Why does the book of Revelation say that you can anoint your eyes with medicine to cure blindness?

[Lamb]

Anyway, it’s something to think about. The book of Revelation does provide at least some verification for this eye remedy from the book of Tobit.

It verifies nothing for Tobit. You are stretching things in order to try to make it fit.

 

[NathanH83]

You claim the Protestant bible is not complete enough to know Jesus and His salvation? And yet you can't say HOW the Apocyrpha points to Jesus?

You see, this is exactly what I mean. You’re not listening. You’re unwilling to understand.

Maccabees provides historical information necessary for understanding Daniel’s prophecies. Tobit provides the story that Hebrews 13:2 was referencing. 2 Maccabees 7 provides the story that Hebrews 11:35 is referencing.

The Bible is not complete when books have been removed from it.

I agree that the Old and New Testament are sufficient. But Maccabees and Tobit are a part of that Old Testament, and it’s incomplete without them.

You can take Job or Esther out of your Bible, and yet you can still get to heaven. That doesn’t mean your Bible is complete.

You can’t show how Job points to Christ, or how Esther points you to Christ. You can’t show how the story of Balaam’s donkey points to Christ. But you know it’s part of the Old Testament, because the New Testament references Balaam’s donkey.

I challenge you to show how every single book and every single story in the Old Testament points you Christ. You can’t do it.

 

[NathanH83]

It verifies nothing for Tobit. You are stretching things in order to try to make it fit.

Nothing? Nothing at all?

It shows how the people of that time were aware that there were eye salves that people anointed their eyes with to cure certain types of blindness.

If that’s not strangely and oddly similar to the exact thing Tobit talks about, then I don’t know what is.

Again, you’re being completely obstinately unwilling to understand.

The same logic people use to discredit Tobit can also be used against Revelation. But they don’t because they have a double standard.

 

[Lamb]

You see, this is exactly what I mean. You’re not listening. You’re unwilling to understand.

Maccabees provides historical information necessary for understanding Daniel’s prophecies. Tobit provides the story that Hebrews 13:2 was referencing. 2 Maccabees 7 provides the story that Hebrews 11:35 is referencing.

The Bible is not complete when books have been removed from it.

I agree that the Old and New Testament are sufficient. But Maccabees and Tobit are a part of that Old Testament, and it’s incomplete without them.

You can take Job or Esther out of your Bible, and yet you can still get to heaven. That doesn’t mean your Bible is complete.

You can’t show how Job points to Christ, or how Esther points you to Christ. You can’t show how the story of Balaam’s donkey points to Christ. But you know it’s part of the Old Testament, because the New Testament references Balaam’s donkey.

I challenge you to show how every single book and every single story in the Old Testament points you Christ. You can’t do it.

Jesus in Every Book of the Bible

God reveals Himself in every book of the Bible. Here is a complete list of how Jesus shows up in every book of the Bible.

www.biblestudytools.com

Jesus in every book of the Bible

The Bible is about Jesus. He is spoken of or pictured in every book of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation - See what prophecies, types and titles are given to the Lord Jesus in all the books of the Bible here!

jesusplusnothing.com

Every Book of the Bible Is About Jesus | JD Greear Ministries

Just after his resurrection, Jesus appeared to a couple of his disciples on the road to Emmaus, and began to explain to them—from Moses and...

jdgreear.com

Jesus in the 66 Books of the Bible

 

[NathanH83]

Jesus in Every Book of the Bible

God reveals Himself in every book of the Bible. Here is a complete list of how Jesus shows up in every book of the Bible.

www.biblestudytools.com

Jesus in every book of the Bible

The Bible is about Jesus. He is spoken of or pictured in every book of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation - See what prophecies, types and titles are given to the Lord Jesus in all the books of the Bible here!

jesusplusnothing.com

Every Book of the Bible Is About Jesus | JD Greear Ministries

Just after his resurrection, Jesus appeared to a couple of his disciples on the road to Emmaus, and began to explain to them—from Moses and...

jdgreear.com

Jesus in the 66 Books of the Bible

“Esther – Protector of his people”

Well, that’s pretty simple.

