Is penance biblical?

[Josiah]

Make up my mind about what?

See post 55 (and 51). You posted two contradictory things; I just asked which you hold as true. When you decide, let us know.



.

 

[Lamb]

I never mentioned Adam and Eve. You introduced them



Here is one point I made in post #44
Jesus took our sins with him to the cross. He sacrificed himself on the cross and then took that sacrifice to heaven to make an offering of his blood as atonement.
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27).

he [Christ]entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. (Heb 9:12)
You didn't respond to that.

Then
No, if a debt is paid it is not forgiven. It is paid. Forgiveness means letting off the debt
Jesus gives us a teaching on debt and forgiveness in Mt 18:23-35
23 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.
24 When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents;
25 and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’
27 And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt.
Who paid off the servants debt?
No-one. The debt was not paid.
The master forgave the debt.

28 But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, ‘Pay what you owe.’
29 So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’
30 He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt.
31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place.
32 Then his lord summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me;
33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’
34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers till he should pay all his debt.
You see no-one paid the debt and the master withdrew his forgiveness and demanded the servant paid the debt.

35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.
Jesus is teaching about the Father's forgiveness.
The Father will remit the punishment we are due, but only if we do the same for others, just as Jesus taught us in the Lord's prayer:
And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; (Mt 6:12).

All I got in response to that was this
No, a paid debt is also said to be forgiven. It is no more remembered.
That is untrue and you made no attempt to actually address the example I gave.

Then were these two questions not clear enough>
To punish an innocent persons for the faults of another would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?
To punish two people for the fault of one of them would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?

So your beef is that you don't think that your debt can be paid as well as forgiven at the same time? But that's exactly what happened!

You owed a debt to God by being a sinful human being since conception. The demand of God is that a perfect person shed blood for your sins. That happened. Jesus shed His blood on the cross for YOUR sins since He has no sin of His own. That debt that you owed God is paid for by Jesus. Those verses I quoted already in this thread apply here.

Now here's a verse that combines both the blood being shed and forgiveness of sins: “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us.” – Ephesians 1:7-8

You deny that a debt can be paid and forgiveness given yet there it is.

Now as for these:
To punish an innocent persons for the faults of another would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?
To punish two people for the fault of one of them would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?

Which innocent persons are YOU referring to first off? I thought you were at first maybe saying Jesus was the innocent one. And I answered. It. HE is innocent in that He committed no sin. Yet, He carried our sins to the cross.

So were you referring to Jesus? Or you? If it's you, you aren't innocent.

Punishing two people? WHO are you talking about? Which 2 people??

 

[Stephen]

See post 55 (and 51). You posted two contradictory things; I just asked which you hold as true. When you decide, let us know.



.

Salvation is a process not a one off event.

Jesus atoned for our sins by his self sacrifice on the cross. He made it possible for us to be saved.
But not everyone is saved.
There is something we have to do for us to be saved. Consider these verses:
He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)
We have to believe and we should be baptized

I won't copy it all but read Mt 25:31-46 We need to be sheep not goats

Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand (Rom 5:1-2).
See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God (Heb 12:15)
Jesus gives us access to it. It’s not automatic. We have to obtain it.

For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation (2Cor 7:10)
And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Mt 19:17)
So we must repent, and believe, and be baptized, and keep God’s commandments

And there are more I could give you.

You can say this is God's work in us but we have to participate in this.

 

[Stephen]

So your beef is that you don't think that your debt can be paid as well as forgiven at the same time? But that's exactly what happened!

No it isn't. The Biblical example I gave you shows that your claim is untrue. It's just your opinion without any evidence.

You owed a debt to God by being a sinful human being since conception. The demand of God is that a perfect person shed blood for your sins. That happened. Jesus shed His blood on the cross for YOUR sins since He has no sin of His own. That debt that you owed God is paid for by Jesus. Those verses I quoted already in this thread apply here.

Where does the Bible say we are sinful human beings at conception? What sins did I commit at conception?
Where does the Bible say we owe a debt to God at conception?

