Why do you think that Paul’s direct disciple said that Judith is Sacred Scripture?

[NathanH83]

“And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.”
-Philippians 4:3

Clement was directly discipled by Paul himself, and mentioned him by name in Philippians 4:3.

Clement became church leader in Rome in the late 1st century. While church leader, he wrote a letter called “1 Clement.”
In that letter, Clement referred to the book of Judith as “Sacred Scripture”.

Here’s the quote from 1 Clement:

 

[Josiah]

“And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.”
-Philippians 4:3

Clement was directly discipled by Paul himself, and mentioned him by name in Philippians 4:3.

Clement became church leader in Rome in the late 1st century. While church leader, he wrote a letter called “1 Clement.”
In that letter, Clement referred to the book of Judith as “Sacred Scripture”.

FALSE.


1. There is NO evidence that the Clement mentioned by Paul in Philippians is the same person who wrote 1 Clement.


2. And as the video PROVES, Clement NEVER REMOTELY stated what is claimed, he NEVER expressed a personal opinion that the Book of Judith is "Sacred Scripture." True, MUCH later, long after speaking about "sacred scripture," he mentions Judith - THE PERSON - but clearly, obviously, he never mentions the book AT ALL ... as anything. You just made that up, out of thin air.


Here's yet another wild claim relating to your opinions about what publishing houses must be required to do (and not do).... but it's false. As you yourself show.



.

 

[NathanH83]

FALSE.


1. There is NO evidence that the Clement mentioned by Paul in Philippians is the same person who wrote 1 Clement. You are ASSUMING something... you are just SPECULATING, but then that's what you do.


2. And as the video PROVES, Clement NEVER REMOTELY stated what is claimed, he NEVER expressed a personal opinion that the Book of Judith is "Sacred Scripture." True, MUCH later, long after speaking about "sacred scripture," he mentions Judith - THE PERSON - but clearly, obviously, he never mentions the book AT ALL ... as anything. You just made that up, out of thin air.


Here's yet another wild claim relating to your opinions about what publishing houses must be required to do (and not do).... but it's false. As you yourself show.



.

He mentioned Judith and Esther in the same breath.

 

[Origen]

And as the video PROVES, Clement NEVER REMOTELY stated what is claimed, he NEVER said the Book of Judith is "Sacred Scripture." MUCH later, he refers to Judith - THE PERSON - but clearly he never mentioning the book AT ALL as anything. You just made that up, out of thin air.

You have made an excellent observation.

Immediately after the phrase "the sacred scriptures" 1st Clement references Moses and then quotes from Deuteronomy 9 and Exodus 32.

In 1 Clement 53:1-5 states:

"For ye know, and know well, the sacred scriptures, dearly beloved, and ye have searched into the oracles of God. We write these things therefore to put you in remembrance. When Moses went up into the mountain and had spent forty days and forty nights in fasting and humiliation, God said unto him; Moses, Moses, come down , quickly hence, for My people whom thou leadest forth from the land of Egypt have wrought iniquity: they have transgressed quickly out of the way which thou didst command unto them: they have made for themselves molten images. And the Lord said unto him; I have spoken unto thee once and twice, saying, I have seen this people, and behold it is stiff-necked. Let Me destroy them utterly, and I will blot out their name from under heaven, and I will make of thee a nation great and wonderful and numerous more than this. And Moses said; Nay, not so, Lord Forgive this people their sin, or blot me also out of the book of the living. Oh mighty love! Oh unsurpassable perfection! The servant is bold with his Master; he asketh forgiveness for the multitude, or he demandeth that himself also be blotted out with them."

There is no doubt 1st Clement clearly links the sacred scriptures to Moses by direct quotes.

 

[Josiah]

He mentioned Judith and Esther in the same breath.

He mentions two ladies, correct. He says NOTHING there about any book or books "in the same breath." And he says nothing "in the same breathe" about sacred anything. Yes, he does mention "Sacred Scriptures" and then TWO CHAPTERS LATER, mentioned two ladies. Nowhere does he REMOTELY state that two BOOKS called "Judith" and "Esther" are among the Sacred Scriptures, as you yourself proved.


.

 

[NathanH83]

FALSE.