I could easily say:
“Tobit - Healer of his people”

After all, both Tobit and Sarah prayed, and God sent his angel Raphael.
“Rapha” means healing
“El” means God.
So his name means “Healer God.”
Think of the name “Jehovah Rapha.”
And Raphael brought healing to them both.

See, I didn’t know you were talking about plain and simple things like this. I thought you were talking about direct Messianic prophecies like Daniel 9 or Isaiah 53.

In that case, then I can agree that every book of the Bible points to Christ, including the books that you call Apocrypha.

It also says “Joshua – Commander of the army of the Lord”

Well, shoot. I could say something similar about Maccabees also. The Lord led the armies of Judas Maccabee.

“Maccabees– Commander of the army of the Lord”

“Maccabees - the one who wins victory in battle”

Judas answered, “It’s easy for many to be trapped by a few. In the sight of heaven, it makes no difference to win by many or by few. It’s not the size of the army that brings victory in battle, because strength comes from heaven. They’re coming against us with a lot of pride and evil. They want to destroy us, along with our wives and children. They want to ruin us. But we are fighting for our lives and for our laws. The heavenly one himself will crush them before us. Don’t be afraid of them.”
1 Maccabees 3:18-22 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Maccabees 3:18-22 - Common English Bible

 

[NathanH83]

“The heavenly one himself will crush them before us. Don’t be afraid of them.”
-1 Maccabees 3:22

“Maccabees - the Judge who lays down the hammer and crushes our enemies before us”

(Maccabee means hammer)

 

[Andrew]

I believe the question is in response to @atpollard who argued in an earlier thread that.. in the case of the book of Tobit, the ointment is either a miracle or a medicine (but cannot be both)..

Nathan points out in the book of Revelation that a medical term is used although it has a spiritual and a rather miraculous sub context, the point being that such is the case with Tobit, an angel of God "Gabriel" being entertained (hidden identity) calls the eye ointment "medicine"

It was later that John fell down to worship the messenger, and just as Gabriel and other Angels before him had prompted "I am thy fellow servant of the Lord, worship God alone" and such is the case in the book of Tobit... Gabriel declares BEFORE Revelation was written that HE is ONE of the SEVEN ANGELS who worship before the throne of GOD!

 

[NathanH83]

I believe the question is in response to @atpollard who argued in an earlier thread that.. in the case of the book of Tobit, the ointment is either a miracle or a medicine (but cannot be both)..

Nathan points out in the book of Revelation that a medical term is used although it has a spiritual and a rather miraculous sub context, the point being that such is the case with Tobit, an angel of God "Gabriel" being entertained (hidden identity) calls the eye ointment "medicine"

It was later that John fell down to worship the messenger, and just as Gabriel and other Angels before him had prompted "I am thy fellow servant of the Lord, worship God alone" and such is the case in the book of Tobit... Gabriel declares BEFORE Revelation was written that HE is ONE of the SEVEN ANGELS who worship before the throne of GOD!

I was listening to a pastor say that Tobit is bad, because Tobit and Tobias bowed down before Raphael with their face to the ground.

He said that shouldn’t happen.

Ironically, he didn’t seem to know that both Abraham and Lot bowed down with their face to the ground when encountering angels…..but that’s ok, because after all, they’re in the Bible!

 

[Josiah]

You see, this is exactly what I mean. You’re not listening. You’re unwilling to understand.

I think it's obvious you have this reversed.

Maccabees provides historical information necessary for understanding Daniel’s prophecies.

1. It's not the ONLY place where this can be found.

2. I've read some stuff where people have prophecies all figured out... and in every case, they PRIMARILY use materials not found in the books listed in Article 6 of the Thirty-Nine Articles of 1563 of the Church of England, the books you claim must be required to be published in every tome with "BIBLE" on the cover and only those books. You yourself have used videos and other materials to help understand prophecies but none of those are listed in Article 6.