Now here's a verse that combines both the blood being shed and forgiveness of sins: “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us.” – Ephesians 1:7-8

Yes, I believe that. But that does not say Jesus was punished.
I keep posting this and you keep ignoring it.
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27)

Jesus took our sins with him to the cross. He sacrificed himself on the cross and then took that sacrifice to heaven to make an offering of his blood as atonement.
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27).

he [Christ]entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. (Heb 9:12)

Nothing about being punished.

You deny that a debt can be paid and forgiveness given yet there it is.

Nothing you have posted shows that a debt can be paid and forgiven at the same time.

Now as for these:
To punish an innocent persons for the faults of another would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?
To punish two people for the fault of one of them would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?

Which innocent persons are YOU referring to first off? I thought you were at first maybe saying Jesus was the innocent one. And I answered. It. HE is innocent in that He committed no sin. Yet, He carried our sins to the cross.S o were you referring to Jesus? Or you? If it's you, you aren't innocent.

Punishing Jesus for our faults is punishing an innocent person for the faults of another. Do you not think that is unjust?

Punishing two people? WHO are you talking about? Which 2 people??

Jesus and someone who does not repent - call him A
You say Jesus is punished for the faults of A
And A is punished for his faults as well.
So God punished two people for one persons faults. Is that not unjust?

 

[Lamb]

No it isn't. The Biblical example I gave you shows that your claim is untrue. It's just your opinion without any evidence.



Where does the Bible say we are sinful human beings at conception? What sins did I commit at conception?
Where does the Bible say we owe a debt to God at conception?



Yes, I believe that. But that does not say Jesus was punished.
I keep posting this and you keep ignoring it.
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27)

Jesus took our sins with him to the cross. He sacrificed himself on the cross and then took that sacrifice to heaven to make an offering of his blood as atonement.
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27).

he [Christ]entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. (Heb 9:12)

Nothing about being punished.



Nothing you have posted shows that a debt can be paid and forgiven at the same time.




Punishing Jesus for our faults is punishing an innocent person for the faults of another. Do you not think that is unjust?

Jesus and someone who does not repent - call him A
You say Jesus is punished for the faults of A
And A is punished for his faults as well.
So God punished two people for one persons faults. Is that not unjust?

Here's the verse you forgot about:
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

You see, sin isn't just the things you do. Sinful from the time your mother conceived you means that you inherited sin from Adam. We all did.

I already addressed the fact that God demands blood for our sin. And Jesus fulfilled that because only HE could.

Death is not punishment? hmm Don't you think that being nailed to a cross was a horrible death?

Again, you are separating Jesus from God. It was God's plan all along to save us by dying on the cross for our sins. He chose that so of course He's JUST in His plan. Are you calling God's plan unjust?

Those who reject Jesus and His forgiveness don't receive the benefits from the cross when they die. Only those who have faith will have eternal life. Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Where does the Bible say we are sinful human beings at conception? What sins did I commit at conception?

Here's the verse you forgot about:
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Sure, we are born with a sin-nature, but no sin is committed at birth. I once had a pastor who pointed to an infant crying and said, "see what a sinner he is." What was he talking about. The infant may have had a stomach pain causing him to cry. That surely is not a sin. It is stuff like that which I think led to the verse in Away in a Manger about the baby Jesus not crying. As if crying would have been a sin.

And in Psalm 51:5, being sinful at conception can only mean the fallen nature, the sin nature, not that actual sin was being committed.

 

[Lamb]

Sure, we are born with a sin-nature, but no sin is committed at birth. I once had a pastor who pointed to an infant crying and said, "see what a sinner he is." What was he talking about. The infant may have had a stomach pain causing him to cry. That surely is not a sin. It is stuff like that which I think led to the verse in Away in a Manger about the baby Jesus not crying. As if crying would have been a sin.

And in Psalm 51:5, being sinful at conception can only mean the fallen nature, the sin nature, not that actual sin was being committed.