1. There is NO evidence that the Clement mentioned by Paul in Philippians is the same person who wrote 1 Clement.


2. And as the video PROVES, Clement NEVER REMOTELY stated what is claimed, he NEVER expressed a personal opinion that the Book of Judith is "Sacred Scripture." True, MUCH later, long after speaking about "sacred scripture," he mentions Judith - THE PERSON - but clearly, obviously, he never mentions the book AT ALL ... as anything. You just made that up, out of thin air.


Here's yet another wild claim relating to your opinions about what publishing houses must be required to do (and not do).... but it's false. As you yourself show.



.

Your logic doesn’t make any sense.
He mentioned Judith and called it Sacred scripture, right alongside Esther.

 

[NathanH83]

You have made an excellent observation.

Immediately after the phrase "the sacred scriptures" 1st Clement references Moses and then quotes from Deuteronomy 9 and Exodus 32.

In 1 Clement 53:1-5 states:

"For ye know, and know well, the sacred scriptures, dearly beloved, and ye have searched into the oracles of God. We write these things therefore to put you in remembrance. When Moses went up into the mountain and had spent forty days and forty nights in fasting and humiliation, God said unto him; Moses, Moses, come down , quickly hence, for My people whom thou leadest forth from the land of Egypt have wrought iniquity: they have transgressed quickly out of the way which thou didst command unto them: they have made for themselves molten images. And the Lord said unto him; I have spoken unto thee once and twice, saying, I have seen this people, and behold it is stiff-necked. Let Me destroy them utterly, and I will blot out their name from under heaven, and I will make of thee a nation great and wonderful and numerous more than this. And Moses said; Nay, not so, Lord Forgive this people their sin, or blot me also out of the book of the living.
Oh mighty love! O unsurpassable perfection! The servant is bold with his Master; he asketh forgiveness for the multitude, or he demandeth that himself also be blotted out with them."

There is no doubt 1st Clement clearly links the sacred scriptures to Moses by direct quotes.

Clement mentions Sacred Scripture, and then he goes on to talk about Moses, then he talks about Judith, and then he talks about Esther.

Then afterwards, he then mentions the fact that he just gave some examples from the “writings that contain God’s revelatory education.”

 

[Origen]

Clement mentions Sacred Scripture, and then he goes on to talk about Moses, then he talks about Judith, and then he talks about Esther.

Wrong. He mentions Sacred Scripture and THEN DIRECTLY QUOTES from Deuteronomy 9 and Exodus 32, not Judith. After that, two chapters latter, he mention the person Judith.

Chapter 53
"For ye know, and know well, the sacred scriptures, dearly beloved, and ye have searched into the oracles of God. We write these things therefore to put you in remembrance. When Moses went up into the mountain and had spent forty days and forty nights in fasting and humiliation, God said unto him; Moses, Moses, come down , quickly hence, for My people whom thou leadest forth from the land of Egypt have wrought iniquity: they have transgressed quickly out of the way which thou didst command unto them: they have made for themselves molten images. And the Lord said unto him; I have spoken unto thee once and twice, saying, I have seen this people, and behold it is stiff-necked. Let Me destroy them utterly, and I will blot out their name from under heaven, and I will make of thee a nation great and wonderful and numerous more than this. And Moses said; Nay, not so, Lord Forgive this people their sin, or blot me also out of the book of the living. Oh mighty love! Oh unsurpassable perfection! The servant is bold with his Master; he asketh forgiveness for the multitude, or he demandeth that himself also be blotted out with them."

 

[Origen]

Clement was directly discipled by Paul himself, and mentioned him by name in Philippians 4:3.

Let's discuss the above comment.

In Philippians 4:3 Paul refers to that Clement as a "fellow worker." Paul NEVER claims Clement was directly discipled by him.

 

[NathanH83]

Wrong. He mentions Sacred Scripture and THEN DIRECTLY QUOTES from Deuteronomy 9 and Exodus 32, not Judith. After that, two chapters latter, he mention the person Judith.

