How long were the Israelites in Egypt?

[atpollard]

Anyway, what about Mathematical Criticism?

As long as you don’t start talking about secret codes hidden in the Bible ... my eyes glaze over and I nod right off.

 

[Andrew]

As long as you don’t start talking about secret codes hidden in the Bible ... my eyes glaze over and I nod right off.

Ha! The Bible Code, I almost forgot about that

 

[Andrew]

FYI ... Your video jumps off the rails at about 4:20 when you start falsely ascribing the Masoretic Text as the “forbidden fruit” from which all evil translations spring. That is factually and historically incorrect. Even setting aside all Hebrew texts, the texts you sited in support of the 215 years in Cannan and 215 years in Egypt have both internal inconsistencies and inconsistencies between them that point to spurious words added to the texts and casting doubts on the 215 year solution.

When one adds to that the actual Hebrew scroll fragments of Exodus that predate the Maesoretic text (and the Septuagint) that agree with the later Masoretic Text and form the basis of the Majority Text that modern translations are actually based on ... the 430 years in Egypt becomes more likely than not the original wording in Exodus.

You can still ask for an explanation, but you cannot say that the Septuagint is the original wording and the Masoretic Text is a mistranslation when the oldest manuscripts indicate exactly the opposite for Exodus 12:20.

"forbidden fruit"?
Nathan is just stating that the Septuagint is a translation from an earlier, more original Hebrew Text

 

[NathanH83]

FYI ... Your video jumps off the rails at about 4:20 when you start falsely ascribing the Masoretic Text as the “forbidden fruit” from which all evil translations spring. That is factually and historically incorrect. Even setting aside all Hebrew texts, the texts you sited in support of the 215 years in Cannan and 215 years in Egypt have both internal inconsistencies and inconsistencies between them that point to spurious words added to the texts and casting doubts on the 215 year solution.

When one adds to that the actual Hebrew scroll fragments of Exodus that predate the Maesoretic text (and the Septuagint) that agree with the later Masoretic Text and form the basis of the Majority Text that modern translations are actually based on ... the 430 years in Egypt becomes more likely than not the original wording in Exodus.

You can still ask for an explanation, but you cannot say that the Septuagint is the original wording and the Masoretic Text is a mistranslation when the oldest manuscripts indicate exactly the opposite for Exodus 12:20.

Paul says in Galatians 3:17 that the 430 years starts with Abraham receiving the promise, and ends with Moses receiving the law.

Abraham received the promise when he entered the land of Canaan. Moses received the law when they left the land of Egypt.

Paul is saying 430 years in Egypt and Canaan, which agrees with the Septuagint.

 

[NathanH83]

FYI ... Your video jumps off the rails at about 4:20 when you start falsely ascribing the Masoretic Text as the “forbidden fruit” from which all evil translations spring. That is factually and historically incorrect. Even setting aside all Hebrew texts, the texts you sited in support of the 215 years in Cannan and 215 years in Egypt have both internal inconsistencies and inconsistencies between them that point to spurious words added to the texts and casting doubts on the 215 year solution.

When one adds to that the actual Hebrew scroll fragments of Exodus that predate the Maesoretic text (and the Septuagint) that agree with the later Masoretic Text and form the basis of the Majority Text that modern translations are actually based on ... the 430 years in Egypt becomes more likely than not the original wording in Exodus.

You can still ask for an explanation, but you cannot say that the Septuagint is the original wording and the Masoretic Text is a mistranslation when the oldest manuscripts indicate exactly the opposite for Exodus 12:20.

When it comes to other inconsistencies in the Greek Septuagint or the Samaritan Pentateuch, those can be dealt with on an individual basis.

But when it comes to this one individual issue in regards to the Israelites’ sojourn in Egypt, Paul is agreeing with the Septuagint.

Why?

 

[Andrew]

Paul says in Galatians 3:17 that the 430 years starts with Abraham receiving the promise, and ends with Moses receiving the law.

Abraham received the promise when he entered the land of Canaan. Moses received the law when they left the land of Egypt.

Paul is saying 430 years in Egypt and Canaan, which agrees with the Septuagint.

Pfffft! Since when does mathematical criticism matter?

And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter. And Laban said, It is better that I give her to thee, than that I should give her to another man: abide with me. And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her. And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her. And Laban gathered together all the men of the place, and made a feast. And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her. And Laban gave unto his daughter Leah Zilpah his maid for an handmaid. And it came to pass, that in the morning, behold, it was Leah: and he said to Laban, What is this thou hast done unto me? did not I serve with thee for Rachel? wherefore then hast thou beguiled me? And Laban said, It must not be so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn. Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years. And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also. And Laban gave to Rachel his daughter Bilhah his handmaid to be her maid. And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.
Genesis 29:18-30

 

[TonyC7]

I think you did an excellent job on your video of the chronology of the sojourn in Egypt. One of the most interesting Bible chronology mysteries to me is Daniel's 70 weeks, and in particular the first 69 weeks counting down to Christ. So far the most in-depth and best studies on this I can find on youtube is by a sort of I guess "new" channel that did it as their first study series. They do a great job with information, citing sources, and charts but no animated timeline special effects like you use. I think it would be awesome for you to do a quick video of the Daniel 69 weeks countdown but using your sweet video skills. (Ive linked the Daniel study - awesome info)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLviUu8MYaMkPhTCpJqEtjcM2kOqs-lqeu

 

[NathanH83]

I think you did an excellent job on your video of the chronology of the sojourn in Egypt. One of the most interesting Bible chronology mysteries to me is Daniel's 70 weeks, and in particular the first 69 weeks counting down to Christ. So far the most in-depth and best studies on this I can find on youtube is by a sort of I guess "new" channel that did it as their first study series. They do a great job with information, citing sources, and charts but no animated timeline special effects like you use. I think it would be awesome for you to do a quick video of the Daniel 69 weeks countdown but using your sweet video skills. (Ive linked the Daniel study - awesome info)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLviUu8MYaMkPhTCpJqEtjcM2kOqs-lqeu

That’s actually kind of what I’m studying right now. I just learned recently that Daniel 8 and 11 prophesy about the events in Maccabees. But yea, I’d really love to learn how to understand the 70 weeks in Daniel, and really get a firm grip on them. I’d need to actually understand it first though before I make a video on it, but that’s definitely something I’m interested in, since it’s a countdown that points to the time the Messiah shows up. It would be great to listen to the objections of Jews, and find the answers to those questions, and why the Messiah had to show up at this time.

 

[TonyC7]

That’s actually kind of what I’m studying right now. I just learned recently that Daniel 8 and 11 prophesy about the events in Maccabees. But yea, I’d really love to learn how to understand the 70 weeks in Daniel, and really get a firm grip on them. I’d need to actually understand it first though before I make a video on it, but that’s definitely something I’m interested in, since it’s a countdown that points to the time the Messiah shows up. It would be great to listen to the objections of Jews, and find the answers to those questions, and why the Messiah had to show up at this time.

The guy who did the study on it that I linked includes a section specifically on the Jewish writings. I think its one of the last three videos in the series. All directly sourced from the Talmud, all the Jewish writings, quotes from top rabbis etc. And the thing that blew my mind was the video on the Temple-related miracles that prove the Messiah had to arrive prior to the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. I think its the final video. Really cool stuff and the fact that you can prove it all from history is what really gets me. Alot of people make timelines and make big statements but don't cite their sources or don't use reliable sources etc.

 

[atpollard]

deleted incorrect information.

 

[atpollard]

Paul says in Galatians 3:17 that the 430 years starts with Abraham receiving the promise, and ends with Moses receiving the law.

Abraham received the promise when he entered the land of Canaan. Moses received the law when they left the land of Egypt.

Paul is saying 430 years in Egypt and Canaan, which agrees with the Septuagint.

Galatians 3:17 does appear to agree with the modern Septuagint (the original only survives in quoted fragments). I believe I acknowledged that point and the scholarly article that I posted a link to goes into detail on that exact point.

So what?

That does not change the fact that pre-Septuagint fragments of Exodus from sources like the Dead Sea Scrolls that predate the writing of the Septuagint agree with the Masoretic Text on 430 years in Egypt and various Septuagint Manuscripts change the order of the words “Cannan and Egypt” to “Egypt and Cannan” marking the extra words as potential late editions to “fix” perceived errors. Josephus affirms both 215 years and 400 years in the same “Histories” ... making his testimony self-contradictory at best and completely unreliable for ancient history at worst.

I acknowledged that Galatians vs Exodus is a good question.
The Septuagint does not hold the key to the answer.
Exodus SAYS what it says and Galatians SAYS what it says.
The best manuscript evidence says NEITHER is mistranslated.

Talk of the true Septuagint vs the false Masoretic Text is the Theological equivalent of “some ECF stole the election and we have an unofficial Bible”. There is no evidence for invisible conspiracy theories being fact ... then or now.

 

[pinacled]

You’re being very cryptic. As a result, I don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.

I just want to know how it adds up to 430.

And you're obviously teaching a numeric dual house theology.

Matthew 12

 

[NathanH83]

And you're obviously teaching a numeric dual house theology.

Matthew 12

I don’t know what that means

 

[NathanH83]

Galatians 3:17 does appear to agree with the modern Septuagint (the original only survives in quoted fragments). I believe I acknowledged that point and the scholarly article that I posted a link to goes into detail on that exact point.

So what?

That does not change the fact that pre-Septuagint fragments of Exodus from sources like the Dead Sea Scrolls that predate the writing of the Septuagint agree with the Masoretic Text on 430 years in Egypt and various Septuagint Manuscripts change the order of the words “Cannan and Egypt” to “Egypt and Cannan” marking the extra words as potential late editions to “fix” perceived errors. Josephus affirms both 215 years and 400 years in the same “Histories” ... making his testimony self-contradictory at best and completely unreliable for ancient history at worst.

I acknowledged that Galatians vs Exodus is a good question.
The Septuagint does not hold the key to the answer.
Exodus SAYS what it says and Galatians SAYS what it says.
The best manuscript evidence says NEITHER is mistranslated.

Talk of the true Septuagint vs the false Masoretic Text is the Theological equivalent of “some ECF stole the election and we have an unofficial Bible”. There is no evidence for invisible conspiracy theories being fact ... then or now.

So what do you say?
430 or 215?

 

[pinacled]

So what do you say?
430 or 215?

I say 430 is a number to be reckoned with egypt till its existence is no more a wilderness to feared.

And the prophets agree

 

[atpollard]

So what do you say?
430 or 215?

“So what do you say? 430 or 215?” ... I say “430 years” as does scripture (which never says ‘215 years’ in any verse.) However, I say we are asking the wrong question when we attempt to judge one verse correct and another in error.

Why does Moses say 430 years in Egypt and why does Paul say 430 years from the promise to the law?
This is the true question that should be asked.

 

[pinacled]

“So what do you say? 430 or 215?” ... I say “430 years” as does scripture (which never says ‘215 years’ in any verse.) However, I say we are asking the wrong question when we attempt to judge one verse correct and another in error.

Why does Moses say 430 years in Egypt and why does Paul say 430 years from the promise to the law?
This is the true question that should be asked.

From hagar the egyptian till torah.
Circumcision of flesh till Circumcision in spirit.

Excellent post sir pollard

 

[NathanH83]

“So what do you say? 430 or 215?” ... I say “430 years” as does scripture (which never says ‘215 years’ in any verse.) However, I say we are asking the wrong question when we attempt to judge one verse correct and another in error.

Why does Moses say 430 years in Egypt and why does Paul say 430 years from the promise to the law?
This is the true question that should be asked.

Seems to me that Moses said “430 years in Egypt AND Canaan.” That would reconcile Paul’s words with Moses’.

And then somebody changed the Hebrew, while the Septuagint still words it correctly.

How do you reconcile it?

 

[NathanH83]

Amazing how many people don’t want to listen to basic math. The sure signs of denial.

 

[atpollard]

Seems to me that Moses said “430 years in Egypt AND Canaan.”

It seems to me that the overwhelming consensus of scholars that have dedicated their careers to Textural Criticism have concluded from the actual manuscript evidence and linguistic analysis and extra-biblical writings (like letters from ECF and Rabbinical traditions) the exact opposite of your opinion.

How do you explain that all of the experts got it wrong and a handful of amateurs had an epiphany?
Do you think that Bible Scholars WANT the texts to disagree, or they are genuinely convinced that Exodus said “Egypt” (without the Cannan added in the later Septuagint) and are unwilling to change the Word of God.