The sin we inherited from Adam goes much deeper than the propensity TO SIN. It's actually a disconnect from God and the psalmist was aware of that. It's the reason everyone, even babies need a Savior. Sin goes deeper than something we do or don't do, it's within us as a condition.

 

[Stephen]

deleted

 

[Stephen]

Here's the verse you forgot about:
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

You see, sin isn't just the things you do. Sinful from the time your mother conceived you means that you inherited sin from Adam. We all did.

I'll leave this for now as Fritz Kopbus is addressing ir

I already addressed the fact that God demands blood for our sin. And Jesus fulfilled that because only HE could.

If you are referring to posts #56 & #62, you merely claimed that God demands blood for our sin. You gave no evidence for that claim.

Death is not punishment? hmm Don't you think that being nailed to a cross was a horrible death?

Death can be a punishment as in capital punishment. But death can happen for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with punishment.
Besides who put Jesus on the cross? Was it God or the Romans?

Again, you are separating Jesus from God. It was God's plan all along to save us by dying on the cross for our sins. He chose that so of course He's JUST in His plan. Are you calling God's plan unjust?

Jesus went to the cross as a voluntary sacrifice. He was not punished by the Father..
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27)

Jesus took our sins with him to the cross. He sacrificed himself on the cross and then took that sacrifice to heaven to make an offering of his blood as atonement.
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27).

he [Christ]entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. (Heb 9:12)

Nothing about being punished.

Those who reject Jesus and His forgiveness don't receive the benefits from the cross when they die. Only those who have faith will have eternal life. Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I'm not rejecting Jesus. I'm rejection your outrageous claims that the Father punished Jesus.

And you are still dodging these questions
To punish an innocent persons for the faults of another would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?
To punish two people for the fault of one of them would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?

And You still haven't provided Scripture to show that a debt can be paid and forgiven at the same time.

 

[Stephen]

duplicate (sorry I'm having problems this morning)

 

[Josiah]

Jesus ... made it possible for us to be saved

... then obviously Jesus is not the Savior and you (and Christianity) are wrong to call Him that. If Jesus doesn't save, He's not the Savior. Of anyone.

Clearly you hold that self is the Savior. Jesus may (at most) be the POSSIBILITY-maker or Helper or Inspiration but if He saves no one then He is not the Savior. Honesty would seem to require you call Him what you hold he is.

Other religions (all but Christianity) hold that man NEEDS salvation.... and God empowers and enables that (makes it possible) but that each self saves self by what self does (perhaps with divine help). Perhaps you hold to the non-Christian religions. But I don't.




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[Stephen]

... then obviously Jesus is not the Savior and you (and Christianity) are wrong to call Him that. If Jesus doesn't save, He's not the Savior. Of anyone.

Clearly you hold that self is the Savior. Jesus may (at most) be the POSSIBILITY-maker or Helper or Inspiration but if He saves no one then He is not the Savior. Honesty would seem to require you call Him what you hold he is.

Other religions (all but Christianity) hold that man NEEDS salvation.... and God empowers and enables that (makes it possible) but that each self saves self by what self does (perhaps with divine help). Perhaps you hold to the non-Christian religions. But I don't.




.

You are being ridiculous Josiah.

Do you believe that God saves everyone?
If not then on what criteria does God choose to save some and not others? A random pick? Throw of the dice? Or something we do?
I showed you in post #63 that there is something we must do - and you didn't challenge it. so why make such an extraordinary response?

Jesus said He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16) and continues but he who does not believe will be condemned.
That seems very clear to me.

 

[Josiah]

Do you believe that God saves everyone?

Well, not all are saved since not all have been given faith. However, Jesus' atonement is for all... so yes, in that sense, He is the Savior of all. But here's our disagreement (see post 51): I hold that Jesus is the Savior, you hold that He only makes salvation POSSIBLE for those who save themselves. You CALL Him "Savior" but hold that He saves no one so it seems very misleading to call Him something you don't believe He is.

