Unfallen Life (beings & creatures) on Unfallen Worlds according to the Bible (KJB)

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 2, 2021

Unfallen Life (beings & creatures) on Unfallen Worlds according to the Bible (KJB)

Does the Bible teach that there is life on other worlds? If so, what does it look like? Are they little green men, or perhaps they are grey beings? Do they look like modified animals, as in Star Trek and Star Wars? Are they robots or machines of iron or some other metal or alloy? Does the Bible say anything at all about these things, or is it completely silent? If there are beings on other worlds, not our own (earth), what does this mean for the Everlasting Gospel and for the death (sacrifice) of Jesus Christ at Calvary? If they do exist, are they able to come to this world? What about "UFO's", and other such phenomena? What about people's experiences, are they real, fake, demonic, angelic, or other, and if so, what do these things mean? Is the place in the Bible, called "heaven" (Our Father which art in heaven ...) a real place that exists beyond our atmosphere and local Sol system, or is it an ethereal, non-tanigble experience, only in the mind, or other unknown realm outside of our experiential reality?

This thread is to consider these questions in the light of scripture.

Our first text/passages to consider:

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Luk 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luk 15:5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 2, 2021

Matthew ten Verseight said:
Unfallen Life (beings & creatures) on Unfallen Worlds according to the Bible (KJB)

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Does the Bible teach that there is life on other worlds? If so, what does it look like? Are they little green men, or perhaps they are grey beings? Do they look like modified animals, as in Star Trek and Star Wars? Are they robots or machines of iron or some other metal or alloy? Does the Bible say anything at all about these things, or is it completely silent? If there are beings on other worlds, not our own (earth), what does this mean for the Everlasting Gospel and for the death (sacrifice) of Jesus Christ at Calvary? If they do exist, are they able to come to this world? What about "UFO's", and other such phenomena? What about people's experiences, are they real, fake, demonic, angelic, or other, and if so, what do these things mean? Is the place in the Bible, called "heaven" (Our Father which art in heaven ...) a real place that exists beyond our atmosphere and local Sol system, or is it an ethereal, non-tanigble experience, only in the mind, or other unknown realm outside of our experiential reality?

This thread is to consider these questions in the light of scripture.

Our first text/passages to consider:

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Luk 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luk 15:5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Taking at look at Matthew 18:10-14; Luke 15:3-7, a little more closely, we can see that there are indeed beings on other worlds than this one (earth).

Matthew:

Matthew 18:10, "in heaven" (x2)

Matthew 18:11, "the Son of man is come [from Heaven, context] to save that which was lost [this whole world, for all in it were lost]"

Matthew 18:12, "a man have an hundred sheep", "one of them [the 100 sheep] be gone astray [only this world went astray]", "than of the ninety and nine [off the 100 sheep] which went not astray [the other worlds did not stray or sin, just ours, this earth]"

Matthew 18:13, "he find it [the 1 of the 100 that was lost and went astray]", "ninety and nine [of the 100] which went not astray"

Matthew 18:14, "in heaven"

Luke:

Luke 15:3, "parable", meaning symbols are given for something greater

Luke 15:4, "man ... having an hundred sheep", "lose one of them [the 100]", "leave the ninety and nine [of the 100] in the wilderness [Jesus left Heaven where His Father is, and came to find the lost here on this world, and so left the other unfallen worlds where they were]", "go after that [the 1 of the 100] which is lost [the other worlds were not lost, they never sinned]"

Luke 15:5.,"he found it [1 of the 100]", "he layeth it on his shoulders [the Cross of Calvary, which purchased this whole world]"

Luke 15:6, "when he cometh home [Heaven where His Father is]", "he calleth together his friends and neighbours [which are in Heaven, not this world, which He left to go back home to His Father] saying unto them [those that never were lost, for He always knew where they were, unfallen", "Rejoice with me [see Revelation 12:12, after Jesus had ascended after His resurrectiuon, "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. ..."], "I have found my sheep which was lost [the 1 of 100, for the 99 never were lost, never sinned]"

Luke 15:7, "joy shall be in heaven [again see Revelation 12:12]", "over one sinner that repententh", "more than over ninety and nine [of the 100] just persons [unfallen, non-sinners]", "which need no repentance [all on this world need repentance, but no so the other unfallen, non-lost worlds]"

Some have wrongly attempted to make this "parable" out to be about a contrast of the common people and the Pharisees. However, that does not fit the context, and is even contradictory to itself, since that would mean that those Pharisees would need no repentance, and never were lost, and Jesus left them as being just fine, and that Jesus would rejoice with them in coming home to them, having saved the common people from their sins. The Pharisees were in a more lost condition than most of the common people, because they were hard of heart, in not acknowledging their own sins. it would also mean that Jesus originated with them, in order to return "home", an they would be his "friends and neighbours", yet the Pharisees called Jesus "the friend of publicans and sinners" (Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:34), and were not thus his "friend" at all.

The parable is about this one lost world (1 sheep of the 100, all in Adam the first (except Christ Jesus), Romans 5:12) in contrast to all those other unfallen worlds ('99', a symbolic number, as is the '100') that surround and circle the Throne of Deity at the center of all things above.

We shall look at more texts to confirm. Let's take a look at John 14:1-4, next:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 3, 2021

Matthew ten Verseight said:
... Let's take a look at John 14:1-4, next:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Looking more closely at John 14:1-4, we notice something that Jesus said.

Jesus mentions,

John 14:2, "In my Father's house" , "many mansions", "prepare a place"

John 14:3, "if I go and prepare a place", "I will come again", "receive you unto myself", "that where I am, there ye may be also"

John 14:4, "whither I go ye know", "the way ye know"

What is the "Father's house"? It is above and beyond the "circle of the earth", even the whole "heavens", which He "stretheth out ... as a curtain, and spreadeth them [the heavens] out as a tent to dwell in":

Isa_40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

What then are the "many mansions [places/rooms, etc]" that fill this "house/tent"? They are the many "worlds" on high:

Heb_1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb_11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The earth, as one of the mansions or places, has its own "place" among the heavens:

Isa_13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

For God the Father ("which art in Heaven") dwells on His own world, His own place, at the center of all things (see Revelation):

2Ch_6:33 Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for; that all people of the earth may know thy name, and fear thee, as doth thy people Israel, and may know that this house which I have built is called by thy name.

2Ch_6:39 Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, their prayer and their supplications, and maintain their cause, and forgive thy people which have sinned against thee.

Just as God made this "earth" to be inhabited, there are many other inhabited worlds that existed long before ours, and rejoiced to see God make this world:

Isa_45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

For there are many unfallen beings in the Heavens, as already shown:

Rev_12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev_13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Eph_3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Col_1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Heb_12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Now that we can begin to see this, let's consider what some of these beings look like, and what they do up there.

We can begin in the books of Job 1-2; and 1 Kings 22; 2 Chronicles 18, etc.

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 4, 2021

Matthew ten Verseight said:
...

Now that we can begin to see this, let's consider what some of these beings look like, and what they do up there.

We can begin in the books of Job 1-2; and 1 Kings 22; 2 Chronicles 18, etc.

Considering:

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 2:4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.

Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

1Ki 22:24 But Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near, and smote Micaiah on the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee?

1Ki 22:25 And Micaiah said, Behold, thou shalt see in that day, when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself.

1Ki 22:26 And the king of Israel said, Take Micaiah, and carry him back unto Amon the governor of the city, and to Joash the king's son;

1Ki 22:27 And say, Thus saith the king, Put this fellow in the prison, and feed him with bread of affliction and with water of affliction, until I come in peace.

1Ki 22:28 And Micaiah said, If thou return at all in peace, the LORD hath not spoken by me. And he said, Hearken, O people, every one of you.

2Ch 18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.

2Ch 18:19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.

2Ch 18:20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?

2Ch 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

2Ch 18:23 Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near, and smote Micaiah upon the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee?

2Ch 18:24 And Micaiah said, Behold, thou shalt see on that day when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself.

2Ch 18:25 Then the king of Israel said, Take ye Micaiah, and carry him back to Amon the governor of the city, and to Joash the king's son;

2Ch 18:26 And say, Thus saith the king, Put this fellow in the prison, and feed him with bread of affliction and with water of affliction, until I return in peace.

2Ch 18:27 And Micaiah said, If thou certainly return in peace, then hath not the LORD spoken by me. And he said, Hearken, all ye people.

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 4, 2021

Matthew ten Verseight said:
Considering:

...

Consider these carefully.

Job 1:6, "a day when the sons of God", "came to present themselves before the LORD", "Satan came also among them"

Job 1:7, "the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou?", "Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

Job 1:8, "my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth"

Job 1:12, "Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD"

Job 2:1, "Again there was a day when the sons of God", "came to present themselves before the LORD", "Satan came also among them", "to present himself before the LORD"

Job 2:2, "And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou?", "And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

Job 2:3, "my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth"

Job 2:7, "So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD"

1 Kings 22:19, "I saw the LORD sitting on his throne", "and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left."

1 Kings 22:20, "And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead?", "And one said on this manner", "and another said on that manner."

1 Kings 22:21, "And there came forth a spirit", "and stood before the LORD", "and said, I will persuade him."

1 Kings 22:22, "And he said, I will go forth", "and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets", "And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so."

1 Kings 22:23, "the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets"

2 Chronicles 18:18, "I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne", "and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left."

2 Chronicles 18:19, "And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead?", "And one spake saying after this manner", "and another saying after that manner."