The Bible is not complete when books have been removed from it.

There is ONLY ONE denomination on the entire planet that put "IN" the unique set of books you think should be legally required of all publishing houses around the world to appear in any tome with the word "BIBLE" written on the cover, and that ONE church is the Church of England and that wasn't until 1563 when it (alone) adopted Article 6 of its Thirty-Nine Articles. And again, you are just flat out WRONG, that church (the only one that you agree with on this) has NEVER changed Article 6 of it's Thirty-Nine Articles, it NEVER removed any book from Article six, it has never modified Article 6. The ONLY church that put IN your unique set NEVER took anything out. You are just factually and historically WRONG (not that you ever care about such).

As you admitted and I've agreed, publishing houses sometimes include things most don't consider canonical and sometimes exclude things many think are (or maybe just good to read). What is in or not in the publication of some publishing house is a pretty lousy way to determine what is the inerrant, fully/equally canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God.

Maccabees and Tobit are a part of that Old Testament,

You (finally!) stated WHAT specific books you accept that must be legally mandated to be in every book published with the word "BIBLE" appearing on the cover, it's the list found in Article 6 of the 39 Articles of the Church of England. And that's a LOT more than just one of the 4 books of Maccabees and the book of Tobit. And that Article that is your positive specifically states they are NOT, read N.0.T. part of the Old Testament.

Just because you make some (entirely baseless) claim over and over and over and over and over - like a broken record - does not mean it doesn't matter if it's true, it's entirely exempt from any need of subsrantiation, and we just gotta swallow it.




.

 

[NathanH83]

I think it's obvious you have this reversed.




1. It's not the ONLY place where this can be found.

2. I've read some stuff where people have prophecies all figured out... and in every case, they PRIMARILY use materials not found in the books listed in Article 6 of the Thirty-Nine Articles of 1563 of the Church of England, the books you claim must be required to be published in every tome with "BIBLE" on the cover and only those books. You yourself have used videos and other materials to help understand prophecies but none of those are listed in Article 6.





There is ONLY ONE denomination on the entire planet that put "IN" the unique set of books you think should be legally required of all publishing houses around the world to appear in any tome with the word "BIBLE" written on the cover, and that ONE church is the Church of England and that wasn't until 1563 when it (alone) adopted Article 6 of its Thirty-Nine Articles. And again, you are just flat out WRONG, that church (the only one that you agree with on this) has NEVER changed Article 6 of it's Thirty-Nine Articles, it NEVER removed any book from Article six, it has never modified Article 6. The ONLY church that put IN your unique set NEVER took anything out. You are just factually and historically WRONG (not that you ever care about such).

As you admitted and I've agreed, publishing houses sometimes include things most don't consider canonical and sometimes exclude things





You (finally!) stated WHAT specific books you accept that must be legally mandated to be in every book published with the word "BIBLE" appearing on the cover, it's the list found in Article 6 of the 39 Articles of the Church of England. And that's a LOT more than just one of the 4 books of Maccabees and the book of Tobit. And that Article that is your positive specifically states they are NOT, read N.0.T. part of the Old Testament.

Just because you make some (entirely baseless) claim over and over and over and over and over - like a broken record - does not mean it doesn't matter if it's true, it's entirely exempt from any need of subsrantiation, and we just gotta swallow it.




.

Why do you sound so angry?
What are you so mad about?

We’re discussing the Bible. No need to throw a tantrum.

 

[NathanH83]

Every Christian Bible included the book of Tobit, from the start of Christianity until the 1800’s, when in 1885 the Bible societies decided to remove the Apocryphal section from the King James.

But every single Christian Bible had the book of Tobit.

All 3 of the most ancient copies of the Septuagint contained Tobit. All 3 of them! Vaticanus, Alexandrinus, and Sinaiticus.