You seem to hold to the position of all NON-Christian religions: God makes salvation POSSIBLE but each saves self by what self does (perhaps with divine help) so that if one is saved, it's because of what THEY did. To quote one of my Catholic teachers, "God opened the door to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it" so that if you are in heaven it's because YOU WALKED THROUGH IT. Or as our Deacon said, "Jesus actually saves no one, He makes it POSSIBLE for all to be saved but each saves themself.: I disagree. I call Jesus Savior because I believe that. He IS the Savior (not me, not you, not Budda, not Joe Biden)... and thus it is HE who does the saving. We disagree.

If not then on what criteria does God choose to save some and not others?

1. I disagree with your rubric that if a fallen, sinful, extremely limited person can ask a question, ergo the answer they accept must be true.

2. Read John 3:16. Protestants put it this way: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (Grace alone, and by that we don't mean divine enabling but divine gift) - Solus Christ (CHRIST actually IS the Savior - not just possibility-maker or Door Opener or Helper or Inspiration) - Sola Fide (which is applied to us via the divine gift of faith which is reliance, trust).

3. Is Christ the Savior? YES! Which is why the Bible, Christianity and me call Him such (we are not lying, we are not sharing a falsehood). If you are spiritually alive, it is because of what CHRIST DID. Are all going to heaven? No! Because while Christ died for all, it is applied to us by faith and not all have faith.

there is something we must do.

For justification (narrow)? No, you did not. You did not show that the Bible is wrong to proclaim Jesus as the Savior. You did not prove that Jesus failed as the Messiah and now we gotta finish the job He messed up.

Now, is there MUCH we are called to do? Yes. We are to be as perfect as God is (Matthew 5:48), we are to love all 7.7 billion people as much as Christ loved us on the Cross, to be as holy as God is (Leviticus 20:26).... and that's just the beginning, we are Called to MUCH more than that! But is this how we get saved, by doing all that (making Jesus irrelevant)? And if so, how do you account that NO ONE does so (Romans 3:23, Ephesians 2:1, Romans 5:10). No, I do not agree that each saves self by being as perfect as God, as holy as God, as loving as Christ (and thus have no sin and no need for forgiveness or salvation)... I believe that CHRIST is the Savior of SINNERS (Romans 5:10) and ENEMIES of God (Romans 3:23)... that He did not come just to pat perfect people on the back and tell them they need nothing from Him, but that He came for dead sinners, enemies of God, dead in their sins... He came not to pat healthy people on that back and insist they needed nothing, but to heal the SICK.

ForJesus said He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16) and continues but he who does not believe will be condemned.
That seems very clear to me.

... and to me. But it does not say, "Jesus is not the Savior, YOU ARE. Jesus saves no one, He just makes it POSSIBLE for everyone to save themselves" See Titus 3:5, Romans 5:8, Romans 6:23b, 1 Corinthians 12:3 and so many more. Yes, faith (reliance) is the MEANS by which HIS gift is applied to us. It's not a good work we perform, it's a gift (Eph. 2:8 etc.). Yes, where the gift of faith is missing from an individual, so is salvation but that does NOT mean ERGO Jesus failed, Jesus is not the Savior, self is the Savior of self by being as perfect, holy, and loving as God (thus not needing a Savior) or by some good work of giving self faith (1 Corinthians 12:3b, Ephesians 2:8 - note that the clause refers back to salvation and faith, 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 1:16 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, 1 Peter 1:23). We were DIED.... spiritually LIFELESS... without the Holy Spirit..... denying God. Such will not and cannot give self faith. GOD is the Author of faith. The Holy Spirit is the GIVER of life (as we confess in the Creed). It's NOT a case of God holds out to DEAD, unregenerate, sinful, enemies and haters of God the OFFER of something... and then they perform some spiritual act (without any spiritual life and without the Holy Spirit) the DEAD give self life and faith (no spiritual life needed, no Holy Spirit involved) and God rewards that by giving them life and the Holy Spirit and heaven. Nope.




.