2 Chronicles 18:20, "Then there came out a spirit", "and stood before the LORD", "and said, I will entice him"

2 Chronicles 18:21, "And he said, I will go out", "and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.", "And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so."

2 Chronicles 18:22, "the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets"

In Job (1-2), as in 1 Kings 22 and 2 Chronicles 18, there is a gathering for a meeting of Heavenly intelligences (unfallen beings) in Heaven, where God dwells, and all are standing before Him to decide on matters that are taking place in/on the earth.

(1) We have "the LORD" (JEHOVAH) present.

(2) We have the Holy Ghost present (witnessing all of the events, and inspiring the prophets with vision of the event and to write it.

(3) We have the "sons of God" present, which are differing than the "morning stars" (Job 38:7, more on this in a moment), and these "came" from another location (not earth, but from elsewhere in the heavens) other than before (in front of) the LORD (who dwells in the 3rd Heaven, 2 Corinthians 12:2,4).

(4) We have "all the host of Heaven" standing to the left and right of the LORD.

(5) We have "Satan", the "lying spirit", the one who "entice/s" human beings. He is not a "son of God", neither of the morning stars, neither of "the host of Heaven", and neither the Holy Ghost. He explicitly says, when asked by the LORD, that he came from the earth (to this heavenly meeting), as he says, "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it"

(6) We have Job on earth, not a part of the Heavenly meeting directly, but is the subject of the Heavenly meeting.

(7) We have the prophet "Micaiah" standing on the earth, who merely had a vision of the Heavenly meeting and what took place therein about "Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah", and "the king of Israel (Ahab)"

Thus two differing events, in two periods of time, which demonstrate unfallen beings from other places not of this earth, and which had to come from their own places to stand before God in a certain day, on several occasions. Satan was (past tense, no longer since Calvary; Revelation 12:10; Romans 5:6; AD 31) also allowed into these meetings in Heaven.

The "sons of God" are a differing group of beings than the "morning stars":

Job_38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The morning stars are classed as the "host of heaven", the common angels (messengers) of God, see Isaiah 14:13, "stars of God". There are other examples, but this should suffice for the moment.

The "sons of God" in the Job passages (only), refer to the unfallen leaders (beings) of the unfallen worlds (elsewhere "sons of God" refer to mankind, more on this as needful later). When Adam (the first) was created, he was given "dominion" (Genesis 1:28), even the "first dominion" (Micah 4:8), along with Eve, as "gods, knowing good" (Genesis 3:5; see also Psalms 82:1,6, etc) over this world (earth) and "crowned with glory and honour" (Psalms 8:5). He (Adam) was thus then, a "son of God" (Luke 3:38), able to represent this world (earth) amongst the Heavenly counsel.

Yet, when Adam sinned, and submitted to the devil (Satan, Serpent, Dragon), he allowed Satan to become the "god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4), even the "prince [ruler] of this world" (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11) from that point forward. This is why, though Lucifer/Satan had already been cast "out" (Revelation 12:7-9) of Heaven (before/at the creation of this earth), he could temporarily go back to Heaven (3rd) as the Head representative of this world (earth), until such time that Christ Jesus purchased/redeemed it back (at Calvary, AD 31; Revelation 12:10; Romans 5:6), and became the new Head (Colossians 2:10) of this World, as the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45), and Satan was then cast "down" from his position, and could never again go back as representative. This is why in Job, Satan could say to the LORD, when the LORD asked where Satan came from (and representing), that he came, "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

As a quick aside for a moment, why would Satan say such a thing to God?

It was because he was saying that he was 'Lord of the Earth', and that it was his domain, that he walked up and down the breadth and depth and height of it (just as God told Abraham to do in Canaan (“Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.” Genesis 13:17), and also to Moses, and Joshua and the Children of Israel in the promised land (“Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.” Joshua 1:3), for it was promised to them, walk up and down the breadth of the land), and all was his dominion. Yet God, pointed out that not all was his (Satan's) as he made claim, for there was a man named Job, a servant of the LORD, who was upright, that feared God and shunned evil that was still representing God in/on the earth.

Now, we can begin to look at some other texts, such as the "cloud of witnesses", and connect the "sons of God" (in Job) to the 24 Elders of Revelation, and also some other parables that Jesus gave, as well as passages in Daniel, Revelation, Isaiah, Ezekiel and the Gospels to name a few.

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 6, 2021

Matthew ten Verseight said:
Consider these carefully.

...

Now, we can begin to look at some other texts, such as the "cloud of witnesses" ...

In Hebrews 12, we read:

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Some have said that the "cloud of witnesses" were the faithful in Hebrew 11. This is not so from the context., since the text of Hebrews 12:1, uses the word "also". Some have said that the "cloud of witnesses" are the deceased faithful, somehow watching in another plane of existence, but the Bible does not teach that spiritualism, and the context of Hebrews 11 would also preclude that since, there were no dead before Abel to watch him. Who then are the "so great a cloud of witnesses"? Let's go back a bit to Hebrews 11, since Hebrews 12:1 begins with "wherefore seeing", which points back to the previous chapter's context (in point of fact, Hebrews is built on a ladder structure beginning in chapter 1, and builds step by step from there. More on this as needful). Now Hebrews 11:1-4:

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Notice the words "by it (faith, vs 1) the elders (patriarchs like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Joseph, etc, vs 4,5,7,8,20,21,22 etc) "obtained a good report".

A "good report"? From who to who, by who? The very next phrase, in vs 3, links again "faith" with "the worlds" above.

Then in vs 4, we read again, in connection "he (Abel) obtained witness", and "God testifying". God dwells in Heaven, but He does not dwell there alone. Also in Hebrews 11:5, Enoch had a "testimony" that he "pleased God". God is watching, but is God the only one watching from above?

Even Abraham, in vs 10, was looking up (not to earthly things) to an Heavenly city, "which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." There is indeed a "city" (Hebrews 11:16) that is an "heavenly" (vs 16), not an earthly, that exists in a "country" (vs 14) above, and not "on the earth" (vs 13).

After the great list of acts of faith, they all "obtained a good report". By whom? Just God? No. There is "so great a cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12:1) watching from above in the heavens.

Even Abel, had such "witnesses" observing him. For Hebrews 12:1, "Wherefore seeing we (those present even in Pauls' day) also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses ..." This means, that whomever was watching Paul, Peter, James, John, etc, was also watching, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Joseph, and so on.

What are "clouds" then in scripture? Just water vapour in the first heaven? No. That is the natural (1 Corinthians 15:46), but they explain also spiritual things. Waters, in scripture are 'peoples':

Rev 17:15 – “… the waters which thou sawest … are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues …”

Psa 65:7 Which stilleth the noise of the seas, the noise of their waves, and the tumult of the people.

Isa 17:12 Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!

Isa 17:13 “The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters …”

Jer 51:41 “How is Sheshach taken! … how is Babylon become an astonishment among the nations!”

Jer 51:42 The sea is come up upon Babylon: she is covered with the multitude of the waves thereof.

... continued ...

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 6, 2021

Matthew ten Verseight said:
In Hebrews 12, we read:

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

...

What are "clouds" then in scripture? Just water vapour in the first heaven? No. That is the natural (1 Corinthians 15:46), but they explain also spiritual things. Waters, in scripture are 'peoples':

Rev 17:15 – “… the waters which thou sawest … are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues …”

Psa 65:7 Which stilleth the noise of the seas, the noise of their waves, and the tumult of the people.

Isa 17:12 Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!

Isa 17:13 “The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters …”

Jer 51:41 “How is Sheshach taken! … how is Babylon become an astonishment among the nations!”

Jer 51:42 The sea is come up upon Babylon: she is covered with the multitude of the waves thereof.

... continued ...

... continued ...

The are good waters and evil waters on earth:

Earthly, carnal, evil, impure and bitter waters:

Peoples of the nations that served the devil, and issued forth at his command, see 2 Sam. 22:5; Psa. 18:3-4, 32:6, 89:9-10, 93:3-4, 98:7-9, 124:1-5; Son. 8:7; Isa. 8:7, 17:12-13, 28:2, 59:19; Jer. 46:8, 47:2, 51:13; Eze. 31:15; Dan. 9:26, 11:22; Amo. 8:8, 9:5; Mat. 7:25,27; Jud. 1:13; Rev. 17:1,15.

Heavenly minded, spiritual, good, clean and sweet waters of earth:

even as Abraham (who was to be made into a nation) was called out of Babylon and the peoples thereof, and so God divided the waters, with a space between them, just as in Gen. 1:6-7 (more on this another time, for all of human history is found in Gen. 1-2), and Jacob (Israel), Christians, etc.

Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Gen 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Yet, those speak of earth, what then of the waters of Heaven itself?

Psa_148:4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

Psa 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Isa_14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Jer_4:13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Dan_7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Mat_24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat_26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mar_8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mar_13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mar_14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luk_21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Act_1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The "clouds" are the many angels, the beings of Heaven above, who are watching. They witness all that we do. The heavens above are filled with unfallen peoples on unfallen worlds. They are all watching us.

Dan_4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

pinacled · Jun 6, 2021

Matthew ten Verseight said:
... continued ...