Catholic Bibles include Tobit.
Eastern Orthodox Bibles include Tobit
Coptic Bibles include Tobit
Russian Orthodox Bibles include Tobit
Ethiopian Bibles include Tobit.

And yes, even Protestant Bibles included Tobit.

Every single Protestant Bible that came out of the Protestant Reformation from the 1500’s and 1600’s included the book of Tobit (in the apocryphal section)

The King James
Geneva
Coverdale
Bidhop’s
Webster’s
The Great Bible
Mathews Bible
Luther’s German Bible
Wycliffe

These are all Protestant Bibles from around the time of the Reformation. They all included the Apocryphal section.

Every single Protestant Bible included Tobit in the apocryphal section.

The ONLY time that the book of Tobit was not included in Christian Bibles IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH, was in the 1900’s, and the tail end of the 1800’s, and of course the early 2000’s.

 

[NathanH83]

In Revelation, even Jesus himself acknowledged That there is a certain salve or medicine that can be put on the eyes to heal certain eye conditions. And that’s what the book of Tobit says.

But they say Tobit is endorsing MAGICAL POTIONS!

 

[Josiah]

Every Christian Bible included

.... NO Christian Bible had the exact set of books you claim must legally required to be included in every tome with the word "BIBLE" found on the cover... those and nothing else... the EXACT set proclaimed by Article 6 of the 39 Articles of the Church of England in 1563). NO tome prior to 1563 had that exact set of books in it.

And you miss that Article 6 - that IS your position on what must and must not appear in any tome with BIBLE written on the cover - states that all beyond the 66 are NOT canonical.... NOT..... N.... O.... T.... canonical..... NOT equal to the 66.... NOT in the same category.... NOT to be used canonically. They are EXTRAS good to read but NOT inerrant, NOT canonical, NOT the divinely-inscripturated words of God. The Anglican Book of Common Prayer is OFTEN found in Anglican tomes with "BIBLE" written on the cover, too. That doesn't mean ERGO every Bible from 33 AD had that in it....or that the ECF therefore all used it... or that the Council of Rome declared it to be inerrant, fully canonical, inscripturated words of God.

in 1885 the Bible societies decided to remove the Apocryphal section from the King James.

Take that up with those Bible societies...... none of which an agency of the Church of England. None of which are posters here at CH.

And NEWS FLASH.... again..... I know this is shocking news to you... you can still buy a Bible with ALL the books and ONLY the books mentioned by name in Article 6 of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England in 1563. Nope, no one ripped them out. If you choose to not buy one of these publications, THAT'S YOUR CHOICE... you have one and only one to blame for you not owning one of those tomes... need help identifying who that is? I suspect you do.




.




.

 

[NathanH83]

.... NO Christian Bible had the exact set of books you claim must legally required to be included in every tome with the word "BIBLE" found on the cover... those and nothing else... the EXACT set proclaimed by Article 6 of the 39 Articles of the Church of England in 1563). NO tome prior to 1563 had that exact set of books in it.

And you miss that Article 6 - that IS your position on what must and must not appear in any tome with BIBLE written on the cover - states that all beyond the 66 are NOT canonical.... NOT..... N.... O.... T.... canonical..... NOT equal to the 66.... NOT in the same category.... NOT to be used canonically. They are EXTRAS good to read but NOT inerrant, NOT canonical, NOT the divinely-inscripturated words of God. The Anglican Book of Common Prayer is OFTEN found in Anglican tomes with "BIBLE" written on the cover, too. That doesn't mean ERGO every Bible from 33 AD had that in it....or that the ECF therefore all used it... or that the Council of Rome declared it to be inerrant, fully canonical, inscripturated words of God.





Take that up with those Bible societies...... none of which an agency of the Church of England. None of which are posters here at CH.

