For Those Who Have Not Been Healed

[tango]

Sorry I was away for a while, busy couple of days.

that's it ? one reference to timothy again- a verse in a text that is not even on the subject of divine healing . a person that you have no idea if he was later healed by taking paul's advice -all you have is that single assumption id the face of all the scriptures .
for the "how many times " now .. i have never said God always heals ..i have always said .. Gods word is true and he is faithful to it . sometimes the lord allows trouble and sickness to come (again read the book of Job).and we are taught through it to trust i him all the more because he works all things together for good to those who are called in his purposes .

A verse doesn't have to explicitly state "now listen guys, this is about healing" for us to realise it is relevant to the topic. If Timothy taking a little wine eased the problem of his "frequent infirmities" then that's no different to going to the doctor today.

I never disputed that God's word is true, that's a diversion that does little more than throw up the same strawman we've seen before. The disagreement here isn't over whether God's word is true, it isn't over whether God is faithful to his word, it isn't even over whether God heals. The issue under discussion is whether God heals all the time. And if you want to claim that he does, then every single counterexample has to be explained. As I said before, Timothy is just one counterexample. I know several people personally who represent more counterexamples.

How about we stay focussed on the actual issue and stop with the strawmen? It would make it so much easier than endlessly knocking down the strawmen.

so what do you wish me to say to the one who seeks to be healed from their suffering and has not been so YET.. do you wish me to say ..oh well you must be cursed by god ..give up believing and cast off your faith .. sounds like Jobs wife .

No, you're throwing up strawmen again. If they haven't been healed yet it may be that God will heal them, it may be that God's plan is that they are not healed. Look at people like Joni Eareckson Tada (I may have misspelled her name), paralysed since her teenage years following a diving accident, not healed, and content to be whatever God wants her to be. Look at Laura Story and her comments about her husband's brain tumor being a platform for ministry they could never have dreamed. Hey, since you mentioned Job, what happened to "the Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord"?

no i will not ever say that .
i will say seek and you shall find .. ask and it shall be given unto you ..knock and the door will be opened -hold fast in faith and only believe in the lord god most high ,for your redeemer lives and your deliverer draws near . do not be afraid do not be discouraged only believe .

So what do you say to the person who still hasn't been healed 50 years later? Do you want to continue to promise them jam tomorrow, maybe? There's nothing wrong with asking to be healed, but if we put our will before God's will we may miss all sorts of blessings coming from unexpected sources. The person I mentioned further up in the thread who has been lame since birth and now has serious upper body issues due to carrying their weight on crutches could have sat around doing nothing, trusting in a non-existent promise that God always heals. Or they could have got out there and been salt and light in the world despite their predicament. They chose the latter, and accept that God can use them in their current state in ways that he may not have used them had they received the healing so many claim is a guarantee.

 

[tango]

I think that we need to trust ourselves a little more. I think that the desire to see people healed, if that desire springs from the right source, produces an internal tension that is healthy. "You have not because you ask not." That tension brings us into seeking god and relying upon Him.

That's a good point, although it doesn't logically follow that we will automatically have just because we asked. If God wants us to be in a particular place, however much we might prefer not to be in that place, he isn't going to give us the easy out just because we feel like following an easier path. Just as when Jesus asked God to take the cup of suffering from him, we need to be willing to say "not my will but yours be done". If we're only going to follow God for as long as he provides perfect health (or wealth, or whatever other earthly desires we have) we're not really getting the whole "take up your cross and follow me" idea.

I think this is a valid concern. John writes that there were many more acts that Jesus performed, but he recorded these so that we would believe and believing would be saved. Likewise, when Jesus gives the commission to go out he says, these things will follow those who believe, that they would lay on hand and people would be healed. The problem is that truly miraculous healing is almost unknown in the United States. This is the basis of my belief that healing ought to be more common in the practice of our faith, so that those healings would be a sign to the unbeliever.

In many ways I think miraculous healing should be almost unknown as far as the media is concerned. The trouble with so many of the huge international "ministries" is that they can so easily lose focus on what is right around them. When we look at the crippled man healed at the Beautiful Gate in Acts 3 we see a man who everybody knew was lame, everybody knew had been there for years, and everybody could see had been healed. How does that work with a huge rally where 50,000 people who don't know each other ram into a stadium, the presenter calls forth a few vague words that statistics alone say are pretty much guaranteed to have at least one match, and someone that nobody else knows goes forward for healing? By the time the crowd has been hyped into an emotional frenzy by an hour of upbeat repetitive music, given all the line about "being expectant" and having the whole event hyped for some time they're looking for something even if it isn't there. So if a planted stooge goes forward and is "miraculously healed" there's no way of telling the difference between that and a genuine case of miraculous healing.