The are good waters and evil waters on earth:

Earthly, carnal, evil, impure and bitter waters:

Peoples of the nations that served the devil, and issued forth at his command, see 2 Sam. 22:5; Psa. 18:3-4, 32:6, 89:9-10, 93:3-4, 98:7-9, 124:1-5; Son. 8:7; Isa. 8:7, 17:12-13, 28:2, 59:19; Jer. 46:8, 47:2, 51:13; Eze. 31:15; Dan. 9:26, 11:22; Amo. 8:8, 9:5; Mat. 7:25,27; Jud. 1:13; Rev. 17:1,15.

Heavenly minded, spiritual, good, clean and sweet waters of earth:

even as Abraham (who was to be made into a nation) was called out of Babylon and the peoples thereof, and so God divided the waters, with a space between them, just as in Gen. 1:6-7 (more on this another time, for all of human history is found in Gen. 1-2), and Jacob (Israel), Christians, etc.

Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Gen 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Yet, those speak of earth, what then of the waters of Heaven itself?

Psa_148:4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

Psa 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Isa_14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Jer_4:13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Dan_7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Mat_24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat_26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mar_8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mar_13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mar_14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luk_21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Act_1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The "clouds" are the many angels, the beings of Heaven above, who are watching. They witness all that we do. The heavens above are filled with unfallen peoples on unfallen worlds. They are all watching us.

Dan_4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

The basest of men understand that after salt water is boiled the salt remains to heal the well of the heart.
While the water evaporates the clouds are replenished to water the ground with blessings to crops during the seasons.

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 8, 2021

Some have thought that men (mankind) have physically travelled to some of the other heavenly bodies, such as the "moon" and "Mars". This is not so, according to scripture, and the science itself. I do not question certain satellites, but nothing has 'landed' on the moon or Mars. The problem arises when men trust their eyes and ears, through a 'medium' of television, and a government funded agency (N.A.S.A.):

N.A.S.A. - Not Always Scientifically Accurate

N.A.S.A. - Never A Straight Answer

N.A.S.A. - Numerous Anomalies Scams Abound

N.A.S.A. - National Academy of Space Actors

N.A.S.A. - Not Anything, Simply Aether

N.A.S.A. - Neither Aerospace, Sadly, Astro-NOTS!

N.A.S.A. - Never Accept Serpent Assertions.

One error demonstrated (N.A.S.A.), does not validate an associated error (flat-earth), as true (in fact, it is untrue, but this thread is not for that issue. Any person desiring to discuss the 'shape' of the world upon which we live/exist, begin a new thread, and invite me to join by PM. Do not link to it here, and I ask in charity (1 Corinthians 13)).

The position taken, is a scriptural (KJB), historical and scientific one.

God will never allow sinful manind to leave this planet [world, spheroid] (though they have access to high altitudes, see also Ephesians 2:2, 6:12) and spread the infection to the entire unfallen universe. Lucifer was already removed from the 3rd Heaven because of sin (2 Peter 2:4; Ezekiel 28:15-18). This world is presently a quarantine zone of sin. It is the triage area, the sickbed of the universal Hospital, a leper colony on an island in 'space' (and another reason it will take 7 days trip to reach the 3rd Heaven, when we finally leave with Jesus; Leviticus 13, 23:39), struck off (temporarily) from the 'continent of Heaven'. Only the proper Heavenly angels, as nurse-aides to the Great Physician, Jesus Christ, is allowed in and out. Even now, since the Cross (AD 31), satan is trapped down here (1 Peter 5:8) and o are we (as Daniel in the Lion's den), unable to leave [1 Timothy 6:7 (which seems to draw upon Job 1:21 & Ecclesiastes 5:15); Revelation 12:8-13; Romans 5:6 [combined with Revelation 12:10]; 2 Corinthians 4:4 [this world only and no other worldly body in the heavens] KJB].

1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

Ecc 5:15 As he came forth of his mother's womb, naked shall he return to go as he came, and shall take nothing of his labour, which he may carry away in his hand.

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Psa_115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

The ‘space programs’ are actually another system based upon the ‘tower of babel’ (Genesis 11) reasoning/thought, being another way up into Heaven other than The Way (John 14:6), another ladder other than the Jacob’s Ladder - Jesus Christ. The only way into Heaven now is by vision (2 Corinthians 12:1), or by John 14:1-3 in the return of Jesus Christ to take us all, in Him, up.

The Apollo programs were a giant lie, and the Mars programs even more so. Many more details as needful.

Some names I may recommend to you (most of which is freely available online to read or watch, consider scientifically).

Bill Kaysing (ex-RocketDyne).

James Collier (Was it only a paper moon);

Bart Sibrel (Astronauts Gone Wild);

Ralph Rene (Nasa Mooned America),

Marcus Allen (author, speaker with Aulis & Nexus magazine).

David Percy (What happened on the Moon, Analysis; Hall of Mirrors),

Mary Bennett.

Jim (James) Fetzer.

Jarrah White (Moon Faker, Mars Faker (youtube), beware, he's an atheist),

Richard Hall, and in this present list, last but not least,

N.A.S.A. itself, and its own material, still available and that which has since been removed, deleted, redacted, etc.

Do I agree with everything these above have said or done? Of course not. I am only interested in facts, which substantiate the scriptural position. Now, if you say you disagree, then why not hear my evidence and what I have seen, read and studied, tested, then judge, and not before. Begin with the scriptures above, then further evidence may be provided as necessary.

Pro 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

Pro 18:17 He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.

In the Heavenly universe, this earth (sinful world) is the 'alien' (the foreign) element in all the unfallen universe. Then even so, Christians are the 'alien' (pilgrim's) on earth (Hebrews 11:13; 1 Peter 2:11), and eventually, satan is going to attempt to remove us all (loyal to God) from it.

There are no little green men. No little grey men. No 'Andromedans'. No Raelians. There are however glowing beings that came from Heaven above, some good (like those of God's host, Gabriel and 'Herald' (personal nickname I gave him)), and some wicked (Lucifer and his hosts). The wicked ones love to deceive. A UFO advent, is prepared by the devil for the secularist (and/or atheist, agnostic, etc).

I recommend watching, "Alien Intrusion - Unmasking a Deception with Gary Bates" (not perfect, but serves it's purpose) - Alien Intrusion - Unmasking A Deception With Gary Bates

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 11, 2021

Many have aetheralized (spiritualized) away Heaven (3rd) and all that is in it, including the Person/Being of the Father Himself!

Heaven Is It For Real?, page 8 by Joe Crews -

“It is shocking how many weak and twisted concepts of heaven people have accepted. Most folks think of it as some far off ethereal place—and that is about all the average man knows about heaven. He believes it is “up there” somewhere. Yes, it is “up there,” and we can agree with him that far ...” - https://ia801901.us.archive.org/3/i...ary Of Sermons 24 - Heaven Is It For Real.pdf

The Great Controversy 1888/1911, page 435 -

“... Many and earnest were the efforts made to overthrow their faith. None could fail to see that if the earthly sanctuary was a figure or pattern of the heavenly, the law deposited in the ark on earth was an exact transcript of the law in the ark in Heaven; and that an acceptance of the truth concerning the heavenly sanctuary involved an acknowledgment of the claims of God’s law, and the obligation of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Here was the secret of the bitter and determined opposition to the harmonious exposition of the Scriptures that revealed the ministration of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary. Men sought to close the door which God had opened, and to open the door which he had closed. But “He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth,” had declared, “Behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it.” [Revelation 3:7, 8.] Christ had opened the door, or ministration, of the most holy place, light was shining from that open door of the sanctuary in Heaven, and the fourth commandment was shown to be included in the law which is there enshrined; what God had established, no man could overthrow. ...” - The Great Controversy, Page 435 -- Ellen G. White Writings

The Father is not a perfume, not an aethereal essence pervading the universe.

Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

He, the Father, is a "Person", even His person (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3), of which Jesus (the Son) is the "express image" of.

As for the rest, see "His person" (Job 13:8); "form of God" (Philippians 2:6), "shape" (John 5:37), "image" (Genesis 1:26,27; Hebrews 1:3), "likeness" (Genesis 1:26,27), "being" (Acts 17:28), has a very real movable "Throne" on which He sits (Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4-5, &c), has "the hair of his head like the pure wool" (Daniel 7:9), "whose garment was white as snow" (Daniel 7:9), has a "right hand" (Revelation 5:1; Acts 7:55-56), able to be looked upon, "to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone" (Revelation 4:2), having His own "nature" (Galatians 4:8).

God has hairs on His head, Daniel 7:9; and has hands, Exodus 33:22; and has feet, Exodus 24:10; and loins [H4975; waist to upper thighs, see 1 Kings 18:46, etc], Ezekiel 1:27; a face, Matthew 18:10; a heart, Genesis 6:6; parts, Exodus 22:32; a form, Philippians 2:6; shape, John 5:37; is a Person, Hebrews 1:3; is a Soul, Jeremiah 5:9; and is a Spirit, thus has a mind, Matthew 12:28.

See also "back parts" (Exodus 33:23), and even a "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), see also "under his feet" (Exodus 24:10).

The angels are also called 'spirits' (that is a being with a 'mind/heart') and "persons" ("fellows"; Hebrews 1:9), "young man" (Mark 16:5; Daniel 9:21; &c), and yet have real celestial (Heavenly) "bodies" with unfallen angelic "flesh" (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; Jude 1:7, Genesis 17-19, &c) an unfallen heavenly "nature" (Hebrews 2:16), where as we have bodies terrestrial (dust).

The Son is also a "person" (Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 27:24; Deuteronomy 27:25; &c).