 

[Stephen]

Well, not all are saved since not all have been given faith. However, Jesus' atonement is for all... so yes, in that sense, He is the Savior of all. But here's our disagreement (see post 51): I hold that Jesus is the Savior, you hold that He only makes salvation POSSIBLE for those who save themselves. You CALL Him "Savior" but hold that He saves no one so it seems very misleading to call Him something you don't believe He is.

You seem to hold to the position of all NON-Christian religions: God makes salvation POSSIBLE but each saves self by what self does (perhaps with divine help) so that if one is saved, it's because of what THEY did. To quote one of my Catholic teachers, "God opened the door to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it" so that if you are in heaven it's because YOU WALKED THROUGH IT. Or as our Deacon said, "Jesus actually saves no one, He makes it POSSIBLE for all to be saved but each saves themself.: I disagree. I call Jesus Savior because I believe that. He IS the Savior (not me, not you, not Budda, not Joe Biden)... and thus it is HE who does the saving. We disagree.





1. I disagree with your rubric that if a fallen, sinful, extremely limited person can ask a question, ergo the answer they accept must be true.

2. Read John 3:16. Protestants put it this way: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (Grace alone, and by that we don't mean divine enabling but divine gift) - Solus Christ (CHRIST actually IS the Savior - not just possibility-maker or Door Opener or Helper or Inspiration) - Sola Fide (which is applied to us via the divine gift of faith which is reliance, trust).

3. Is Christ the Savior? YES! Which is why the Bible, Christianity and me call Him such (we are not lying, we are not sharing a falsehood). If you are spiritually alive, it is because of what CHRIST DID. Are all going to heaven? No! Because while Christ died for all, it is applied to us by faith and not all have faith.




For justification (narrow)? No, you did not. You did not show that the Bible is wrong to proclaim Jesus as the Savior. You did not prove that Jesus failed as the Messiah and now we gotta finish the job He messed up.

Now, is there MUCH we are called to do? Yes. We are to be as perfect as God is (Matthew 5:48), we are to love all 7.7 billion people as much as Christ loved us on the Cross, to be as holy as God is (Leviticus 20:26).... and that's just the beginning, we are Called to MUCH more than that! But is this how we get saved, by doing all that (making Jesus irrelevant)? And if so, how do you account that NO ONE does so (Romans 3:23, Ephesians 2:1, Romans 5:10). No, I do not agree that each saves self by being as perfect as God, as holy as God, as loving as Christ (and thus have no sin and no need for forgiveness or salvation)... I believe that CHRIST is the Savior of SINNERS (Romans 5:10) and ENEMIES of God (Romans 3:23)... that He did not come just to pat perfect people on the back and tell them they need nothing from Him, but that He came for dead sinners, enemies of God, dead in their sins... He came not to pat healthy people on that back and insist they needed nothing, but to heal the SICK.




... and to me. But it does not say, "Jesus is not the Savior, YOU ARE. Jesus saves no one, He just makes it POSSIBLE for everyone to save themselves" See Titus 3:5, Romans 5:8, Romans 6:23b, 1 Corinthians 12:3 and so many more. Yes, faith (reliance) is the MEANS by which HIS gift is applied to us. It's not a good work we perform, it's a gift (Eph. 2:8 etc.). Yes, where the gift of faith is missing from an individual, so is salvation but that does NOT mean ERGO Jesus failed, Jesus is not the Savior, self is the Savior of self by being as perfect, holy, and loving as God (thus not needing a Savior) or by some good work of giving self faith (1 Corinthians 12:3b, Ephesians 2:8 - note that the clause refers back to salvation and faith, 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 1:16 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, 1 Peter 1:23). We were DIED.... spiritually LIFELESS... without the Holy Spirit..... denying God. Such will not and cannot give self faith. GOD is the Author of faith. The Holy Spirit is the GIVER of life (as we confess in the Creed). It's NOT a case of God holds out to DEAD, unregenerate, sinful, enemies and haters of God the OFFER of something... and then they perform some spiritual act (without any spiritual life and without the Holy Spirit) the DEAD give self life and faith (no spiritual life needed, no Holy Spirit involved) and God rewards that by giving them life and the Holy Spirit and heaven. Nope.