Chapter 53
"For ye know, and know well, the sacred scriptures, dearly beloved, and ye have searched into the oracles of God. We write these things therefore to put you in remembrance. When Moses went up into the mountain and had spent forty days and forty nights in fasting and humiliation, God said unto him; Moses, Moses, come down , quickly hence, for My people whom thou leadest forth from the land of Egypt have wrought iniquity: they have transgressed quickly out of the way which thou didst command unto them: they have made for themselves molten images. And the Lord said unto him; I have spoken unto thee once and twice, saying, I have seen this people, and behold it is stiff-necked. Let Me destroy them utterly, and I will blot out their name from under heaven, and I will make of thee a nation great and wonderful and numerous more than this. And Moses said; Nay, not so, Lord Forgive this people their sin, or blot me also out of the book of the living. Oh mighty love! Oh unsurpassable perfection! The servant is bold with his Master; he asketh forgiveness for the multitude, or he demandeth that himself also be blotted out with them."

Clement mentions the fact that he’s going to call to remembrance some things from sacred scripture.

Then he mentions Moses, then Judith, then Esther.

Then AFTER mentioning them, he says:

“In this manner our forbears, mentioned above, were acceptable and cherished a humble frame of mind toward the Father and God and Creator and all mankind. And we have all the more pleasure in recalling this to your memory because we are well aware that we are writing to persons who are believers and highly distinguished and deeply versed in the writings that contain God’s educative revelation.”

 

[Josiah]

He mentioned Judith and called it Sacred scripture, right alongside Esther.

False. You yourself proved that's false. Don't you believe the video you submitted?

According to you, in one chapter he mentions "Holy Scripture" (never defining or describing such). TWO CHAPTERS LATER (not at all "in the same breath") he mentions two PEOPLE. Sorry, but you gave the proof that your claim is entirely baseless, unsubstantiated, false.



.

 

[NathanH83]

False. You yourself proved that's false. Don't you believe the video you submitted?

According to you, in one chapter he mentions "Holy Scripture" (never defining or describing such). TWO CHAPTERS LATER (not at all "in the same breath") he mentions two PEOPLE. Sorry, but you gave the proof that your claim is entirely baseless, unsubstantiated, false.



.

Read post #10.

You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.

Clement refers to Moses, Judith, and Esther as sacred scripture, then afterwards calls them the writings that contain God’s revelatory education.

 

[TonyC7]

Wow. This is quite compelling. Admittedly, I was postulating that the Roman Catholic bishops had added these books some time in the 300's, which would account for the regional synods that you keep citing. But now I see that Clement, a man who was a direct acquaintance of Paul, reverences the book of Judith as if on the same level as Esther. I did not know this. Quite compelling. I need to look into this further. I would be hard pressed to say Roman Catholicism is responsible for these additional writings when those who knew the disciples personally had reverenced them in a manner such as this. I really don't know what to think anymore.

 

[Josiah]

But now I see that Clement, a man who was a direct acquaintance of Paul,

We have zero evidence that the Clement spoken of in Philippians is the same man who wrote the epistle Nathan abuses. "Clement" was a very popular male name.

Some things to consider....

+ The Clement who wrote the epistle NEVER mentions knowing Paul or even meeting him. odd since it would give him credence.

+ Nathan's speculation is not unique BUT the first time this guess was made was more than a century after these men died by one who could not have known if they were the same guy.

+ The Catholic Church (who believes Clement is an early pope of their church and a saint), do not hold he is the same guy as Paul mentions.

When I was a teen, I had a surfing buddy named "Donnie." If I wrote,"I used to surf with Donny" he'd make a foundational point of insisting I knew Donald Trump. That's about as silly as this gets.

reverences the book of Judith as if on the same level as Esther

As Nathan (oddly) chose to prove, Clement did neither. He mentions two women.... he says nothing about the books of Judith or Esther. And he certainly doesn't say that both books are the inerrant, fully canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God and there must be an international law to mandate that all publishing houses include all the books mentioned in Article 6 of the 39 Articles in every tome with "BIBLE" written on the cover - all those books and nothing but those books.

Consider: If I posted "Abraham Lincoln was tall" that would NOT mean I ergo am speaking not of a man but of a book by that name (there are several books with the moniker of "Abraham Lincoln" or "A.Lincoln" or "Lincoln" - none of which are the man). Clearly, in the snippet Nathan offers, the author is speaking of two ladies in the same breath. TWO CHAPTERS earlier he mentions "Sacred Scripture" but that's not "in the same breath" as he claims, it's TWO CHAPTERS earlier. Where Esther and Judith are mentioned, he is obviously speaking of women, of people - not books. And as Nathan proved, he says nothing about anything being "on the same level" to Nathan doesn't say.