From my own experience another major issue with these kinds of rallies is the total lack of followup. It's as if they are little more than a circus in town looking to count the people who go forward, chalk them up on an earthly scoreboard and then move on leaving Someone Else to deal with the questions, the uncertainty, and the people confused because the huge move of God vanished after a couple of days. If the huge move of God vanished with the presenter, chances are it was an emotional response disguised as a spiritual response.

I don't dispute that healings can and do happen, but the passage about "these signs will follow" from the end of Mark 16 need to be used carefully because some scholars question whether they were in the original manuscripts.

There is at least one incident in Jesus ministry when he passed by a cripple and did not heal him, and there are numerous instances in the Epistles. This eliminates the idea that god always heals. The previous comment, on the great commission, eliminates the premise that God never heals.

That's pretty much what I'm saying too. If we say "God never heals" we need to explain every single time that God does heal because each one, in isolation, breaks the theory. Likewise if we say "God always heals" we need to explain every single time God does not heal for the same reason. "God sometimes heals" appears entirely consistent with what we read in Scripture and what we see around us. We might like to see God healing more frequently, but even if God were to heal 99.9% of the time it would still not be true to say "God always heals".

I do not think these two passages (Isaiah and James) are in conflict. James postulates that we ought not to expect an answer without faith, yet we understand that there were healings in the Bible in which the receiver did not believe and there were healing in the Bible in which the "healer" was not actively aware. As for Isaiah, I agree that the primary expression of this healing is spiritual. What I don't believe is that it is addressing what would facilitate healing and what would inhibit it. If god chooses, he can heal, yet at times he chooses as a response to something else.

The two passages only conflict if James is interpreted as saying we will always be healed if we have faith, and Isaiah is interpreted as saying we are guaranteed physical healing because of Jesus' stripes. Hence my conclusion is that those interpretations of the passages are wrong.

Jesus told one of those who he healed to go and sin no more. If God gives me a gift, I am still responsible for how I handle it. If I continue to do that which is destroying my body, then I am treating his gift with disrespect. I know that His grace is sufficient for this, but still believe that there are times when we must face the consequences of our own actions.

I agree with you, although for those who believe in the premise that God always heals without exception that idea doesn't work because if God guarantees healing unconditionally then it doesn't matter if we continue to abuse our bodies because God will make it all go away. So if God performs a miracle and makes your lung cancer go away you don't need to quit smoking because if you get cancer again God will just make it go away again.

 

[Alithis]

Faith isn't mentioned. Try again.

it is rightfully assumed -without faith the conversation would even exist what is not of faith ..is sin

 

[Hammster]

it is rightfully assumed -without faith the conversation would even exist what is not of faith ..is sin

It's presupposed. If God's people are healed (spiritually) by His wounds, then everyone He died for is healed. That better fits the context of the whole passage.

 

[charis en excelcis]

Whatever your view of healing, I would encourage all to not ever make healing a matter of condemnation nor a matter of pride.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Whatever your view of healing, I would encourage all to not ever make healing a matter of condemnation nor a matter of pride.

Since healing gifts are gifts of God's grace towards undeserving yet suffering human beings they can never be a cause of pride in one's self or a reason to boast of one's own faith.

 

[seekingsolace]

Since healing gifts are gifts of God's grace towards undeserving yet suffering human beings they can never be a cause of pride in one's self or a reason to boast of one's own faith.

Yet people do, saddening.

 

[psalms 91]

I agree with that, Jesus who did what the Father did healed as He went.

 

[Lamb]

When we ask for something and the Lord provides, it is because what we are asking is in line with God's will. If it's not God's will, He doesn't give it to us, so it's not about how much faith we have but whether we are in line with God's will and plan for us.

 

[psalms 91]

That is a large part of wehy we dont recieve but not the only reason by far. We need to know Gods will in any situation whether it be what we should do with our lives or what that little extra money is to be used for

 

[Hebrews 11]

When we ask for something and the Lord provides, it is because what we are asking is in line with God's will. If it's not God's will, He doesn't give it to us, so it's not about how much faith we have but whether we are in line with God's will and plan for us.

We know God's will by having knowledge of God's Word.

It is not God's will for sickness to prosper against ,if God was responsible for sickness ,He would have worked against himself when Christ healed the sick.

Sickness is a result of sin entering this world through Adam who gave his dominion to Satan , the God of this World.

Through Christ we have been given Devine authority over the curse of sin and death.
We do not serve a God who changes his mind,or his Word.
We do not serve a God who fails,we fail God by unbelief or false teaching.

Our enemy has come to steal, kill ,and destroy yet he can do nothing without our help.
Our healing has been done for over 2000 years ,yet many have more faith in what the devil does than what God has done.

 

[psalms 91]

We know God's will by having knowledge of God's Word.

It is not God's will for sickness to prosper against ,if God was responsible for sickness ,He would have worked against himself when Christ healed the sick.

Sickness is a result of sin entering this world through Adam who gave his dominion to Satan , the God of this World.

Through Christ we have been given Devine authority over the curse of sin and death.
We do not serve a God who changes his mind,or his Word.
We do not serve a God who fails,we fail God by unbelief or false teaching.

Our enemy has come to steal, kill ,and destroy yet he can do nothing without our help.
Our healing has been done for over 2000 years ,yet many have more faith in what the devil does than what God has done.

Excellent

 

[tango]

We know God's will by having knowledge of God's Word.

It is not God's will for sickness to prosper against ,if God was responsible for sickness ,He would have worked against himself when Christ healed the sick.

Sickness is a result of sin entering this world through Adam who gave his dominion to Satan , the God of this World.

Through Christ we have been given Devine authority over the curse of sin and death.
We do not serve a God who changes his mind,or his Word.
We do not serve a God who fails,we fail God by unbelief or false teaching.

Our enemy has come to steal, kill ,and destroy yet he can do nothing without our help.
Our healing has been done for over 2000 years ,yet many have more faith in what the devil does than what God has done.

This all sounds very good but sadly we can't just order death to leave us alone and live forever. That happens the other side of the grave.

You seem to be working in absolutes here when it's not necessarily the case. The fact Jesus wasn't working against God when he healed the sick doesn't mean it's always God's will for the sick to be healed. All it means is that in those situations it was God's will for healing to take place. That doesn't mean that in any particular situation not listed in Scripture that it is, or is not, God's will for healing to occur.

The fact we die was because God decreed it would be so - in Gen 3:19 we see God telling Adam how he was made from dust and would return to dust, and in Gen 3:23-24 we see God driving Adam out of Eden and placing a flaming sword there to prevent him from eating of the tree of life. So unless you want to claim that we can become immortal in this life there's an obvious flaw in the idea that we have authority over death. Death isn't thrown into the lake of fire until the tail end of Revelation.

 

[Hammster]

We know God's will by having knowledge of God's Word.

It is not God's will for sickness to prosper against ,if God was responsible for sickness ,He would have worked against himself when Christ healed the sick.

Sickness is a result of sin entering this world through Adam who gave his dominion to Satan , the God of this World.

Through Christ we have been given Devine authority over the curse of sin and death.
We do not serve a God who changes his mind,or his Word.
We do not serve a God who fails,we fail God by unbelief or false teaching.

Our enemy has come to steal, kill ,and destroy yet he can do nothing without our help.
Our healing has been done for over 2000 years ,yet many have more faith in what the devil does than what God has done.

Since you have such great faith, please heal my wife.

I'll let her know it's coming soon. Thanks.

 

[Hebrews 11]

Since you have such great faith, please heal my wife.

I'll let her know it's coming soon. Thanks.

It is not my great faith,it is the faith of God that the healing will come.
Your faith in God in your spirit will bring healing,in the same manner you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that you have salvation.
My heart goes out to you and all of us here will pray in agreement with you both.
Matthew: 8. 16. When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: 17. That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

We may banter among ourselves,but that doesn't change the love of God in our hearts for you and your wife.
I know that all sickness and afflictions is of the devil ,rebuke him and he will flee.

God bless and bring healing and restoration to your Wife and You in Jesus name.

 

[Hebrews 11]

This all sounds very good but sadly we can't just order death to leave us alone and live forever. That happens the other side of the grave.

You seem to be working in absolutes here when it's not necessarily the case. The fact Jesus wasn't working against God when he healed the sick doesn't mean it's always God's will for the sick to be healed. All it means is that in those situations it was God's will for healing to take place. That doesn't mean that in any particular situation not listed in Scripture that it is, or is not, God's will for healing to occur.

