Pro-life

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Does being "pro-life" mean you are "anti-abortion" or "anti-choice"? Why, or why not?
I'll give my two cents soon
 

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
2,278
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
I’m Pro-choice. I believe a woman should have the choice of what is best for her body, and for her baby. If she doesn’t want to risk her baby’s health by getting the experimental vaccine, then it should be her choice to refuse the vaccine.

On the other hand, if she wants to kill her self or the baby, then she’s not in her right mind.

I’m in favor of choice. But that doesn’t mean you get to go killing your children. Murderers should be charged with murder.
 

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I’m Pro-choice. I believe a woman should have the choice of what is best for her body, and for her baby. If she doesn’t want to risk her baby’s health by getting the experimental vaccine, then it should be her choice to refuse the vaccine.
What might factor in to deciding what is 'best'? Might it be mom's health, health of the baby, socio-cultural issues?
On the other hand, if she wants to kill her self or the baby, then she’s not in her right mind.
Can you clarify what you mean here?
I’m in favor of choice. But that doesn’t mean you get to go killing your children. Murderers should be charged with murder.

So, for those who might be 'pro-life', how do you view them? Are they (by default) anti-abortion, or do you see it differently?
 

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
2,278
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
I think I made myself clear. Abortion is murder. But that doesn’t mean a woman doesn’t have a choice over her medical choices. The “Pro-Choice” label is a facade. Nobody gets to choose to murder.

And yes, if you’re Pro-Life, then you better be against abortion. That’s about all I have to say.
 

RichWh1

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2018
Messages
709
Age
77
Location
Tarpon Springs FL
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Does being "pro-life" mean you are "anti-abortion" or "anti-choice"? Why, or why not?
I'll give my two cents soon

In the Bible we are commanded to choose. Choose this day whom you will serve
Choose life
So the Bible is not against choice; it is pro choice


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
32,649
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The baby doesn't get to choose...I'm anti-abortion.
 

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Does being "pro-life" mean you are "anti-abortion" or "anti-choice"? Why, or why not?
I'll give my two cents soon
My question, again.
I know this is a "charged" topic
 
Last edited:

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
In the Bible we are commanded to choose. Choose this day whom you will serve
Choose life
So the Bible is not against choice; it is pro choice


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In the full context of the verse, how do you see this fitting? The one who does not "choose life" has served/is serving "the gods which (the) fathers served"?
What of a person who is pro-life, but respects the dignity of a person's inherent right to choose?
 

RichWh1

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2018
Messages
709
Age
77
Location
Tarpon Springs FL
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
In the full context of the verse, how do you see this fitting? The one who does not "choose life" has served/is serving "the gods which (the) fathers served"?
What of a person who is pro-life, but respects the dignity of a person's inherent right to choose?

If we remove the right to choose then we have eliminated free will, which is given to all mankind.
Free will is the ability to choose


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
2,278
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single

Joshua1Eight

Well-known member
Joined
May 21, 2021
Messages
155
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Does being "pro-life" mean you are "anti-abortion" or "anti-choice"? Why, or why not?
I'll give my two cents soon

It’s not just abortion that’s wrong. It’s birth control in general that is frowned upon by the Church. God commanded Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply upon the Earth.
 

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Just some clarity - the original question is in regards to one who is "Pro-Life" being "Anti-Abortion". Are they one and the same? Why or why not?

*Disclaimer - the timing of this thread and the recent events in the State of Texas are coincidence only. I was not aware of, nor am I aware of now, specific circumstances surrouning court decisions in Texas. Also, this thread will not be for that topic.
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Just some clarity - the original question is in regards to one who is "Pro-Life" being "Anti-Abortion". Are they one and the same? Why or why not?

*Disclaimer - the timing of this thread and the recent events in the State of Texas are coincidence only. I was not aware of, nor am I aware of now, specific circumstances surrouning court decisions in Texas. Also, this thread will not be for that topic.
Yeah I heard about this yesterday, abortion is banned in Texas now (once the heart starts beating I believe), I think the bill is still in process though
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
32,649
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Just some clarity - the original question is in regards to one who is "Pro-Life" being "Anti-Abortion". Are they one and the same? Why or why not?

*Disclaimer - the timing of this thread and the recent events in the State of Texas are coincidence only. I was not aware of, nor am I aware of now, specific circumstances surrouning court decisions in Texas. Also, this thread will not be for that topic.

It depends on how the person defines "pro-life" because does that mean pro-life of anyone and everyone or is it just for the unborn? I believe the term was first coined in connections against abortion and it's better to say something "pro" than "anti" in order to be more effective.
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
It depends on how the person defines "pro-life" because does that mean pro-life of anyone and everyone or is it just for the unborn? I believe the term was first coined in connections against abortion and it's better to say something "pro" than "anti" in order to be more effective.
Good point, "anti-life" doesn't sound very appealing
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
As slavery was the huge moral/political issue for some 200 years in the USA, abortion has become such in our time.

I'm solidly pro-life. It is my top issue in voting and it is a moral position about which I'm passionate. There ARE areas were I "give" a bit (in case of rape, if continuing clearly threatens the physical life of the mother) but I'm pretty solidly pro-life. I "inherited" this, I suspect, from my parents great respect for life that they instilled in me, their great emphasis on protecting the weak, and from my Catholic upbringing. My parents - one a diehard "bleeding heart" liberal, the other a ditto head conservative - both are strongly pro life (although obviously my mom votes contrary to her convictions on this point). As a teen, as a part of my schooling, I volunteered at a Birth Choice center (an amazing experience that had a profound impact on me) and I still contribute generously to some of these organizations.

I agree that women (and men!) have "choice" over their OWN bodies (to some extent) but NOT over that of another. Since the unborn baby has a different body, no man or woman has "choice" over THEIR body.



My primary reasons are two:


1. Human rights. My sister (who has a Ph.D. in biology and does biological research as her vocation) has stressed to me that biologically, it is absurd to argue that the pre-born baby is not a human or not alive. She stresses that nothing happens to the DNA as the last bit of the toes exits the birth canal: in terms of species, what is AFTER the exit of the last toe is no different that what was before the crown of the baby's head began appearing outside that canal. While precise definitions of what is and is not "life" and is and is not "human" are not as precise as we'd all like, however we BIOLOGICALLY define such, birth has nothing to do with it. I believe that all humans are endowed with inalienable HUMAN rights simply as a function of they being HUMAN - and chief among these is life (the ONLY right that ultimately matters..... take that away and no other "right" matters at all, applies at all). Now, we can have discussions of self defense, just war, even capitol punishment (and I have related opinions there) but these are all extreme cases usually related to some guilt or physical threat presented by the one permitted to be murdered, and there seems to be consensus that HUMANS are being murdered in these cases. I think we purposely evade this by insisting that the unborn baby is not 100% a "PERSON" ( an argument taken hook, line and sinker from the pro-slavery position where Blacks were 2/3's a person) or when we people talk about the baby as a parasite or fully dependent - all that simply evades the issue that here is a HUMAN - the same species as we. IF we can deprive a whole class, an entire category of living HUMANS - regardless of their guilt or bad behavior or physical threat - deprive them without any due process - deprive them of the most important, most fundamental, most necessary of all HUMAN rights - life - then the most gross injustice has been made and all other innocent humans are threatened and weakened.


2. Defending the Weak. The Bible says we are to speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, we are to defend those who cannot defend themselves, we are to be caretakers of the weak. Men - in particular - have often identified themselves strongly with this defender and providing role..... women - in particular - have seen motherhood as one of providing and defending role. We can see some of this even among animals. I reject the premise that those with political power may THEREFORE, as a FUNCTION of that power, trample on the rights, the humanity, the life of those less powerful or less independent simply as a function of their superior power to do so. One does not have some "right" to choose to murder simply because one has the political power to do it with impunity, to get away with it because other powerful ones will allow it. Remember what the powerful did in the preservation of slavery, in their "pro choice" political point that gave NO CHOICE WHATSOEVER to the one impacted: the Black man/woman. We must not fall to the morality that whatever those with sufficient power do to others is "moral" simply because they have the power to do it - and get away with it. Power does not equal moral. Indeed, it is a sad consequence of sin that the weak, the less-powerful are often trampled on by the more-powerful - and thus NEED our protection, our voice, our intervention. I realize this point makes a few women very uncomfortable.... since nearly the beginning of time, THEY were often the victims of this.... THEY were the weak, the helpless, the powerless and thus the victims of horrible things. Fortunately, very very recently, they have gained some power as the powerful (that's us white, middle class, property owning MEN) granted such. But IMO, because of that history, they ABOVE ALL, should be the MOST pro-life, the MOST sensitive to standing up for those with less power against those with more, they should be the LEAST 'pro-choice' (the powerful choose.... the powerless suffer). And indeed, I think women ARE a bit less "pro-choice" than men (although it's pretty close). We need laws, etc. to protect the weak from the strong, to permit civilization (so that it's not the animal "survival of the fittest", the prevailing of the more powerful over the less so).


Now, I realize...... there are enormous human, personal issues here. I realize discovering one is now the mother of a baby can be unplanned, unwelcomed - and a genuine crisis. And while most sex is consensual (and thus all know a baby can result), it's not always. And I realize that motherhood (before and after birth) has ENORMOUS implications - physically, socially, emotionally; indeed in every way possible - and that can be very difficult. Parenthood (mother and father) are perhaps the biggest and most difficult roles humans ever have. I don't gloss over that. I realize, too, that pregnancy and giving birth can be physically dangerous and are enormous physical efforts (and that - technically, that baby is a "parasite" - a LOT of parents will say that parasite continues for at least 20 years! Maybe a lot longer, lol, not to minimize the reality here). I'm not at all unmoved by those realities. And as I mentioned, I'm at least open to discussions when the baby is a real threat to the physical life of the other and perhaps also in cases of rape and incest. But, the simple reality is: sex tends to eventually result in a baby - and all (over the age of 8 at least - know that), all that is part of the responsibility to which we must rise. AND (most importantly), it means that we - as family and as society - need to "be there" for mothers (and fathers) struggling. IMO, we have far, far too much sense of abandoning parents. We need to "be there" as family, friends, community - emotionally, medically and physically (this is what motivated me so strongly in my years working with abortion alternative centers).

While I do not believe governments' role is religious or even primarily moralistic, it IS in part about protecting the weak, the defenseless, the voiceless (especially those who can't vote - meaning looking for human rather than civil or political rights). Just as I strongly rebuke all those years when the government of the USA lacked the guts, the civility to end slavery, so - for identical reasons - I rebuke the USA government today for lacking the guts and civility to end abortion-on-demand. This is the # 1 voting issue for me; I cannot and will not vote for any who is not clearly pro-life when they are in positions to impact that. And while I think it may take 200 years again (but hopefully not bloody war!), someday we will look upon this ugliness in the same way as we now look back upon slavery (or racism or sexism).



- Josiah



.
 

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
It depends on how the person defines "pro-life" because does that mean pro-life of anyone and everyone or is it just for the unborn? I believe the term was first coined in connections against abortion and it's better to say something "pro" than "anti" in order to be more effective.
That's where I think the clarity needs to be. Being tagged as "anti" does suggest, to me, a bias or hate that isn't (necessarily) there
 

Joshua1Eight

Well-known member
Joined
May 21, 2021
Messages
155
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Just some clarity - the original question is in regards to one who is "Pro-Life" being "Anti-Abortion". Are they one and the same? Why or why not?

*Disclaimer - the timing of this thread and the recent events in the State of Texas are coincidence only. I was not aware of, nor am I aware of now, specific circumstances surrouning court decisions in Texas. Also, this thread will not be for that topic.

As I said earlier, if people decide to use birth control, then they are preventing new life, and are therefore “anti-life” even if they may condemn abortion. In this case, they are both “anti-abortion” and “anti-life”.

The only option the Lord gives us is to get married and have the number of children God chooses, or stay single and be celibate.

But we want the best of both worlds. We want to enjoy marriage, but not allow sexual reproduction to take its natural course.

Pleasure without responsibility.

Any Christian claiming to be “Pro-Life” but favors birth control is both a liar and a hypocrite. You cannot be Pro-Life and condone birth control. Birth control prevents new life. It is anti-life.
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
It’s not just abortion that’s wrong. It’s birth control in general that is frowned upon by the Church. God commanded Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply upon the Earth.

Only some parts of the church oppose some aspects of birth control.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
As I said earlier, if people decide to use birth control, then they are preventing new life, and are therefore “anti-life” even if they may condemn abortion. In this case, they are both “anti-abortion” and “anti-life”.


This thread is not about birth control, it's about abortion.

I disagree. MILLIONS of people choose not to have sex. That does not make them "anti-life". Not conceiving is not the same thing as purposely killing - you know that.




Any Christian claiming to be “Pro-Life” but favors birth control is both a liar and a hypocrite. You cannot be Pro-Life and condone birth control. Birth control prevents new life. It is anti-life.


I find this both illogical and nonsensical. Those against abortion are against killing and child abuse. This has nothing whatsoever to do with not having children. By your logic, a person who doesn't own a car is guilty of stealing. It's simply absurd.

And I'd remind you of what we all know: By far, the largest proponent of birth control is the Catholic Church and its obsession with a particular method couples are taught to have sex but not have children. We all know, the Catholic Church is NOT opposed to birth control (it is the world's largest teacher and proponent of such), it is against certain methods of such - what it calls "unnatural." But it's NOT the birth control it opposes, it's certain methods of such.


This thread is not about birth control, it's about abortion. If you want to talk about birth control, I recommend you start a thread on that, this one is about abortion.




.
 
Top Bottom