.

Josiah,
I am truly shocked an appalled at the way you have misrepresented and lied about what I wrote.
I will have no more to do with you and am putting you on ignore.

 

[Josiah]

Stephen,

We can all see what I posted in # 51.

You responded with "Jesus makes it POSSIBLE for us to be saved."

I noted that is your reply (it's verbatim, a word-for-word exact quote). I didn't lie, I verbatim, word-for-word, exactly quoted you. With a quote you did not dispute or correct.

I disagree with it. And noted why (with numerous Scriptures).

You chose not to reply.

And that's okay.



.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

The sin we inherited from Adam goes much deeper than the propensity TO SIN. It's actually a disconnect from God and the psalmist was aware of that. It's the reason everyone, even babies need a Savior. Sin goes deeper than something we do or don't do, it's within us as a condition.

I do not disagree that everyone needs a savior, even babies. What I am curious about now is that if we did not just inherit a sin-nature, which makes it impossible for us to save ourselves, but also, as you say, inherited sin (I assume you mean actual sin) from Adam, where is the justness of God in that? Would God really make me guilty of sin committed by Adam? I did not commit that sin, but I have plenty of my own sins to account for. The sin nature is a corruption of our whole being such that all do die, even a stillborn baby who never had the chance to sin. Otherwise please tell me what sin a pre-born baby can possibly commit. This is especially apparent in a miscarriage that occurs only weeks into the pregnancy.

 

[Josiah]

I do not disagree that everyone needs a savior, even babies. What I am curious about now is that if we did not just inherit a sin-nature, which makes it impossible for us to save ourselves, but also, as you say, inherited sin (I assume you mean actual sin) from Adam, where is the justness of God in that? Would God really make me guilty of sin committed by Adam? I did not commit that sin, but I have plenty of my own sins to account for. The sin nature is a corruption of our whole being such that all do die, even a stillborn baby who never had the chance to sin. Otherwise please tell me what sin a pre-born baby can possibly commit. This is especially apparent in a miscarriage that occurs only weeks into the pregnancy.

Fritz,

Perhaps I can help.

The idea of "original sin" (which is a very ancient and IMO clearly biblical idea) is that human are - BY NATURE - sinful. Not that it's "inherited" in the sense that it's now in our literal DNA (although St. Augustine came close to that) like having blue eyes, but rather that it's a sort of disease that we are born with.

It rejects the idea that we are born perfect (as perfect as God), holy (as holy as God), loving (as loving as God) - just like Adam and Eve BEFORE the Fall, void of any tendency toward selfishness for example. It rejects the idea that it's only the EXTERNAL, the ACTION (or inaction) that is sin - not the heart or thought or "inner" aspect that CAUSED that action (or inaction). It holds that we don't just SIN (kicking the dog) but are SINFUL (so that kicking the dog is something we think of).

Let me use this example. My beloved wife has a cold (over a week now!). Now, she takes meds and is mostly void of symptoms... but does she have a cold? Even when not coughing or experiencing a runny nose? IMO, yes. Does the cough cause the cold or does the cold cause the cough? Well, we can think of SIN as a disease, at least a flaw, that makes us less than human (or at least a SICK one, LOL). And as a result, we tend to have symptoms (kicking the dog). I think this can be seen in Scripture too when sometimes it speaks of SIN and sometimes SINS. Traditional theology thus speaks of the disease (original sin) and the symptoms ("actual" sin - sins of thought, word and deed.... sins of commission and omission). In a sense, it's possible to reduce the symptoms (even unbelievers can do this to some degree)...but we still have the disease. "Chief of sinners though I be"

Yes, a preborn baby is sinful - with the disease. True, they have not yet kicked any dog (and never may do so) but they will show symptoms (eventually) because they have the disease. Will their sins be identical to Adams? Well, maybe they won't eat apples but perhaps will show disregard for the will of God. And yes.... the disease began with Adam and flows from all that flow from Adam.