I would be hard pressed to say Roman Catholicism is responsible for these additional writings

Roman Catholicism is not responsible for the BOOKS of Clement, Esther or Judith. The RCC is not the issue here. And actually, the set of books Nathan insists upon is the Bible of the CHURCH OF ENGLAND (not the Catholic Church) as declared in 1536, the 1611 edition of the King James Version Bible - the unique bible of the Church of England, quite different than that of the Catholic Church.




- Josiah




.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Because it is.

 

[NathanH83]

+ Nathan's speculation is not unique BUT the first time this guess was made was more than a century after these men died by one who could not have known if they were the same guy.


- Josiah




.

Clement of Rome:
Born 35 AD
Died 99 AD

Saul of Tarsus:
Born 5 AD
Died 64 AD


Stop spreading false information.
They did not live more than a century apart. Clement was born about 30 years before Paul died. Obviously their lifespans overlapped.

 

[Josiah]

Clement of Rome:
Born 35 AD
Died 99 AD

Saul of Tarsus:
Born 5 AD
Died 64 AD


Stop spreading false information.

At least you admit you don't read what others post.... but others do and so know that I never said that Paul and St. Clement were not contemporaries. You simply have no clue what others say because you don't know what they say (or care). Others know that what I said is the the first one to speculate that the "Clement" spoken of in Philippians is St. Clement of Rome could have been the same guy did so about a century AFTER St. Clement's death and he knew neither.... the next single case of such a speculation is a century after that. I simply noted that your guess is not completely new but is unfounded.....

But the point is not important since you yourself proved that First Clement never remotely says that the Book of Judith is "Sacred Scripture." You went to some lengths to prove your whole weird claim is false. I can understand why you don't read what others say to you (might show you are wrong) but it's just so odd that you don't even read what YOU post.... evident here or you would know that video doesn't prove that St. Clement is the man mentioned in Philippians OR that the Book of Judith is Scripture or that the Book of Judith is "on the same level" as anything.






.

 

[Origen]

Then AFTER mentioning them, he says:

“In this manner our forbears, mentioned above, were acceptable and cherished a humble frame of mind toward the Father and God and Creator and all mankind. And we have all the more pleasure in recalling this to your memory because we are well aware that we are writing to persons who are believers and highly distinguished and deeply versed in the writings that contain God’s educative revelation.”

Clement refers to Moses, Judith, and Esther as sacred scripture, then afterwards calls them the writings that contain God’s revelatory education.

As usual your claim goes FAR BEYOND what the text actually states. Clement does not call them "the writings that contain God’s revelatory education." Rather he simply acknowledges that his readers to be well versed in those writings. He states: "we are writing to persons who are believers and highly distinguished and deeply versed in the writings." That is it. Your claim stretches the limits of credibility.


Moreover if anyone were to follow your erroneous claim to it logical conclusion, it would yield most unfavorable results. For example:

And again he says, “I am only steam from a pot.” (17:6)

WHERE EXACTLY can this quote (which Clement claims comes from Moses) be found in the Old Testament?



Or how about this one:

Let this scripture be far from us where it says, “Wretched are the double-minded, those who doubt in their soul and say, ‘We heard these things even in the days of our fathers, and look, we have grown old, and none of these things have happened to us.’ 4 You fools, compare yourselves to a tree, or take a vine: first it sheds its leaves, then a shoot comes, then a leaf, then a flower, and after these a sour grape, and then a full ripe bunch.” (23:3-4)

WHERE EXACTLY can this so-called "scripture" be found in the Old Testament?

 

[Origen]

Stop spreading false information.
They did not live more than a century apart. Clement was born about 30 years before Paul died. Obviously their lifespans overlapped.

Try actually reading what he wrote. That is not what @Josiah said.

He said "the first time this guess was made was more than a century after these men died."

 

[Origen]

At least you admit you don't read what others post...

There is no doubt about that and he just proved it. This is also a problem he has when quoting sources.