And NEWS FLASH.... again..... I know this is shocking news to you... you can still buy a Bible with ALL the books and ONLY the books mentioned by name in Article 6 of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England in 1563. Nope, no one ripped them out. If you choose to not buy one of these publications, THAT'S YOUR CHOICE... you have one and only one to blame for you not owning one of those tomes... need help identifying who that is? I suspect you do.




.




.

I said, “Every Christian Bible had the book of Tobit”

Stop taking my words out of context.

 

[Josiah]

I said, “Every Christian Bible had the book of Tobit”

I realize you are ALREADY abandoning your position on what is and is not to be legally required to be in every tome with BIBLE written on the cover. After a YEAR of asking you - MANY TIMES - always evaded, ignored, dodged... you finally said the ones in the Anglican KJB of 1611, which are the books listed in Article 6 of the 39 Articles of the Church of England in 1563 AND NOWHERE ELSE and NEVER BEFORE. And as we all know, that's a lot more than just the book of Tobit. Is the Prayer of Manassah in EVERY tome found from 33 AD? Is it listed by every Early Church Father? By the Council of Hippo and Rome? In the Geneva Bible? Who went into every parish, gathered up the pew Bibles and ripped out that book that you said should be in every Bible? You said the books that were in the KJV of 1611 are the books you embrace.... not JUST Tobit. Funny how you can't agree with any, not even yourself. It took over a YEAR to pin you down as to WHAT books you are talking about and within minutes. you abandoned your own position.




.

 

[Andrew]

I realize you are ALREADY abandoning your position on what is and is not to be legally required to be in every tome with BIBLE written on the cover. After a YEAR of asking you - MANY TIMES - always evaded, ignored, dodged... you finally said the ones in the Anglican KJB of 1611, which are the books listed in Article 6 of the 39 Articles of the Church of England in 1563 AND NOWHERE ELSE and NEVER BEFORE. And as we all know, that's a lot more than just the book of Tobit. Is the Prayer of Manassah in EVERY tome found from 33 AD? Is it listed by every Early Church Father? By the Council of Hippo and Rome? In the Geneva Bible? Who went into every parish, gathered up the pew Bibles and ripped out that book that you said should be in every Bible? You said the books that were in the KJV of 1611 are the books you embrace.... not JUST Tobit. Funny how you can't agree with any, not even yourself. It took over a YEAR to pin you down as to WHAT books you are talking about and within minutes. you abandoned your own position.




.

All Christian Bibles did include Tobit, why does that frustrate you so much?

 

[atpollard]

The ONLY time that the book of Tobit was not included in Christian Bibles IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH, was in the 1900’s, and the tail end of the 1800’s, and of course the early 2000’s.

…and the first four Christian centuries (there was no “Bible”).

 

[Andrew]

…and the first four Christian centuries (there was no “Bible”).

There was an LXX, same concept, just scrolls bound together into books, Ta Biblia (the books)

 

[NathanH83]

…and the first four Christian centuries (there was no “Bible”).

Both Latin and Greek Bibles have been found from the first four centuries, and they all contained Tobit. You can’t show one that didn’t.

 

[Origen]

Both Latin and Greek Bibles have been found from the first four centuries

False. We have none that predate the 4th century A.D.

and they all contained Tobit.

Also false. We have no Greek manuscripts of Tobit that predate the 4th century A.D.

You can’t show one that didn’t.

Which means, given your comments above, you have no objective evidence.

There was an LXX, same concept, just scrolls bound together into books, Ta Biblia (the books)

That is not how a codex was made. They did not use scrolls.

The oldest Bible in the world is Codex Sinaiticus and it dates to the 4th century A.D.

Codex Sinaiticus | Earliest Known Biblical Manuscript | Britannica

Codex Sinaiticus, the earliest known manuscript of the Christian Bible, compiled in the 4th century ce. In 1844, 43 leaves of a 4th-century biblical codex (a collection of single pages bound together along one side) were discovered at St. Catherine’s Monastery at the foot of Mount Sinai (hence the

www.britannica.com