And yeah, even unborn children die. And the Bible says that death is the result of sin (at least for humans).... I realize WHAT death is debated here but orthodox theology says it at least includes physical death (indeed, that Christ died BECAUSE He took the sins of the world upon Himself).

I'm not sure we disagree... but I hope this helps.


Blessings!


Josiah



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[Fritz Kobus]

Josiah. I do not see anything to disagree with. I might only say that the term "original sin" may not be the best way to describe it. The original sin happened in the garden. The consequence was a corrupted human nature. So maybe "original corruption" is a better term, though awkward. In Doctrines of the Bible (Daniel Kaufman, ed., Herald Press) it is called The Adamic Sin. This book notes that, "Even if it were possible to live an absolutely perfect life from infancy to death (something unknown, outside of Christ) this would not atone for the sinful quality transmitted from Adam to his posterity."

Now Francis Pieper (Christian Dogmatics, Concordia Publishing House) says that Original sin embraces the hereditary corruption and "the guilt of the one sin of Adam which God imputes to all men." What I would like to see is where in the Bible does it show that the one sin of Adam is imputed to all men. Pieper cites Romans 5:18 and 5:19 as proof of that guilt being imputed to all men, but those verses seem rather to speak to the hereditary sin, especially when you consider the following:

ROMANS 5: 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Consider that the italicized parts that I underlined are not in the original Greek. So we do not necessarily have a judgement of all men, which would suggest guilt, but simply as stated in V19, many were made sinners. This seems to be similar to how one man might release toxic gas in a crowded restaurant, thereby making many who are in the restaurant sick. It was not a judgement upon them for the sin of the man who released the toxic gas, but was a consequence. Therefore, I maintain that our sin nature and that we are subject to death, even at a miniscule time after conception, is a consequence of Adam's sin. So, even if we could live a life and never sin, we still would be subject to death. I think Kaufman puts it well in saying a sinless life "would not atone for the sinful quality transmitted from Adam to his posterity."

I guess one way to look at it is that we are never free of sin, even if we don't actively commit sin (e.g., the 2 days from conception person). If anything, we might say that Adam was guilty of destroying all of humanity when he sinned. So in a sense, I could say Adam made me a sinner, but then I cannot get far with that, as we all know Adam was perfect before he committed that sin, and so if me or you Adam's shoes (ha, he had no shoes ) would we have done better. Probably not. So if we try to blame Adam, we may as well blame ourselves. Yet we sometimes pine for that perfect state, saying, "if only Adam had done his duty and stopped Eve instead of joining in."

 

[Josiah]

Josiah. I do not see anything to disagree with.

Now Francis Pieper (Christian Dogmatics, Concordia Publishing House)

... I have carefully read all 3 volumes.

I guess one way to look at it is that we are never free of sin, even if we don't actively commit sin

Yup. Again, my "disease" and "symptoms" illustration.

If anything, we might say that Adam was guilty of destroying all of humanity when he sinned. So in a sense, I could say Adam made me a sinner, but then I cannot get far with that, as we all know Adam was perfect before he committed that sin, and so if me or you Adam's shoes (ha, he had no shoes ) would we have done better. Probably not. So if we try to blame Adam, we may as well blame ourselves. Yet we sometimes pine for that perfect state, saying, "if only Adam had done his duty and stopped Eve instead of joining in."

Well...the "disease" (condition) began with Adam and flows from Him. Now, there are some "mysteries" here.... including why in the world would a perfect person sin? And HOW does this get passed on (since it's not an aspect of our DNA). And why was Jesus not impacted? (there's a theory about that last one) but then theology is filled with mystery. Used to bother me, doesn't anymore.


Glad to have you here....


Blessings


- Josiah



.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Patience Implies suffering!

In order to bear fruit we must deny ourself, suffer, and die!

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Verses of Christian suffering:

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: