Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

Lamb

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No he hasn't.

Which hasn't he answered then to your satisfaction?

If it's about the serpent he told you that it isn't about justification and by telling you that he's saying that it's not a good analogy for salvation. The people were saved from death of their bodies, not death of their spirit in those verses and that's why he didn't get into it any further.

So what else didn't he answer because I saw answers to everything.
 

pinacled

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Which hasn't he answered then to your satisfaction?

If it's about the serpent he told you that it isn't about justification and by telling you that he's saying that it's not a good analogy for salvation. The people were saved from death of their bodies, not death of their spirit in those verses and that's why he didn't get into it any further.

So what else didn't he answer because I saw answers to everything.
Few know the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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Romans 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Protestantism is unbiblical!

Faith alone! That means faith alone! Period!
No sacramentse ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38-39 acts 8:36-38 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21
No obedience of faith rom 16:26
No repentance Lk 3:3
No suffering Mk 8:34 Mk 10:21 Phil 1:29
No hope rom 8:24
No charity 1 cor 13:2 1 cor 13:13
No love of God duet. 6:5
No grace Jn 1:16-17
No patience Heb 10:36
No nothing but faith alone!
Alone means alone!

Rom 8: 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Three things are eternal (and therefore inseparable) faith, hope, & charity, and the greatest of these is charity! 1 cor 13

And never “faith alone”!

Rev. 2 I know thy works! I thought faith alone is all that mattered?

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

How can salvation be by faith alone in Christ alone thru grace alone?

Faith alone?

1 cor 13:2 and 13:13, Phil 1:29, James 2:24 Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 oppose faith alone!

1 cor 13:2 “all faith” without charity avails nothing, nada!

“Faith alone” is heresy!
Hersey is treason against God!
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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Virtues are not natural, but supernatural helps from God!

The virtues are exercised to the highest degree in Mary most holy and to perfection in Jesus Christ!

The doctrine of demons are filled with the vices of the demons!

Humility and obedience are the virtues most forgotten and ignored, many who claim the name of Christ are not practicing His virtues

The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Truth is revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles) Jude 1:3 then proposed by the church! Matt 28:19

Christ and His church are one!

[staff edit]

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14

Dan 2:44 Isa 2:2 Micah 4:1 fulfilled in matt 5:14

matt 16:18-19 shall not prevail
Matt 18:17 hear the truth from the church
1 Tim 3:15 the church is the pillar and ground of truth.

Faith ascents & never protests or rebels!
Spiritual Pride protests & is always in rebellion

The nature of spiritual pride is rebellion!
Spiritual pride must protest, and must be right!

Christ and His one true church cannot be right or my self-righteous personal interpretation base on spiritual pride and private judgement must be wrong, and that is unacceptable!

Truth must be revealed by God, and taught by the church, proposed for our belief, we must be instructed!
Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 Acts 8:31 Lk 10:16 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42


Nature of doctrine:

Truth or doctrine MUST be Revealed by God And Proposed by the church for belief, not spiritual pride and self-righteous private judgement!
Claim: “scripture alone”
It’s really just the ugly repugnant pride!
It’s no faith at all only spiritual pride and self-righteous private judgement!
They Hope in creatures not in God!

It is unlawful to refuse to accept a truth revealed by God!

Matt 28:19 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Truth matters! It is revealed by God and therefore CANNOT be changed!
The church likewise is founded by Christ and therefore CANNOT be reformed!

Faith hope and charity! 1 cor 13:13
Three are eternal, and the greatest is charity!
“Faith alone”? Never faith, hope, & charity are inseparable!
If salvation was by faith alone then the greatest would be faith, but as even “all faith“ without charity avails nothing! 1 cor 13:2
 
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Fritz Kobus

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Thankfully we are credited with Jesus' righteousness by faith, and that includes his obedience. However, we all (Christian and non-Christian) are expected to perfectly obey God. We should never take that lightly. That we Christians are credited with Jesus' righteousness is by no means license to ignore the command to obey God.
 

Josiah

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Faith alone! That means faith alone! Period!



No, it does not.


The teaching is SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE - SOLI DEO GLORIA. It is ONE, single, united, undivided teaching - all interlinked. And it ONLY deals with justification in the narrow sense (some Catholics call this "initial grace"). While Protestants at times address each aspect individually (as does Scripture), they are not separable.

Yes, the view holds that JESUS is the Savior (and thus does the saving)... that He is more than just a possibility-maker, a door opener, an offerer of something, He is what Scripture calls Him - the SAVIOR. We reject that self is the Savior of self because self does what self must do to save self, Jesus being a failure in His role as Savior.

Sola Fide ONLY applied to the MEANS by which the atoning work of Christ is apprehended or applied to the individual... this is "by faith" as Scripture says. It is NOT the atoning work, it is the means by which that is applied. And it is NOT the "end all" it ONLY applies to the means by which the salvic work of Christ is applied to an individual.



36:25-27 Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38-39 acts 8:36-38 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21
rom 16:26
Lk 3:3
Mk 8:34 Mk 10:21 Phil 1:29
rom 8:24
1 cor 13:2 1 cor 13:13
duet. 6:5
Jn 1:16-17
Heb 10:36
Rom 8: 24


I agree with every word in every one of those verses, NONE of them state that there is some OTHER means by which the atoning work is apprehended by the individual in initial grace. They are all 100% true and important, just not addressing the issue HERE.




For the Protestant understanding of "initial grace" or "born again" or justification in the narrow sense, read this: Issues in the Reformation: Salvation




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NathanH83

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Obedience is a condition of obedience condition of obedience.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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No, it does not.


The teaching is SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE - SOLI DEO GLORIA. It is ONE, single, united, undivided teaching - all interlinked. And it ONLY deals with justification in the narrow sense (some Catholics call this "initial grace"). While Protestants at times address each aspect individually (as does Scripture), they are not separable.

Yes, the view holds that JESUS is the Savior (and thus does the saving)... that He is more than just a possibility-maker, a door opener, an offerer of something, He is what Scripture calls Him - the SAVIOR. We reject that self is the Savior of self because self does what self must do to save self, Jesus being a failure in His role as Savior.

Sola Fide ONLY applied to the MEANS by which the atoning work of Christ is apprehended or applied to the individual... this is "by faith" as Scripture says. It is NOT the atoning work, it is the means by which that is applied. And it is NOT the "end all" it ONLY applies to the means by which the salvic work of Christ is applied to an individual.






I agree with every word in every one of those verses, NONE of them state that there is some OTHER means by which the atoning work is apprehended by the individual in initial grace. They are all 100% true and important, just not addressing the issue HERE.




For the Protestant understanding of "initial grace" or "born again" or justification in the narrow sense, read this: Issues in the Reformation: Salvation




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So go you agree it is a statement of luther that says “justification is by faith alone, but that faith is not alone”?
 

Josiah

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So go you agree it is a statement of luther that says “justification is by faith alone, but that faith is not alone”?

...a quote I agree with.



Again, you are wrong that the Faith Alone aspect of the Protestant position of SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE - SOLI DEO GLORIA" is alone, no, it is one aspect of one, united, inseparable teaching that INCLUDES Sola Gratia and Solus Christus and Soli Deo Gloria.

See post 166

And this: Issues in the Reformation: Salvation





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Lamb

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...a quote I agree with.



Again, you are wrong that the Faith Alone aspect of the Protestant position of SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE - SOLI DEO GLORIA" is alone, no, it is one aspect of one, united, inseparable teaching that INCLUDES Sola Gratia and Solus Christus and Soli Deo Gloria.

See post 166

And this: Issues in the Reformation: Salvation





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There really seems to be a misunderstanding of what Luther's quote truly means, doesn't it?
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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...a quote I agree with.



Again, you are wrong that the Faith Alone aspect of the Protestant position of SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE - SOLI DEO GLORIA" is alone, no, it is one aspect of one, united, inseparable teaching that INCLUDES Sola Gratia and Solus Christus and Soli Deo Gloria.

See post 166

And this: Issues in the Reformation: Salvation





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Do you also agree he must be mentally ill to say that? It can’t be both at the same time or he is sick, it’s a contradiction
Christ alone?

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Not Christ alone must also believe on the Father who sent Christ!

Grace alone?

Mk 16:16 faith and baptism!
Jn 3:5 water and the spirit! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 the promise of the father, sacred oath is a sacrament!

Not grace alone but, grace thru baptism of water and the spirit, and a new heart full of love of God!

Matt 5:7 merciful receive mercy
Lk 7:47 forgiven by love
1 pet 4:8 charity covers sins
Jn 20:21-23 sins forgiven

Acts 22:15 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Jn 3:5 and Titus 3:5 born again refers to baptismal regeneration

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!


Paul never taught justification by “faith alone”!

Did not Paul write these scriptures?

1 cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Three things are eternal (and therefore inseparable) faith, hope, & charity, and the greatest of these is charity! 1 cor 13:13

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Other scriptures opposing “faith alone”

Matt 5:7 mercy thru merciful
Lk 7:47 forgiven by love
1 pet 4:8 charity covers sins
Jn 20:21-23 sins forgiven

Faith alone
Rom 13:11 makes no sense whatsoever!
 

Josiah

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Do you also agree he must be mentally ill to say that?

No, it's not.

YOU are isolating ONE aspect of the teaching.

Yes, FAITH is the ONLY ("alone") vehicle by which the merits of Christ are apprehended or applied to the individual. None of the references you gave remotely even address the issue of this and so are entirely irrelevant.

Again, yet again, still another time, the teaching is SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE - SOLI DEO GLORIA as one united, singular, completely interconnected, inseparable teaching. The "faith" part addresses the issue of apprehension. If you believe that faith does nothing or that faith is unnecessary, okay but none of the verses you reference indicate that OR state that there is another means by which initial grace becomes applied to the individual. Yes, the Sacraments apply grace (SOLA GRATIA) and that grace gives faith but it's the faith that receieves the grace, not owning a Ford or voting for Biden or being given a Rosary at one's birth.


Now, is faith alone in how the merits of grace are apprehended by an individual? Yes (regardless of how such faith is conveyed). Is such faith ALONE in the live of a Christian? Never. It is JOINED with obedience, love, service and much more. Those are not how grace is apprehended but they do accompany faith. Does your car have brakes? Is that alone what stops your car? Is your car only brakes, are the brakes alone in a car?


The rest of your post as absolutely nothing to do with this.


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Faithhopeandcharity

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No, it's not.

YOU are isolating ONE aspect of the teaching.

Yes, FAITH is the ONLY ("alone") vehicle by which the merits of Christ are apprehended or applied to the individual. None of the references you gave remotely even address the issue of this and so are entirely irrelevant.

Again, yet again, still another time, the teaching is SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE - SOLI DEO GLORIA as one united, singular, completely interconnected, inseparable teaching. The "faith" part addresses the issue of apprehension. If you believe that faith does nothing or that faith is unnecessary, okay but none of the verses you reference indicate that OR state that there is another means by which initial grace becomes applied to the individual. Yes, the Sacraments apply grace (SOLA GRATIA) and that grace gives faith but it's the faith that receieves the grace, not owning a Ford or voting for Biden or being given a Rosary at one's birth.


Now, is faith alone in how the merits of grace are apprehended by an individual? Yes (regardless of how such faith is conveyed). Is such faith ALONE in the live of a Christian? Never. It is JOINED with obedience, love, service and much more. Those are not how grace is apprehended but they do accompany faith. Does your car have brakes? Is that alone what stops your car? Is your car only brakes, are the brakes alone in a car?


The rest of your post as absolutely nothing to do with this.


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Then you agree is not by faith alone!

james 2:24 and Phil 1:29 and 1 cor 13:2
 

Josiah

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Then you agree is not by faith alone!


Read post #172.


I'll repeat this part of it because perhaps you couldn't read it (or chose not to):

Is faith alone in one thing - how the merits of grace are apprehended by an individual? Yes (regardless of how such faith is conveyed). Is such faith ALONE in the life of a Christian? Never. It is JOINED with obedience, love, service and much more. Those are not how grace is apprehended but they do accompany faith. Does your car have brakes? Is that alone what stops your car? Is your car only brakes, are the brakes alone in a car? Thus it is correct to say "brakes alone stop a car but brakes are not alone on a car."

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Faith is the only means by which the salvic works of Christ in justification (narrow) are apprehended by the individual, thus the "faith alone" aspect of SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE - SOLI DEO GLORIA. Faith is not the only thing in the life of a Christian, but then that's not the subject of the doctrine. You are simply mixing up entirely different things, and I think we all know that.





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Faithhopeandcharity

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Read post #172.


I'll repeat this part of it because perhaps you couldn't read it (or chose not to):




Faith is the only means by which the salvic works of Christ in justification (narrow) are apprehended by the individual, thus the "faith alone" aspect of SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE - SOLI DEO GLORIA. Faith is not the only thing in the life of a Christian, but then that's not the subject of the doctrine. You are simply mixing up entirely different things, and I think we all know that.





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Then baptism is MEANINGLESS!
 

Lamb

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Then baptism is MEANINGLESS!

Nope. Baptism gives faith. Not meaningless and especially since it's from anothen...from above. That means that God baptizes us so that's not meaningless.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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Nope. Baptism gives faith. Not meaningless and especially since it's from anothen...from above. That means that God baptizes us so that's not meaningless.
But does faith & baptism cos justification or faith alone?
 

Lamb

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Josiah

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But does faith & baptism cos justification or faith alone?


See posts 172 and 174.

Baptism is one of the "Means of Grace" and thus can convey FAITH. It is the divine gift of faith that apprehends the merits of Christ and applies such to the individual. Such faith is ACCOMPANIED by many things, but it is that faith alone that so apprehends.




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