So is the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; &c)

Mankind are also called 'spirits' (1 Peter 3:19; Hebrews 12:23) and yet are real tangible beings, with bodies (made of dust).

Philippians 2:6; Daniel 3:25; Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10-11; Psalms 18:9; John 5:37; Exodus 33:23,20,22; Daniel 7:9-10,13; Ezekiel 1:1,8,26-28; Acts 7:55-56; Psalms 24:1-10; John 20:17; 1 Peter 3:22; Matthew 18:10; Revelation 1:13-20, 2:1, 4:1-11, 5:1-14; Hebrews 1:13; Colossians 1:3-6; Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 45:23, 48:3; Revelation 3:16; Psalms 89:34; Psalms 104:33, 146:2; Acts 17:28; Genesis 1:26-27; Colossians 1:15; &c.

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 11, 2021

There are those who will not want to immediately accept God's word over the devil's because of what they have been taught [immortal soul/spirit theology, which is spiritism and directly affects the Everlasting Gospel itself, for if the dead are not really dead in the natural, how then can the old man of sin ever really die in the spiritual?

See - Sincerely Dead (Powerpoint) - https://archive.org/download/sincerely-dead/Sincerely Dead.pptx

See - Sincerely Dead (Video presentation) - https://archive.org/download/sincer...rely Dead - Aaron Earnest - June 22, 2019.mp4

See 1 Corinthians 15:46 for the principle of the natural followed by the spiritual, one teaches about the other], or their family believed or they 'experienced' something, yet none of that is a thus saith the LORD, and those texts which are often used to attempt to 'second' the devil's testimony, are always taken out of context, with the very words therein being redefined according to pagan platonic dualism, rather than scriptural [KJB], for examples [in brief], Thief on the Cross [Luke 23:43], Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus [Luke 16:19-31], Souls under the Altar [Revelation 6:9-11], The familiar spirit of the Witch of Endor [1 Samuel 28:7-25], the spirits in prison [1 Peter 3:19], and so on. These will be studied a bit later in detail as needful.

Paul says that we, Christians, are not looking to be “unclothed” [2 Corinthians 5:4], but rather, “to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven” [2 Corinthians 5:2], “so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked” [2 Corinthians 5:3; nakedness here is the sleep of death, the doing and knowing nothing of the grave; Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10, etc.], being “clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life” [2 Corinthians 5:4], that “mortal” shall put on, and be swallowed up of, “immortality” [1 Corinthians 15:53,54].

Jesus' own body in His resurrection is a real glorified body, in which He participated in eating, speaking, touching, etc., and is the very same body that he ascended up into Heaven with, not faded into the aether, nor dematerialized into vaporous nothing.

The “stone” [Matthew 28:2; Mark 16:3,4; Luke 24:2; John 20:1] upon the tomb had to be rolled back by Gabriel, to let Jesus free. Jesus did not phase through it, He got up and walked out of the opening [Matthew 28:1-7; Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24;1-9; John 20:1-13]. Additionally, in Jesus' death there was an earthquake [Matthew 27:51] which “opened” [Matthew 27:52] many of the tombs of the martyred saints around Jerusalem, so that those martyred saints therein, could come “out” [Matthew 27:53] in their resurrection when Jesus was resurrected [1 Corinthians 15:20,23]. They did not phase through them either.

The disciples were able to hold onto Jesus' glorified flesh, when they held Him by the feet [Matthew 28:9; John 20:17], and He drew near to two on the road to Emmaus, and walked and talked with them [Mark 16:12; Luke 24:15], and entered their house, sat down and broke bread with them [Luke 24:30,35]. Jesus verily “vanished out of their sight” [Luke 24:32], but please notice, it does not say he *poofed* into nothing. To “vanish out of … sight” is simply to be “invisible”, not incorporeal, as a mythological and paganistic 'shade'. They got up and left to go back to Jerusalem, and Jesus was with them the whole time, unseen. Jesus did not phase through a wall, nor a locked door, that first day [John 20:19], nor a week later [John 20:26]. He simply entered with them [Luke 24:32-36], and was “invisible” until He revealed Himself, even as He had been with the two earlier on the road to Emmaus and they did not recognize Him, until He showed Himself to them at their house.

Jesus asks them to “handle” [Luke 24:38; Ephesians 5:30] Him, having “flesh and bones”, “hands and feet” [Luke 24:39,40], and He eats with the disciples [Luke 24:41-43]. Jesus even asks Thomas to put his finger and hand into the very wounds that Jesus still had [John 20:27]. He also shewed Himself at the sea of Tiberias [John 21:1-25], and also

Jesus later ascends [Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; John 20:17; Acts 1:2-11; Ephesians 4:8-10; Revelation 12:5; Psalms 24:1-10] into Heaven with the “same” [Acts 1:11] glorified body, even the “form” [Daniel 3:25; Philippians 2:6, etc & Exodus 33:23] thereof. This same body, and all its descriptive parts, is seen in Heaven in Revelation 1:13-16, 2:1,18, having the glory He had before coming in humanity [John 17:5]. He went to “prepare a place” [John 14:2,3], a very real place, for those who believe unto the end.

That Heavenly city, having precious foundations, whose builder and make is God [Hebrews 11:10], is real and will come down from Heaven above, and is filled with all manner of beauty and creation, “cherubim and seraphim, “elders”, “creatures”, stones, gold, pearls, eternal gates. We will have “crowns”, “palms”, “harps” and “white raiment”, being able to drink from the “river of water of life”, and to eat from “the tree of life” in the middle of the garden of the Heavenly Eden. There is the true Temple and true Ark of God, and His Ten Commandments. The Father Himself [and Son] rules from a very real “throne”, and a description of Him may be seen in Daniel 7:9; Matthew 10:18; Revelation 4, etc.

Satan has attempted to aetherealize and vaporize the reward of God and Heaven into non-things, gaseous clouds of non-entity, incorporeal vanity, and he has highly succeeded in this, but only because God's people reject knowledge sent from God [Hosea 4:6].

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 11, 2021

"... PERSONALITY OF GOD

MAN was made in the image of God. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him." Gen.i,26,27. See also chap.ix,6; 1Cor.xi,7. Those who deny the personality of God, say that "image" here does not mean physical form, but moral image, and they make this the grand starting point to prove the immortality of all men. The argument stands thus: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is an immortal being. Third, therefore all men are immortal. But this mode of reasoning would also prove man omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, and thus clothe mortal man with all the attributes of the deity. Let us try it: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Third, therefore, man is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. That which proves too much, proves nothing to the point, therefore the position that the image of God means his moral image, cannot be sustained. As proof that God is a person, read his own words to Moses: "And the Lord said, Behold there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock; and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by. And I will take away mine hand and thou shalt see my [2] back parts; but my face shall not be seen." Ex.xxxiii,21-23. See also chap.xxiv,9-11. Here God tells Moses that he shall see his form. To say that God made it appear to Moses that he saw his form, when he has no form, is charging God with adding to falsehood a sort of juggling deception upon his servant Moses. {1861 JW, PERGO 1.1}

But the skeptic thinks he sees a contradiction between verse 11, which says that the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, and verse 20, which states that Moses could not see his face. But let Num.xii,5-8 remove the difficulty. "And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam, and they both came forth. And he said, Hear now my words. If there be a prophet among you, I, the Lord, will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently." {1861 JW, PERGO 2.1}

The great and dreadful God came down, wrapped in a cloud of glory. This cloud could be seen, but not the face which possesses more dazzling brightness than a thousand suns. Under these circumstances Moses was permitted to draw near and converse with God face to face, or mouth to mouth, even apparently. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.2}

Says the prophet Daniel, "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hairs of his head like the pure wool; his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." Chap.vii,9. "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him, and [3] there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom." Verses 13, 14. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.3}

Here is a sublime description of the action of two personages; viz, God the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ. Deny their personality, and there is not a distinct idea in these quotations from Daniel. In connection with this quotation read the apostle's declaration that the Son was in the express image of his Father's person. "God, who at sundry times, and in divers manners, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person." Heb.i,1-3. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.1}

We here add the testimony of Christ. "And the Father himself which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." John v,37. See also Phil.ii,6. To say that the Father has not a personal shape, seems the most pointed contradiction of plain scripture terms.

