "BIBLE" on the cover?



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[NathanH83]

Book of Wisdom again? Any other apocryphal books point to Jesus as Savior?

Before Andrew gives examples from the Apocrypha how they point to Jesus as savior, you first should give a rundown on how every single book of the Old Testament points to Jesus as savior. Lead by example.

 

[Andrew]

The Gospel of Thomas points to Jesus..... it is therefore inerrant, fully canonical, inscripturated words of God that legally must be included in every book that has the word "BIBLE" written on the cover in genuine imitation gold letters? The Book of Mormon points to Jesus. Is it thus Scripture?



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So, only books that contain "accurate prophecy" are inerrant, fully canonical, inscripturated words of God? Can you quote for me accurate prophecy fulfilled in 3 John?

So any book that contains "accurate prophecy:" is THUS innerant, fully-canonical, inscripturated words of God? How many books predicted the American Civil War? World War 2? The election of Joe Biden in 2020? Are they all THUS inerrant, fully-canonical, inscripturated words of God and MUST be in every tome published with the word "BIBLE" on the cover?



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You are using POST Messianic writings to discredit a prophetic OT "Apocrypha" book...?

Don't put words in my mouth, I never said any thing close to what you are implying.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

My point was that Wisdom, Baruch and 2 Esdras hold weight of messianic prophecy pointing to Jesus Christ.. post Messianic [A.D.] writings (NT, gnostic text, Book of Mormon, Cat in the Hat etc..) can't post predict or prophecy past events.. that's an oxymoron.

Baruch predicted God in the flesh walking among men, Wisdom predicted the crucifixion of the Son of God and the divine judgment of the souls who deny him, 2nd Esdras predicted God sending his Son the Messiah to the world.

 

[NathanH83]

You are using POST Messianic writings to discredit a prophetic OT "Apocrypha" book...?

Don't put words in my mouth, I never said any thing close to what you are implying.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

My point was that Wisdom, Baruch and 2 Esdras hold weight of messianic prophecy pointing to Jesus Christ.. post Messianic [A.D.] writings (NT, gnostic text, Book of Mormon, Cat in the Hat etc..) can't post predict or prophecy past events.. that's an oxymoron.

Baruch predicted God in the flesh walking among men, Wisdom predicted the crucifixion of the Son of God and the divine judgment of the souls who deny him, 2nd Esdras predicted God sending his Son the Messiah to the world.

The book of Mormon comment was such a low blow. That’s a book of religious fiction that was invented by Joseph Smith in the 1800’s, and didn’t exist before that. It has no business even being mentioned in this thread.

 

[Andrew]

The book of Mormon comment was such a low blow. That’s a book of religious fiction that was invented by Joseph Smith in the 1800’s, and didn’t exist before that. It has no business even being mentioned in this thread.

Right? I mean at least the Quran predicted ISIS and Al Quida

 

[Josiah]

The book of Mormon comment was such a low blow. That’s a book of religious fiction that was invented by Joseph Smith in the 1800’s, and didn’t exist before that. It has no business even being mentioned in this thread.

Nathan, Andrew -


The point was a book that points to Jesus. I merely pointed out there are MILLIONS of books that point to Jesus - I find that an insufficient reason to declare that THEREFORE the book is inerrant, fully canonical, inscripturated words of God that legally must be included in any tome published by any publishing house that has the word "BIBLE" on the front cover.

Same point with the "if it contains accurate history" and "if it contains a prediction that came true."

Not rocket science. Just exposing the obviously bad apologetics at play.



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[Andrew]

Nathan, Andrew -


The point was a book that points to Jesus. I merely pointed out there are MILLIONS of books that point to Jesus - I find that an insufficient reason to declare that THEREFORE the book is inerrant, fully canonical, inscripturated words of God that legally must be included in any tome published by any publishing house that has the word "BIBLE" on the front cover.

Same point with the "if it contains accurate history" and "if it contains a prediction that came true."

Not rocket science. Just exposing the obviously bad apologetics at play.



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Books that point to Jesus BEFORE the NT

 

[Lamb]

Before Andrew gives examples from the Apocrypha how they point to Jesus as savior, you first should give a rundown on how every single book of the Old Testament points to Jesus as savior. Lead by example.

Actually, No, I don't.

That's not how this works. I ask a question and you provide the answer. You don't ask for proof from somewhere because you cannot answer the question to complete satisfaction.

 

[Lamb]

Guys, there's a huge difference of a book making note that Jesus exists and pointing to Him as SAVIOR.

 

[Josiah]

Books that point to Jesus BEFORE the NT

So... to be inerrant, fully-canonical, inscripturated words of God a book MUST have been written before Jesus was born. Got it. You just threw out the entire New Testament. I wonder if you just threw out some OT books too. Funny how these rules kept being made - then abandoned.




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[Andrew]

So... to be inerrant, fully-canonical, inscripturated words of God a book MUST have been written before Jesus was born. Got it. You just threw out the entire New Testament. I wonder if you just threw out some OT books too. Funny how these rules kept being made - then abandoned.




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Again that is NOT what I meant.

Books that contain prophecy of Jesus are obviously inspired, that does not mean that the ones that do not contain prophecy aren't.

Wisdom is divinely inspired because it contains prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion.

 

[NathanH83]

Actually, No, I don't.

That's not how this works. I ask a question and you provide the answer. You don't ask for proof from somewhere because you cannot answer the question to complete satisfaction.

If you can’t show how every single Old Testament book points to Jesus as savior, then aren’t you holding the Apocryphal books to a higher standard than the other books of the Bible?

How does Ecclesiastes point to Jesus as savior? How about Song of Solomon?

I mean, seriously. Just to give an example here, 2 Kings 18 talks about the Assyrian captivity. Then Tobit gives us a story about one of those captives. You ask how Tobit points to Christ. Well, how does 2 Kings 18 point to Christ? Aren’t there a lot of books in the Bible that are mainly just telling us the significant events in Israel’s history, and their relationship with God through those events? Why does every single Old Testament book in your eyes have to have some awe-inspiring Messianic prophecy??? What are you even trying to get at?

Most of the time the New Testament quotes messianic prophecies, the vast majority of the time they’re quoting Psalms, Isaiah, or Deuteronomy. It’s mainly those 3. There’s a few other books quoted, like Genesis, Zechariah, Micah. But there’s still over a DOZEN or so Old Testament books that are NEVER quoted word for word in the New Testament, or used to point to Jesus as Messiah. One such example is Esther. Another example is Ruth or Judges. They’re not quoted word for word, or used in any way to prove Jesus to be the Messiah or savior.

So…. What’s your point?

The real question should be whether or not there’s any evidence that the disciples told the early church that these “apocryphal” books are scripture. Or whether the New Testament references or alludes to some of the Apocryphal books in ANY way at all.

 

[NathanH83]

Guys, there's a huge difference of a book making note that Jesus exists and pointing to Him as SAVIOR.

And? What’s your point?

 

[Lamb]

And? What’s your point?

The point is that giving sources that might appear as if it's about Jesus is not what my thread is about. I was specifics for His being the Savior and how or why.

 

[Andrew]

.

 

[Andrew]

The point is that giving sources that might appear as if it's about Jesus is not what my thread is about. I was specifics for His being the Savior and how or why.

Can you specify any sources we cited that "may appear as if it's about Jesus"?

1. God came to Earth as the Word of God manifest and conversed with men. [Baruch]
2. Sinners humilate and torture the Son of God to death for rebuking the laws that they have transgressed not knowing that this will condemn them to a grim and eternal fate. [Wisdom 2]
3. God is sending his Son the Christ to gather His people. [2nd Esdras]

However we didn't even mention Maccabees, so maybe you can use this as a "may point" example

Jews who overcame tribulation, even tho by torture and death did so in direct response of Gods promise that His anointed Prophet spoken of from Moses to Malachi was soon to come and resurrect the dead, Paul uses them as examples of enduring the faith, Jesus attended their dedication and His very Revelation to John expresses an amplification of the things recorded by the Maccabees. The statue of Satan (Zeus) was seated at Pergamon in alter installed by Antiochus who demanded worship and Temple rites of swine sacrifice to be dedicated to or be tortured and killed... this was just a dress rehearsal for what we should expect in the end time

 

[Lamb]

Can you specify any sources we cited that "may appear as if it's about Jesus"?

1. God came to Earth as the Word of God manifest and conversed with men. [Baruch]
2. Sinners humilate and torture the Son of God to death for rebuking the laws that they have transgressed not knowing that this will condemn them to a grim and eternal fate. [Wisdom 2]
3. God is sending his Son the Christ to gather His people. [2nd Esdras]

However we didn't even mention Maccabees, so maybe you can use this as a "may point" example

Jews who overcame tribulation, even tho by torture and death did so in direct response of Gods promise that His anointed Prophet spoken of from Moses to Malachi was soon to come and resurrect the dead, Paul uses them as examples of enduring the faith, Jesus attended their dedication and His very Revelation to John expresses an amplification of the things recorded by the Maccabees. The statue of Satan (Zeus) was seated at Pergamon in alter installed by Antiochus who demanded worship and Temple rites of swine sacrifice to be dedicated to or be tortured and killed... this was just a dress rehearsal for what we should expect in the end time

Baruch doesn't say anything about Christ as Savior.
Wisdom...yeah, still not convinced it wasn't written AFTER Christ's death.
Esdras doesn't say anything about the Savior? Can you point it out specifically?

 

[NathanH83]

Baruch doesn't say anything about Christ as Savior.
Wisdom...yeah, still not convinced it wasn't written AFTER Christ's death.
Esdras doesn't say anything about the Savior? Can you point it out specifically?

You clearly haven’t read 2 Esdras.

 

[Lamb]

You clearly haven’t read 2 Esdras.

It's online.

Here's what I found about it:

2 Esdras - Conservapedia

www.conservapedia.com

The Greek form of this book in the Septuagint does not have the first two chapters of 2 Esdras which appear in the Latin version of the book. For this reason most scholars hold Chapters 1 and 2 of the Latin and English versions to be of Christian origin (probably second century), because they assert God's rejection of the Jews and speak of the Messiah in Christian terms: they describe the rejection of the Jews in favor of the Christians in words resembling Christian theological language of the second and third centuries.

"I gathered you as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but now, what shall I do to you? I will cast you out from my presence." (1:30) —Compare Matthew 23:37; Luke13:34; Deuteronomy 32:10-18.

This section also contains a vision of the Messiah as the Son of God who ministers to the martyred saints in heaven:

"Then I said to the angel, 'Who is that young man who places crowns on them and puts palms in their hands?' He answered and said to me, 'He is the Son of God, whom they confessed in the world.'" (2:46-47) —Compare Revelation 6:9-11; Daniel 7:13-14, 27.

Because of their apparently Christian character, many scholars and students of the Bible regard these first two chapters as late second or third century Christian additions to the work.