The fact we die was because God decreed it would be so - in Gen 3:19 we see God telling Adam how he was made from dust and would return to dust, and in Gen 3:23-24 we see God driving Adam out of Eden and placing a flaming sword there to prevent him from eating of the tree of life. So unless you want to claim that we can become immortal in this life there's an obvious flaw in the idea that we have authority over death. Death isn't thrown into the lake of fire until the tail end of Revelation.

James said our lives are but a vapor,and God has appointed a man once to die as his Word says.
Even Paul would have rather died to be with the Lord , but his work on earth was not finished.

The kingdom of God is not about death it is about abundant life.
We know God's will by understanding God's Word.

Mark: 11. 22. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. 25. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

I am indeed working with absolutes the absolute truth in God's Word.

We make our stand on his truth, even during times of spiritual attack when it seems God has not answered your prayers,stand on his promises he never changes all of his promises are yes and Amen.

When we think God's Word has changed, we become our own emeny.
Life and death is in the power of your tongue.

 

[Lamb]

According to the line of thinking of those who espouse the "enough faith" attitude, if they were truly filled with so much faith, they wouldn't get sick in the first place. So much for faith healing.

 

[Alithis]

Word of Faith teaches that healing is our promise from God.

When people do not get Healed often times they are angry at faith being taught for healing.

Some say I have believed but nothing happened.

I find this passage in James interesting:

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

[15] And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Notice vs 15,it is clear on the prayer of Faith,as well notice it's not the sick persons faith that saves them it is the elders prayer of Faith.

Now if the sick are prayed over the healing is conditional upon those doing the praying.

Hopefully they do not end the prayer with if it be thine will.

The anointing with oil from the elders is one way to be healed,but if your not any better after then find elders with faith.

As I mentioned this passage is unconditional even sin cannot prevail against the prayer of Faith,so seek out a Church that gets results, a Church that has a funeral on a rare occasion.

But if your in a Church that the congregation is just as bad off as the world, there is something wrong healing is not a gamble its a promise from God.

its not "word of faith " ... you could fully leave that out of the topic ..
it IS the promise of God from his word .nothing to do with "word of faith "

great post.

God heals
God does not "do evil "
HE doesn't make us his children sick . and it is not his will for us to remain sick when sickness comes .

 

[Alithis]

We know God's will by having knowledge of God's Word.

It is not God's will for sickness to prosper against ,if God was responsible for sickness ,He would have worked against himself when Christ healed the sick.

Sickness is a result of sin entering this world through Adam who gave his dominion to Satan , the God of this World.

Through Christ we have been given Devine authority over the curse of sin and death.
We do not serve a God who changes his mind,or his Word.
We do not serve a God who fails,we fail God by unbelief or false teaching.

Our enemy has come to steal, kill ,and destroy yet he can do nothing without our help.
Our healing has been done for over 2000 years ,yet many have more faith in what the devil does than what God has done.

Excellent

indeed

i also heard a lady ,whose daily practice is to go out and pray for the sick and share the gospel .. (she often drives out demons and seas the person recover immediately ,especially with anxiety depressions and addictions -very demonic in origin those oppressions .)..

..say - "God does not send sickness to "teach us anything in our life " -becaseu he said he sent us the holy Spirit and he will teach us all things , so why would he contradict himself and send sickness to do the holy Spirit's Job ?"...

 

[Josiah]

Word of Faith teaches that healing is our promise from God.

When people do not get Healed often times they are angry at faith being taught for healing.

Some say I have believed but nothing happened.

I find this passage in James interesting:

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

[15] And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Notice vs 15,it is clear on the prayer of Faith,as well notice it's not the sick persons faith that saves them it is the elders prayer of Faith.

Now if the sick are prayed over the healing is conditional upon those doing the praying.

Hopefully they do not end the prayer with if it be thine will.

The anointing with oil from the elders is one way to be healed,but if your not any better after then find elders with faith.

As I mentioned this passage is unconditional even sin cannot prevail against the prayer of Faith,so seek out a Church that gets results, a Church that has a funeral on a rare occasion.

But if your in a Church that the congregation is just as bad off as the world, there is something wrong healing is not a gamble its a promise from God.

My Dad has diabetes. Does that mean he's not saved? Does it mean his church ergo is not Christian? That he doesn't pray (or God doesn't hear his prayers)?

My grandfather had a heart attack and died. Does that mean he wasn't saved? Does it mean his church ergo was not Christian? That he didn't pray (or God didn't hear them)?

Is one ONLY saved if one is healed of all medical problems (and thus never dies)?


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