OBJECTION. - "God is a Spirit." John iv,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.2}

ANSWER. - Angels are also spirits [Ps.civ,4], yet those that visited Abram and Lot, lay down, ate, and took hold of Lot's hand. They were spirit beings. So is God a Spirit being. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.3}

OBJ. - God is everywhere. Proof. Ps.cxxxix,1-8. He is as much in every place as in any one place. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.4}

ANS. - 1. God is everywhere by virtue of his omniscience, as will be seen by the very words of David referred to above. Verses 1-6. "O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising; thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a [4] word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thy hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is high; I cannot attain unto it." {1861 JW, PERGO 3.5}

2. God is everywhere by virtue of his Spirit, which is his representative, and is manifested wherever he pleases, as will be seen by the very words the objector claims, referred to above. Verses 7-10. "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me." {1861 JW, PERGO 4.1}

God is in heaven. This we are taught in the Lord's prayer. "Our Father which art in heaven." Matt.vi,9; Luke xi,2. But if God is as much in every place as he is in any one place, then heaven is also as much in every place as it is in any one place, and the idea of going to heaven is all a mistake. We are all in heaven; and the Lord's prayer, according to this foggy theology simply means, Our Father which art everywhere, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is everywhere. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.2}

Again, Bible readers have believed that Enoch and Elijah were really taken up to God in heaven. But if God and heaven be as much in every place as in any one place, this is all a mistake. They were not translated. And all that is said about the chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and the attending whirlwind to take Elijah up into heaven, was a useless parade. They only evaporated, and a misty vapor passed through the entire universe. This is all of Enoch and Elijah that the mind can possibly grasp, admitting that God and heaven are [5] no more in any one place than in every place. But it is said of Elijah that he "went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2Kings ii,11. And of Enoch it is said that he "walked with God, and was not, for God took him." Gen.v,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.3}

Jesus is said to be on the right hand of the Majesty on high." Heb.i,3. "So, then, after the Lord had spoken unto them he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." Mark xvi,19. But if heaven be everywhere, and God everywhere, then Christ's ascension up to heaven, at the Father's right hand, simply means that he went everywhere! He was only taken up where the cloud hid him from the gaze of his disciples, and then evaporated and went everywhere! So that instead of the lovely Jesus, so beautifully described in both Testaments, we have only a sort of essence dispersed through the entire universe. And in harmony with this rarified theology, Christ's second advent, or his return, would be the condensation of this essence to some locality, say the mount of Olivet! Christ arose from the dead with a physical form. "He is not here," said the angel, "for he is risen as he said." Matt.xxviii,6. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.1}

"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail! And they came and held him by the feet, and they worshiped him." Verse 9. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.2}

"Behold my hands and my feet," said Jesus to those who stood in doubt of his resurrection, "that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honey-comb, and he took it and did eat before them." Luke xxiv,39-43. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.3} [6]

After Jesus addressed his disciples on the mount of Olivet, he was taken up from them, and a cloud received him out of their sight. "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel, which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts i,9-11. J. W. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.1} ..."

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 11, 2021

"... IMMATERIALITY

THIS is but another name for nonentity. It is the negative of all things and beings - of all existence. There is not one particle of proof to be advanced to establish its existence. It has no way to manifest itself to any intelligence in heaven or on earth. Neither God, angels, nor men could possibly conceive of such a substance, being, or thing. It possesses no property or power by which to make itself manifest to any intelligent being in the universe. Reason and analogy never scan it, or even conceive of it. Revelation never reveals it, nor do any of our senses witness its existence. It cannot be seen, felt, heard, tasted, or smelled, even by the strongest organs, or the most acute sensibilities. It is neither liquid nor solid, soft nor hard - it can neither extend nor contract. In short, it can exert no influence whatever - it can neither act nor be acted upon. And even if it does exist, it can be of no possible use. It possesses no one, desirable property, faculty, or use, yet, strange to say, immateriality is the modern Christian's God, his anticipated heaven, his immortal self - his all! {1861 JW, PERGO 6.2}

O sectarianism! O atheism!! O annihilation!!! [7]

who can perceive the nice shades of difference between the one and the other? They seem alike, all but in name. The atheist has no God. The sectarian has a God without body or parts. Who can define the difference? For our part we do not perceive a difference of a single hair; they both claim to be the negative of all things which exist - and both are equally powerless and unknown. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.3}

The atheist has no after life, or conscious existence beyond the grave. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial, like his God; and without body or parts. Here again both are negative, and both arrive at the same point. Their faith and hope amount to the same; only it is expressed by different terms. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.1}

Again, the atheist has no heaven in eternity. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial in all its properties, and is therefore the negative of all riches and substances. Here again they are equal, and arrive at the same point. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.2}

As we do not envy them the possession of all they claim, we will now leave them in the quiet and undisturbed enjoyment of the same, and proceed to examine the portion still left for the despised materialist to enjoy. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.3}

What is God? He is material, organized intelligence, possessing both body and parts. Man is in his image. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.4}

What is Jesus Christ? He is the Son of God, and is like his Father, being "the brightness of his Father's glory, and the express image of his person." He is a material intelligence, with body, parts, and passions; possessing immortal flesh and immortal bones. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.5}

What are men? They are the offspring of Adam. They are capable of receiving intelligence and exaltation to such a degree as to be raised from the dead with a body like that of Jesus Christ, [8] and to possess immortal flesh and bones. Thus perfected, they will possess the material universe, that is, the earth, as their "everlasting inheritance." With these hopes and prospects before us, we say to the Christian world who hold to immateriality, that they are welcome to their God - their life - their heaven, and their all. They claim nothing but that which we throw away; and we claim nothing but that which they throw away. Therefore, there is no ground for quarrel or contention between us. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.6}

We choose all substance - what remains
The mystical sectarian gains;
All that each claims, each shall possess,
Nor grudge each other's happiness.

An immaterial God they choose,
For such a God we have no use;
An immaterial heaven and hell,
In such a heaven we cannot dwell.

We claim the earth, the air, and sky,
And all the starry worlds on high;
Gold, silver, ore, and precious stones,
And bodies made of flesh and bones.

Such is our hope, our heaven, our all,
When once redeemed from Adam's fall;
All things are ours, and we shall be,
The Lord's to all eternity. {1861 JW, PERGO 8.1} ..." - Personality of God, by James Springer White, 1861, pages 1.1 - 8.1 - Personality of God, Page 1 -- Ellen G. White Writings

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 11, 2021

The Angels of Heaven [from Genesis to Revelation, while some things are symbolic, context determines] are always depicted as have the:

“similitude of the sons of men” [Daniel 10:16],

“the likeness of a man” [Daniel 10:16],

“like the appearance of a man” [Daniel 10:18],

looking like “men” [Genesis 18:2],

having that like the “hands of a man” [Ezekiel 1:8, 10:21],

a “hand” [Ezekiel 2:9; Daniel 10:10],

“fingers of a man's hand” [Daniel 5:5],

“bear thee up in [their] hands” [Psalms 91:12] or “hands they shall bear thee up” [Matthew 4:6],

“touched” [Daniel 8:18, 9:21],

“the face of a man” [Ezekiel 1:10, 10:14, 41:19],

“fell … on their faces” [Revelation 7:11],

“countenance was like lightning” [Matthew 28:3],

“their appearance [was] like burning coals of fire, [and] like the appearance of lamps” [Ezekiel 1:13],

“young man” [Mark 16:5],

and man-kind are “made ... a little lower than the angels” [Psalms 8:5],

“bodies” [Ezekiel 1:11,23; 1 Corinthians 15:40],

“feet” [and legs] [Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10; 2 Samuel 22:10; Psalms 18:9; Isaiah 6:2; Lamentations 3:34; Ezekiel 1:7; Daniel 10:6; Habakkuk 3:5; Zechariah 14:4; Revelation 1:5, 2:18, 10:1, 19:10, 22:8],

“sole of their feet” [Ezekiel 1:7],

“eyes” [Deuteronomy 11:12, 13:18; 2 Chronicles 16:9; Job 34:21; Psalms 11:4; Ezekiel 1:18, 10:12; Daniel 10:6; Hebrews 4:13; Revelation 1:14, 2:18, 4:6,8, 5:6, 19:12],

“do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven” [Matthew 18:10],

“breasts” [ie, upper chest/torso] [Revelation 15:6],

“voices” [Revelation 4:5, 8:5, 10:3-4, 11:15,19, 16:18],

“the voice of many angels round about the throne” [Revelation 5:11],

“sang together” [Job 38:7],

“shouted for joy” [Job 38:7],

that “talked” [Zechariah 5:5],

able to “Hail” [Luke 1:28],

and have “wings” [Exodus 25:20, 37:9; 2 Samuel 22:11; 1 Kings 6:27, 8:6-7; 1 Chronicles 28:18; 2 Chronicles 3:11,13, 5:7-8; Psalms 18:10, 104:3; Isaiah 6:2; Ezekiel 1:6,8-9,11,23-25, 3:13, 10:8,12,16,19,21, 11:22; Revelation 4:8],

“fly swiftly” [Daniel 9:21],

and being able to carry a “sword” [Genesis 3:24; Numbers 22:31; Joshua 5:13; 1 Chronicles 21:16],

or having “a slaughter weapon in his hand” [Ezekiel 9:2],

able to “smote” [2 Kings 19:35],

and “cut off” [2 Chronicles 32:21],

and “fought” [Revelation 12:7],

make “war” [Revelation 12:7, see also 2 Kings 6:16-17],

“encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them” [Psalms 34:7],

“an hedge” [Job 1:10],

they are strong, “that excel in strength” [Psalms 103:20],

“strengthening” [Luke 22:43],

able to do, “that do his commandments” [Psalms 103:20],

listening, “hearkening unto the voice of his word” [Psalms 103:20],

or carrying a “writer's ink horn by his side” [Ezekiel 9:2],

have “food” [Psalms 78:25],

can be “entertained” [Hebrews 13:2],

and “harps” [Revelation 5:8],

“live coal” [Isaiah 6:6],

“tongs” [Isaiah 6:6],

“vials” [Revelation 5:8, 15:7, 16:1, 17:1, 21:9],

“golden censer” [Revelation 8:3],

“golden reed” [Revelation 21:5],

wearing “golden girdles” [Revelation 15:6],

having “incense” [Revelation 8:3],

“trumpet/s” [Exodus 19:13,16,19, 20:18; Psalms 47:5, 150:3; Zechariah 9:14; Matthew 24:31; 1 Corinthians 15:52; Hebrews 12:19; Revelation 8:2,6,13, 9:14 [consider also in the context of Jesus' voice; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 1:10, 4:1]],

“sickle” [Revelation 14:14-19],

and even a “book” [scroll] [Exodus 32:32-33; Psalms 69:28, 139:16; Ezekiel 2:9; Daniel 12:1; Malachi 3:16; Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5, 5:1-5, 7-9, 10:2,8-10, 13:8, 17:8, 20:12,15, 21:27],

and are able to “speak” [“said”] [Ezekiel 2:1; Acts 5:19-20] [devils/angels throughout, examples; Genesis 18 and 19; Matthew 4:1-11, 8:29; Mark 3:11; Luke 4:1-13, etc.],

devils and Satan “speaketh a lie” [John 8:44],

“tongues … of angels” [1 Corinthians 13:31],

Paul having heard “unspeakable words” [2 Corinthians 12:4],

“sat” [Judges 6:11; Matthew 28:2],

and are found “sitting” [John 20:12],

being able to “stand” [1 Chronicles 21:16; Luke 1:19; Revelation 10:5],

and “stood” [Ezekiel 9:2; Acts 1:10],

and “all the angels stood round about the throne” [Revelation 7:11],

seen “standing” [Numbers 22:31],

able to “touched” [1 Kings 19:5,7],

held “the staff that [was] in his hand” [Judges 6:21],

“ministers” [Psalms 103:21],

“minister[ed]” [Matthew 4:11; Hebrews 1:14, 8:2],

found “ministering” [Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7],

“clothed with linen” [Ezekiel 9:2,3,11, 10:2,6,7; Daniel 10:5],

“stood by them in white apparel” [Acts 1:10],

“clothed in a long white garment” [Mark 16:5],

“clothed in white raiment” [Revelation 4:4],

“in white sitting” [John 20:12],

the “four and twenty elders” having “on their heads crowns of gold” [Revelation 4:4],

or even “clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles” [Revelation 15:6],

and they “worship” [Exodus 34:14; Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; John 4:24; Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 4:10, 19:10],

being able to both bow, kneel and fall before the LORD, “fell before the Throne on their faces, and worhsipped God” [Revelation 7:11],

“present themselves before the Lord” [Job 1:6, 2:1],

being able to “Bless the LORD” [Psalms 103:20-22],

“praise” [Psalms 148:2],

and even pray and cry aloud with their mouths, “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY” [Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8].

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 11, 2021

God created the Angels as glorious beings, and they do have bodies, as Paul would say, “Celestial bodies”, for “God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him”. Just as Jesus now eternally has a “Glorious Body” [Philippians 3:21].

Lucifer/[now satan] was the very “anointed cherub that coverth” [Ezekiel 28:14] and stood directly by the very Throne of God in Heaven [just as the imitation ones, being patterned after the heavenly ones on either side of the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant on earth] and God had dressed him [Lucifer] in precious stones and metals, “every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created” [Ezekiel 28:13] and Lucifer had once “walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire” in the “Eden the garden of God”, upon “the holy mountain of God”, being “Mount Zion” of Heaven, which “cannot be removed, [but] abideth forever”.

Satan will be brought to “ashes” [Ezekiel 28:18; Malachi 4:3, see also the sanctuary; Psalms 73:17, 77:13] and “All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.” [Ezekiel 28:19] and “The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt be] any more.” [Ezekiel 27:36]

The angels, like the Cherubim and Seraphim, the shining ones, are “ministering spirits” [Hebrews 1:14], called a “flaming fire” [Psalms 104:4], and “ministers a flame of fire” [Hebrews 1:7], and their “countenances” are “like lightning”, as “burning coals of fire”, and “burning lamps”, and wearing “white raiment” which are very “bright”. Even Satan can transform himself into an “angel of light” [2 Corinthians 11:14]. Does this mean that angels have no substance, no body and are merely wispy aether? Not at all. The bodies they have, are “celestial” [1 Corinthians 15:40], and those which are good, are led by the Spirit, and are thus spiritual bodies [1 Corinthians 15:44], being in subjection to God, and are not subject to death [yet the wicked angels will be soon]. Even we, as Christians, are to be “ministering spirits” also:

Hebrews 12:23 - To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Additionally, it is the Righteous who will eternally dwell with God, who is “a Spirit” [John 4:24], and “the Holy Spirit” the fullness of “fire” [Acts 2:3; Revelation 1:4; 4:5], who “baptize/s” with “fire” [Matthew 3:11; Mark 9:49; Luke 3:16], thus we will dwell with “everlasting burnings” [Isaiah 33:14], for God is a “consuming fire” [to sin and of “Love”] [Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29; 1 John 4:8,16] and a “fire goeth before Him” [Psalms 97:3] which “shall devour before Him” [Psalms 50:3] and “he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire” [Lamentations 2:3], and for those whom He loves He is a “wall of fire round about” [Zechariah 2:5] and His “ministers a flame of fire” [Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7] and His “tongue as a devouring fire” [Isaiah 30:7] His speech “fire” [2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8; Jeremiah 20:9; Acts 2:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:8], His “eyes … as a flame of fire” [Revelation 1:14, 2:18, 19:12], His “face as the sun” and His “feet a pillar of fire” [Matthew 17:2; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Revelation 1:15, 2:18, 10:1], for He is a “refiners fire” [Malachi 3:2] having a “throne of fire” [Psalms 89:36; Daniel 7:9; Ezekiel 1:26-28; Revelation 4:5], His Ten Commandments a “Fiery Law” [Deuteronomy 33:2; Ezekiel 28:14,16] and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire [Revelation 15:2], and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed [Exodus 3:3], for He is “Light”, even the Light of all.

However, the wicked are never immortal, for they are to be burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished forever; Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:9, 21:4. More on this later, as needful.

Early Writings (1882), Spiritual Gifts Volume 1, The Plan of Salvation, page 152.3 -

“... I was shown Satan as he once was, a happy, exalted angel. Then I was shown him as he now is. He still bears a kingly form. His features are still noble, for he is an angel fallen. But the expression of his countenance is full of anxiety, care, unhappiness, malice, hate, mischief, deceit, and every evil. That brow which was once so noble, I particularly noticed. His forehead commenced from his eyes to recede. I saw that he had so long bent himself to evil that every good quality was debased, and every evil trait was developed. His eyes were cunning, sly, and showed great penetration. His frame was large, but the flesh hung loosely about his [153] hands and face. As I beheld him, his chin was resting upon his left hand. He appeared to be in deep thought. A smile was upon his countenance, which made me tremble, it was so full of evil and satanic slyness. This smile is the one he wears just before he makes sure of his victim, and as he fastens the victim in his snare, this smile grows horrible. {EW 152.3} ...” - Early Writings, Page 152 -- Ellen G. White Writings

Does not this match exactly what scripture says of the devil? Oh, Yes! He is a real tangible being, here on this very earth. He is not a figment of the imagination, not a wispy aetherial smoke, not a fairy tale, but a most dangerous enemy, often invisible (unseen by the eye) to us. Yet, we are warned of him in scripture. This being is completely foreign to this earth, and brought his lies with him, and attempts to make this world his base of operations to assault the rest of the Heavens above!

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 13, 2021

Scripture also speaks of these in the Heavens:

"Cherub": Exodus 25:19, 37:8; 2 Samuel 22:11; 1 Kings 6:24,25,26,27; 2 Chronicles 3:11,12; Ezra 2:59; Nehemiah 7:61; Psalms 18:10; Ezra 9:3, 10:2,4,7,9, 28:14,16, 41:18.

"Cherubims": Genesis 3:24; Exodus 25:18,19,20,22, 26:1,31, 36:8,35, 37:7,8,9; Numbers 7:89; 1 Samuel 4:4; 2 Samuel 6:2; 1 Kings 6:23,25,27,28,29,32,35, 7:29,36, 8:6,7; 2 Kings 19:15; 1 Chronicles 13:6, 28:18; 2 Chronicles 3:7,10,11,13,14, 5:7,8; Psalms 80:1, 99:1; Isaiah 37:16; Ezekiel 10:1,2,3,5,6,7,8,9,15,16,18,19,20, 11:22, 41:18,20,25; Hebrews 9:5.

"Seraphims": Isaiah 6:2,6. (see also the same word, with differing spelling, "teraphim", Judges 17:5, 18:14,17,18,20; Hosea 3:4, "Seraphim" is to "Teraphim", as "Shekel", Genesis 24:22, &c, is to "Tekel"; Daniel 5:25,27, or as "Satan" (Shaitan), is to Titan (Taitan))

"Living Creatures": Ezekiel 1:5,13,14,15,19, 3:13, see also these in “Ezekiel 10:1,2,3,5,6,7,8,9,15,16,18,19,20, 11:22”; see also "four beasts": Revelation 4:6,8, 5:6,8,11,14, 6:1,6, 7:11, 14:3, 15:7, 19:4. The “four beasts” ['four living creatures'] that also surround the “Throne” of God, Revelation 4:6,7,8,9, 5:6,8,11,14, 6:1,3,5,6,7, 7:11, 14:3, 15:7, 19:4, and speaks of these distinctively from even the others present.

"Four and Twenty Elders": Revelation 4:4,10, 5:5,6,8,11,14, 7:11,13, 11:16, 14:3, 19:4; see also “ancients”: Isaiah 24:23

"Sons of God" (Heavenly, unfallen Beings, the unfallen Rulers or Representatives of the Unfallen worlds in Heaven): Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7.

"angels" (Heavenly created messengers for God), aka "morning stars" (Job 38:7), or "stars" (Isaiah 14:13) or "hosts of Heaven", "watchers", "legions", "saints" (holy ones in Heaven above), "the whole family in heaven" (Ephesians 3:15), "so great a cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12:1), etc.

'archangels' (Heavenly created messengers for God, angels who lead other angels), like "Gabriel" (Daniel 8:16, 9:21; Luke 1:19,26), and 'Herald' (Genesis 17-19; Luke 24:4; John 20:12; Acts 1:10, etc) and "angels that excel in strength", or "mighty angels".

The Lord of “Hosts” [sabaoth] [texts will generally be dualistic, for godly men [whose names written in heaven] and angelic beings [who physically are in/from heaven]]:

Exodus 12:41; 1 Samuel 1:3,11, 4:4, 15:2, 17:45; 2 Samuel 5:10, 6:2,18, 7:8,26,27; 1 Kings 18:15, 19:10,14; 2 Kings 3:14, 19:31; 1 Chronicles 11:9, 17:7,24; Psalms 24:10, 46:7,11, 48:8, 59:5, 69:6, 80:4,7,14,19, 84:1,3,8,12, 89:8, 103:21; Isaiah 1:9,24, 2:12, 3:1,15, 5:7,9,16,24, 6:3,5, 8:13,18, 9:7,13,19, 10:16,23,24,26,33, 13:4,13, 14:12,23,24,27, 17:3, 18:7, 19:4,12,16,17,18,20,25, 21:10, 22:5,12,14,15,25, 23:9, 24:23, 25:6, 28:5,22,29, 29:6, 31:4,5, 37:16,32, 39:5, 44:6, 45:13, 47:4, 48:2, 51:15, 54:5; Jeremiah 2:19, 5:14, 6:6,9, 7:3,21, 8:3, 9:7,15,17, 10:16, 11:17,20,22, 15:16, 16:9, 19:3,11,15, 20:12, 23:15,16,36, 25:8,27,28,29,32, 26:18, 27:4,18,19,21, 28:2,14, 29:4,8,17,21,25, 30:8, 31:23,35, 32:14,15,18, 33:11,12, 35:13,17,18,19, 38:17, 39:16, 42:15,18, 43:10, 44:2,7,11,25, 46:10,18,25, 48:1,15, 49:5,7,26,35, 50:18,25,31,33,34, 51:5,14,19,33,57,58; Hosea 12:5; Amos 3:13, 4:13, 5:14,15,16,27, 6:8,14, 9:5; Micah 4:4; Nahum 2:13, 3:5; Habakkuk 2:13; Zephaniah 2:9,10; Haggai 1:2,5,7,9,14, 2:4,6,7,8,9,11,23; Zechariah 1:3,4,6,12,14,16,17, 2:8,9,11, 3:7,9,10, 4:6,9, 5:4, 6:12,15, 7:3,4,9,12,13, 8:1,2,3,4,6,7,9,11,14,18,19,20,21,22,23, 9:15, 10:3, 12:5, 13:2,7, 14:16,17,21; Malachi 1:4,6,8,9,10,11,13,14, 2:2,4,7,8,12,16, 3:1,5,7,10,11,12,14,17, 4:1,3

The King of “heaven” [which means there are beings in Heaven that God is King over]:

Daniel 4:37

The Lord of “Heaven” [which means there are beings in Heaven that God is Lord over]:

Matthew 11:25; Luke 10:21; Acts 17:24

The “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS” [there are Kings and Lords in Heaven, beneath God's rulership]:

1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 17:14, 19:16

The “Throne of God”, by which God rules all, those in the heavens, and in earth:

1 Kings 22:19; 2 Chronicles 18:18; Job 26:9; Psalms 9:4,7, 11:4, 45:6, 47:8. 89:14, 93:2, 97:2, 103:19; Isaiah 6:1, 66:1; Jeremiah 3:17, 17:12; Lamentations 5:19; Ezekiel 1:26, 10:1, 43:7; Daniel 7:9; Zechariah 6:13; Matthew 5:34, 23:22; Acts 7:49; Hebrews 1:8, 4:16, 8:1, 12:2; Revelation 1:4, 3:21, 4:2,3,4,5,6,9,10, 5:1,6,7,11,13, 6:16, 7:9,10,11,15,17, 8:3, 12:5, 14:3,5, 16:17, 19:4,5, 20:11, 21:5, 22:1,3

The “kingdom of Heaven” [thus there are beings in Heaven which make up an heavenly kingdom, to be ruled by the King of Heaven, for instance: “... Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.” [Matthew 6:10 KJB] and “... Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.” [Luke 11:2 KJB]]:

1 Chronicles 29:11; Daniel 2:44, 4:34, 7:27; Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 5:3,10,19,20, 6:10, 7:21, 8:11, 10:7, 11:11,12, 13:11,24,31,33,44,45,47,52, 16:19, 18:1,3,4,23, 19:12,14,23, 20:1, 22:2, 23:13, 25:1,14; Luke 11:2

The “Kingdom of God” [beings and places in heaven which make up God's kingdom of Heaven, and of which the Christians from this earth, are to become connected to once more, no longer to be separated from the continent of heaven]:

Matthew 6:33, 12:28, 19:29, 21:31,43; Mark 1:14,15, 4:11,26,30, 9:1,47, 10:14,15,23,24,25, 12:34, 14:25, 15:43; Luke 4:43, 6:20, 7:28, 8:1,10, 9:2,11,27,60,62, 10:9,11, 11:20, 12:31, 13:18,20,28,29, 14:15, 16:16, 17:20,21, 18:16,17,24,25,29, 19:11, 21:31, 22:16,18, 23:51; John 3:3,5; Acts 1:3, 8:12, 14:22, 19:8, 20:25, 28:23,31; Romans 14:17; 1 Corinthians 4:20, 6:9,10, 15:24,50; Galatians 5:21; Ephesians 5:5; Colossians 4:11; 1 Thessalonians 2:12; 2 Thessalonians 1:5, 4:1; Hebrews 1:8, 12:28; James 2:5; Revelation 1:9, 12:10

Heavenly “thrones”:

Daniel 7:9; Matthew 19:28; Colossians 1:16; Revelation 4:4, 11:16, 20:4

Heavenly “dominions”, though God ruleth over all of the created:

Job 25:2; Psalms 103:22, 114:2, 145:13; Daniel 4:3,34, 6:26; Micah 4:8

Compare, to this world, before sin, a dominion was given to Adam the first, to rule, like as unto the other beings and the other unfallen worlds:

Genesis 1:26,28; Psalms 8:6

Compare to the Dominion of Jesus, the second and last Adam [1 Corinthians 15:45,47 KJB] and His everlasting Dominion:

Psalms 72:8; Daniel 7:27; Zechariah 9:10; 1 Peter 4:11, 5:11; Jude 1:25; Revelation 1:6; Ephesians 1:20-21; Colossians 1:16; Jude 1:8

Heavenly “principalities”:

Romans 8:38; Ephesians 1:20-21, 3:10, 6:12; Colossians 1:16, 2:15; Titus 3:1

Heavenly “powers” (authorities):

Ephesians 1:20-21, 3:10, 6:12; Colossians 1:16; Titus 3:1; 1 Peter 3:22

The “rulers of ...” of Heaven:

Ephesians 6:12

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 13, 2021

Revelation 5:3,4 speaks that “no man” [literally 'and no one', “καιG2532 CONJ ουδειςG3762 A-NSM-N” and literally 'no one was found' οτιG3754 CONJ ουδειςG3762 A-NSM-N αξιοςG514 A-NSM ευρεθηG2147 V-API-3S] in “Heaven” [neither anywhere in all creation] was able to open the Sealed Scroll/Book, except Christ Jesus, and so again we see others in Heaven:

And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. Revelation 5:3

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. Revelation 5:4

Revelation 5:13 speaks about “every creature which is in heaven”, even “all that are in” it, again revealing there are other created beings in Heaven:

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Revelation 5:13

Revelation 19:14 speaks of the very “armies of Heaven” [see also vs 19 “his army”] and God is called in several places “the LORD [God] of Hosts [Sabaoth]”:

And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Revelation 19:4

And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. Romans 9:29

Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. James 5:4

Revelation 19:5,6 speaks about “all ye his servants” and “...the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of many thunderings, saying, Alleluia...”

Jesus even speaks of the “far country”, which also refers to the end of Heaven:

They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. Isaiah 13:5

Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: Matthew 21:33

For [the kingdom of heaven is] as a man travelling into a far country, [who] called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. Matthew 25:14

And he began to speak unto them by parables. A [certain] man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about [it], and digged [a place for] the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country. Mark 12:1

He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. Luke 19:12

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Daniel 7:13

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:14

Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time. Luke 20:9

Paul speaks of that we ought to set our hearts on “things above”:

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Colossians 3:1

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. Colossians 3:2

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 13, 2021

24 Elders (Ancients), the 4 Living Creatures (beasts) and the Sons of God in Heaven:

In short, the 4 "living creatures", or the "four beasts" are all the unfallen peoples of the unfallen worlds, a representation of the universal Kingdom of God. A beast in prophecy, is a Kingdom, or Nation, or political body of persons [Daniel 7:17,19 KJB, etc, such as: Genesis 49:9; Isaiah 27:1, 46:11; Jeremiah 4:7, 5:6, 12:8, 25:38, 49:19, 50:44; Ezekiel 17:3,7, 32:2; Daniel 7:7,19,23, 8:20,21; Joel 1:6; Micah 5:8; Revelation 13:1,2,3,7,11,12, 17:3,7,8,11,12, etc., KJB].

The number 4, is the universal number [Genesis 2:10; Exodus 20:8-11 KJB, see four winds, north, south, east and west, four corners, four quarters, the four things in Proverbs, etc, etc], the number of the 4 quarters of space and time [as in the 4th generation]. Thus they represent all of the Heavenly kingdom of God before His throne, all the unfallen worlds circling the throne of Deity. Each of the four faces, represent a character of God, Godly, Kingly, Exalted, Humble, even as the Four Gospels portray Jesus, etc.

In short, the 24 "Elders" or "ancients", are the Heavenly council, the 'presbyters' [if you please], of the unfallen Leaders of the unfallen worlds, the very “sons of God” who rule the unfallen worlds, as Adam [Luke 3:38 KJB], the first [1 Corinthians 15:45,46,47 KJB], on earth had [Genesis 1:26,28; Psalms 8:5 KJB] before his fall, and the angelic "morning stars". They are the central representation of all the unfallen worlds, the General Conference of Heaven if you please. They are not human [but take the prayers of the saints on earth before God, Revelation 5:7-8 KJB, as this is what unfallen Heavenly beings do, Daniel 9:21-23; Matthew 18:10; Acts 10:3-4 KJB, etc]. Also there are 24 hours in a day, which also corresponds with time, 12 hours in the daytime [John 11:9 KJB], 12 in the nighttime [Genesis 1:4; Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB], as there are 12 Patriarchs in the OT [Genesis 35:22 KJB, etc], and 12 Apostles in the NT [Matthew 10:2; Luke 6:13, 22:14; Revelation 21:14 KJB]. 12 Gates and 12 Foundations [Revelation 21:12,13,21 KJB] of the Heavenly city, New Jersualem [Galatians 4:26; Revelation 3:12, 21:2,10, 22:19 KJB]. There is no night in the city of God in Heaven.

Each of the 24 Elders have crowns already [thus are not the redeemed, who do not get crowns until after the resurrection, and they already existed in the OT] and white [Light] raiment as Adam did when he was given dominion [stewardship] of this world, before sin.

Revelation 4 - “God's Throne” = “Table of Shewbread” in the Holy Place. Where is the Table of Shewbread in the Sanctuary? Right side = North Side. Exodus 26:35, 40:22; Isaiah 14:13; Psalms 75:6; “a crown of gold” - Exodus 25:24; 2 places (Father & Son) – Leviticus 24:5-7; “bread” - Deuteronomy 8:3; Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4; John 6:57, 14:24. “right hand”. God's Throne is movable, see Ezekiel, wheels, etc. God the Father and Throne began in the Most Holy Place, and moved to Meet Jesus in the Holy Place in Revelation 4. In Revelation 3, they moved into the Most Holy Place. Notice the words, “set” and “sat”.

4 “Beasts” (Living Creatures) – Ezekiel 1:5,13,14,15,19, 3:3, 10:1,2,3,5,6,7,8,9,15,16,18,19,20, 11:22; Revelation 4:6,8, 5:6,8,11,14, 6:1,6, 7:11, 14:3, 15:7, 19:4. See also the two cherubim on the ark, and the two greater Cherubim that Solomon made in the Stone Temple, making 4. “Living” also means filled with the Spirit of God, see Genesis 2:7.

“Beasts” = Kingdoms, and since they are Heavenly “Beasts:”, they are representing Heavenly Kingdoms/Waters, etc. Daniel 7:17,19; Genesis 49:9; Isaiah 27:1, 46:11; Jeremiah 4:7, 5:6, 12:8, 25:38, 49:19, 50:44; Ezekiel 17:3,7, 32:2; Daniel 7:7,17,19,23, 8:20,21; Joel 1:6; Micah 5:8; Revelation 13:1,2,3,7,11,12, 17:3,7,8,11,12, etc.

“Four” = universal; Genesis 2:10; Exodus 20:8-11, etc.

24 = 12x2, 6x4, 8x3, etc.

“elders” = “ancients”/”old”, “grayheaded”, also indicates “overseer”, leading positions.

24 elders = strong angels, leaders of the unfallen worlds, and are NOT (*) human. - Revelation 4:4,10, 5:5,6,8,11,14, 7:11,13, 11:16, 14:3, 19:4; Isaiah 24:23 (ancients), see also Ezekiel 8:15-17, 11:1-2. See also the type in the OT on earth, which mirrored that which existed in Heaven - Numbers 1:50-53, 2:2-3,5,7,10,12,14,16,17,18,20,22,24,25,27,29,31,34, 3:17,23,29,35,38; Deuteronomy 1:15; 1 Chronicles 27:1-15

Matthew ten Verseight · Jun 13, 2021

What about Revelation 5:6, “redeemed us”? This is only a single text, and is not to be abused/wrested. It must always be in the mouth of two or three witnesses. How we know that they (24 Elders) are not human -

1. They already have crowns. The saints (human) of God, do not get those until their resurrection/translation. 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12; 1 Peter 5:4, see also Hebrews 2:7,9; 2 Timothy 2:5, as Jesus received Crown.

2. They already have white robes. They are sinless.

3. They do not ever appear in Revelation with victory Palms, but only the human saints who were resurrected and translated do.

4. We know who they are NOT – They are not the Apostles (12 or Paul), since they are all still deceased in the first death (for they all died after Jesus ascended, and John is the one writing Revelation on the Isle of Patmos), and not resurrected. They are not any of Adam, Noah, Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, or any of the 12 Sons of Jacob/Israel, David, since they are still deceased in the first death, and not resurrected (see Hebrews 11, Abraham, etc is still waiting, see Acts 2, David is still waiting, etc), and it only included a special group (firstfruits/wavesheaf) that was buried around Jerusalem (thus possibly John the Baptist, but scripture, and SoP/ToJ do not ever say who or how many). The only other humans in Heaven before then was Enoch, Elijah (both taken up without seeing death), Moses (specially resurrected and taken, texts upon request).

5. Some try to link the special resurrection around Jerusalem, in Matthew 27, when Jesus resurrected to the '24'. Yet, we are never told in any location exactly who or how many were in that special resurrection, and there is no indication of young or old – see Psalms 24:1-10, 68:18; Ephesians 4:8; 1 Corinthians 15:20,23; Isaiah 26:19.

6. Neither Jesus, nor the specially resurrected saints from Jerusalem, nor even the 'angels' are seen in Revelation 4, at all. It is only the Father, the 4 Beasts (Living Creatures) and the 24 Elders/Ancients, which are all already present before Jesus even shows up with 'victory train'.

7. Jesus shows up, along with the angels in Revelation 5, after which we were already introduced to the 24 Elders/Ancients in Revelation 4.

8. The “thrones” (principalities, powers, etc) of Heaven, already existed before earth was even created, see also John 14:1-3 (a place, which was vacant by the angels which left their first estate/(arch)offices); Matthew 18:10-14; Luke 15:3-7; Revelation 12:12; Hebrews 1:2, 11:3; Job 1:6, 2:1; 1 Kings 22:19-24; 2 Chronicles 18:18-23; Colossians 1:6; Isaiah 14:13; etc.

9. The 24 Elders have in their hands the “incense” “with” the “prayers of the saints”, which means they are praying/singing on behalf of someone else, see that Angels, etc carry prayer to heaven, Daniel 9:21-23, 10:11; Matthew 18:10; Acts 10:34, and see that Angels are “ministering spirits” - Hebrews 1:7,14; Psalms 104:4, and thus connect with Revelation 5:8-11. Jesus speaks on behalf of the Father (and comes in the name of the Father), and the Holy Ghost speaks on behalf of Jesus (ie, comes in the name of Jesus).

What then about the “crowns” that the 24 Elders wear, are they not a “stephanos” (a victory crown)? They are “stephanos”, but this can simply mean a crown worn, though it can also mean a victory crown (didn't Jesus also win the victory for the heavenly beings also? Rejoice ye heavens, etc, Revelation 12), see also Revelation 9:7, wherein the 'locust' also have something like a 'crown' (stephanos). See also the so-called LXX (work of Origen, etc) uses, wherein it is just a crown, see so-called LXX 2 Samuel 12:30; 1 Chronicles 20:2; Esther 8:15; Psalms 21:3, 65:11; Proverbs 1:9, 4:9; Job 19:9, 31:36; Ezekiel 16:12, 21:31, 23:42; Isaiah 22:18,21; Song of Solomon 3:11; Psalms 102:4, and see also the LXX (Apocrypha) 1 Maccabees 10:20, 13:37,39; Sirach 6:31, 15:6, 32:2, 40:4, 45:12, etc. The other worlds also had tests similar to that of Adam. They never sinned.

(*) SoP/ToJ – Letter 65, 1898, par. 18; MR 12 (921-999), 296.4; MR 20 (1420-1500), 197.3 – (citing Revelation 5:5; “elder”) - “... that one of the strong angels had compassion on him, and laying his hand on him assuringly said, “Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. ...”

(*) SoP/ToJ – Sermons and Talks, Volume 1, 35.2; Signs of the Times, Dec. 22, 1887, par. 7 – (citing Revelation 7:13-15; “elder”) - “... And the angel answers, “These are they which came out of great tribulation ...”

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