What day of the week was it when God stopped caring about the Maccabees?

NathanH83

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Says you. Quote the verbatim words of the Authoritative Body of The Early Church stating what you do.

You won't. Because you can't. And we all know that.






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If the first ecumenical church council was 325 AD, then does that mean the church had no authority until 300 years after it started?
 

Josiah

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the first ecumenical church council was 325 AD


I'd accept that. Just quote the First Ecumenical Council authoritatively declaring all the books you accept (Article 6 of the1563 Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England) to be the inerrant, fully canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God and must be in all tomes marketed with the word "BIBLE" appearing on the cover.

But I know you can't. You can't quote ANY of the 7 Ecumenical Councils declaring ANYTHING you claim on this topic.




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NathanH83

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I'd accept that. Just quote the First Ecumenical Council authoritatively declaring all the books you accept (Article 6 of the1563 Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England) to be the inerrant, fully canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God and must be in all tomes marketed with the word "BIBLE" appearing on the cover.

But I know you can't. You can't quote ANY of the 7 Ecumenical Councils declaring ANYTHING you claim on this topic.




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The church had no authority before 325 AD?
 

Josiah

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The church had no authority before 325 AD?

The church made no official, authoritative declarations prior to that. SOME look to Acts 15 as a case - perhaps - but nothing between that and the Council of Nicea. You indicated you'd accept the Council of Nicea.... and I indicated I would too... but it seems you can't quote that Council saying what you do. You don't care about any statements of the Early Church, just individual opinions of one or two Christians that you can claim said something (but then prove they didn't).

Yes, you CAN find one or two or three individual Christians saying something ... but a few individual Christians is NOT "The Early Church" saying it, anymore than finding one or two or three individual Christians saying something today means it's ERGO the Modern Chruch saying it. And of course, you've made it clear you don't give a rip what a few individual Christians think on stuff... as in embracing books like the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabus.... you don't give it rip, doesn't matter what a few Christian individuals thought about what is sacred Scripture. BUT then you insist that if you can fine 1 or 2 or 3 individual Christians saying something you agree with, BOW, WOW, suddently, that's the authoritative declaration of the Ruling Body of All Christianity... the Early Church definitively speaking. How absurd. How laughable. It's not how the game is played. Maybe you should leave the field.




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NathanH83

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The church made no official, authoritative declarations prior to that. SOME look to Acts 15 as a case - perhaps - but nothing between that and the Council of Nicea. You indicated you'd accept the Council of Nicea.... and I indicated I would too... but it seems you can't quote that Council saying what you do. You don't care about any statements of the Early Church, just individual opinions of one or two Christians that you can claim said something (but then prove they didn't).

Yes, you CAN find one or two or three individual Christians saying something ... but a few individual Christians is NOT "The Early Church" saying it, anymore than finding one or two or three individual Christians saying something today means it's ERGO the Modern Chruch saying it. And of course, you've made it clear you don't give a rip what a few individual Christians think on stuff... as in embracing books like the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabus.... you don't give it rip, doesn't matter what a few Christian individuals thought about what is sacred Scripture. BUT then you insist that if you can fine 1 or 2 or 3 individual Christians saying something you agree with, BOW, WOW, suddently, that's the authoritative declaration of the Ruling Body of All Christianity... the Early Church definitively speaking. How absurd. How laughable. It's not how the game is played. Maybe you should leave the field.




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Everything you are saying is true…..about yourself.

I quote early church councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage. You say you don’t care.

I quote Clement and Polycarp who met the disciples personally. You say you don’t care.

On top of that, I don’t even know what your objective is. Are you trying to say the Apocrypha doesn’t belong? I don’t know. Are you trying to say it does? I don’t know. You won’t say. Too scared to voice your own opinion?

All I know is that you don’t care what individuals in the early church said, nor do you care about what the church councils said.

I on the other hand DO care what the early church said. Because if the very first Christians said that these books belong in the Bible, then that causes me to suspect that the disciples themselves did too. And if the disciples did, then that causes me to suspect that the Jews who lived before the time of Christ had accepted these books as holy scripture.

The Jews who lived BEFORE the time of Christ put these “Apocryphal” books in their Bible, and thus also included them in the Septuagint, and thus told the first Christians to accept them.

It wasn’t until 90 AD at the Council of Jamnia when the unbelieving Jews ripped them out.

But the Christians by that time had already accepted them.

Only the Judaizers, who called themselves Christians, were the ones who wanted to take them out. And honestly, a lot of Protestants today are Judaizers, especially Messianics.
 

Josiah

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I quote early church councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage. You say you don’t care.


No.

You said they were proclamations of The Early Church, which is wrong. They were REGIONAL meetings of different Western, Catholic dioceses... largely unknown, entirely unknown and unrecognized in the East. I didn't dispute that those diocese meetings in some way embraced some books beyond the 66, I never disputed that at all, although they did NOT embrace all the books YOU do. And you are WRONG to say they were binding, authoritative decisions of The Early Church. Anymore than some resolution of the 2019 Convention of the LCMS in Tampa, FL are The Modern Church declaring something, some binding decisions.

Try paying attention. ONE of your many problems is that you don't READ what people post to you (I give you credit that you at least admit this).



I quote Clement and Polycarp who met the disciples personally. You say you don’t care.

I never said any such thing.

You claim that the man with the very popular name of "Clement" that Paul mentions in Philippians IS St. Clement of Rome (the Third Pope). And I noted what everyone knows - you offered NOTHING to confirm this is true. Yes, I told you that your claim is not original with you, some TWO CENTURIES later, an individual also shared that opinion but also offered no evidence.

And I noted that you claimed St. Clement of Rome is a "direct disciple" of St. Paul. Yet here again, NOT ONE WORD to confirm your claim. St. Clement never said this, he never claimed to have even met Paul. NOTHING to confirm this as true. Nothing.

And I noted that your claim that St. Clement said that the Book of Tobit is Divine Scripture is simple a lie, as you yourself chose to prove.



I don’t even know what your objective is.


I've told you repeatedly (but again, you've admitted you don't always read things posted to you). My "objective" is simple: Truth.


ll I know is that you don’t care what individuals in the early church said, nor do you care about what the church councils said.ac


I have no clue how you know that since I never remotely said that.

I honor and esteem Ecumenical Church Councils - all 7 of them. When you raised the Council of Nicea in 325, I said I submit to it and invited you to quote it saying ANYTHING that you are. But of course, you did not. And we all know why.

I honor many of the ECF. What I disagreed with is that if you can find one or two or even three INDIVIDUAL CHRISTIANS who have an opinion, ERGO The Early Church held to that position. That's just laughable and silly. Today, you may find Christians who believe the world is flat, that does NOT prove that THEREFORE some Ruling Body of All Christianity has authortatively declared such to be a fact. THINK.

And it is YOU that indicated you don't give a rip what some ECF believed in this regard. I quoted some who held that the Didache is Sacred Scripture, that the Shepherd of Hermas is Sacred Scripture, that the Epistle of Barnabas is Sacred Scripture but you completely, absolutely ignored this, considering what ECF thought on this subject is irrelevant. It's YOU who dismiss the ECF on this topic.



I DO care what the early church said.


GREAT! Then why don't you ever quote The Early Church? You've never done this.

You sometimes SAY you are quoting some individual, singular Christian (but typically, you prove that actually they never said what you claim they did), and a couple of years ago you noted 3 regional, diocese meetings of the Roman, Western Church (the meetings of which you do not consider authoritatiive) but they were no more The Early Church speaking than the 2019 Convention of the LCMS in Tampa Fl. If you have something from The Early Church, quote it. But we all know why you don't. We all know why.





You make lots and lots of claims..... claims, claims, claims, claims.
NEVER offering ANY substantiation of the truthfulness of such.
Often taking the time to personally prove such to be WRONG.
You seem to admit they may be "TECHNICALLY WRONG" but you seem to hold that therefore, they are correct.





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Josiah

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NathanH83 said:
... ME to SUSPECT.....


A LOT of leaps there.... but that's not what you've claimed. YOU can SUSPECT anything you like. You can SUSPECT that Joseph Smith was an Apostle of Jesus to re-establish the church ... you can SUSPECT that the Pope is infallible.... you can SUSPECT that the Earth is flat.... you can SUSPECT that owning a Ford will get you into heaven. And you can share WHY you yourself - single, fallible, fallen individual you are - SUSPECT that. But you've claimed things as facts, as truths. You've made ENDLESS claims.... not regarding what YOU SUSPECT but what is true. Maybe one of your many problems is that you seem unable to state what you wish to convey? Well, maybe


You've not stated, "as I read this, it causes ME to SUSPECT that MAYBE Polycarp has something in Tobit in mind." You said that Polycarp quotes the Book of Tobit - then proved he did not. Clearly this is about what YOU SUSPECT, not what is true. Your focus is on what YOU SUSPECT, not truth.

You've not stated, "I SUSPECT that The Early Church at some authoritative, ecumenical meeting declared all the books listed in Article 6 of the 1563 Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England to be the inerrant, fully canonical, divinely inscripturated words of God - it's just that I have no evidence of such a meeting or decision, but I choose to SUSPECT that." Nope, you said The Early Church decided that.

Perhaps you just confuse what you suspect with truth. Or as has been theorized before, you just confuse your speculations, claims, guesses with truth. And then exempt them from any accountability, anything beyond the reality that YOU personally SUSPECT something. Your ego is amazing.... that what you personally suspect is therefore truth.


Nathan,


For two years, you have made ENDLESS claims... not of what you personally have chosen to suspect but what is FACT.
Claims here. Claims there. Claims everywhere.
NEVER with ANY substantiation for it being true.
NEVER with even an ounce of interest in whether it is true.
RARELY with any reason or point.
On and on and on and on and on and on.
Sometimes you yourself prove yourself wrong.
Otherwise you yourself show you have NOTHING to support the claim as true.
When people point out errors, you just ignore or evade or change the subject or flame.
Or respond with questions or "what if's" or "but isn't it possible" none of which are substantiation.
What you do is DANGEROUS.
It's the way of false teachers, of heretics, of cult leaders.
The Bible warns us of people who do as you do.
Truth matters.
Abandon your ways.




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