Bringing Religion back into the schools...

[Ruth]

To many atheists (like myself), one religious imposition is the same as any other, but to the religious, the imposition of another religion is far worse, and especially to members of a particular religion who have enjoyed having their religion being imposed upon everyone else in their society for centuries. Such people have little experience being on the receiving end of this kind of imposition, and find it far more shocking than those who experience it daily.

It would be like taking a black man and a white man (both from the U.S.) and putting them in a society of green people, where non-greens are discriminated against. The white man would find this discrimination to be more shocking than the black man, who has grown accustomed to such treatment.

I would wager a large sum that if a teacher in my county began leading sequestered children in Muslim prayers, the most vociferous protests by a large margin would come from Christian parents.

I don't know what all Christians would do but I wouldn't mind Muslims taking their prayer time when they need to.

 

[MarkFL]

I don't know what all Christians would do but I wouldn't mind Muslims taking their prayer time when they need to.

But what if the children of Christian parents were told to bow their heads and be led in a prayer to Allah?

 

[Ruth]

But what if the children of Christian parents were told to bow their heads and be led in a prayer to Allah?

Well, I don't think they would like that. I was thinking if the Muslims wanted to go into a separate room and pray.

 

[Lamb]

I think when people talk about bringing religion back in the schools they are referring to Christianity. I don't recall the history books stating other religions being in the American school system. I could be wrong but I don't remember it.

 

[psalms 91]

I think when people talk about bringing religion back in the schools they are referring to Christianity. I don't recall the history books stating other religions being in the American school system. I could be wrong but I don't remember it.

Exactly but I think most understand that and just muddy the waters in order to press their agenda

 

[Lamb]

If the same statement was made 20 years ago would there be a question if which religion?

 

[MarkFL]

I ask Christians to consider their feelings about other religions being imposed by the state to get them to see how non-Christians view the pervasive and ongoing imposition of Christianity. Our founding fathers, many of whom were not Christians, recognized the dangers of a state imposed religion and wanted to avoid that pitfall when framing the constitution.

 

[Josiah]

I ask Christians to consider their feelings about other religions being imposed by the state to get them to see how non-Christians view the pervasive and ongoing imposition of Christianity. Our founding fathers, many of whom were not Christians, recognized the dangers of a state imposed religion and wanted to avoid that pitfall when framing the constitution.

While I don't disagree with you, IMO atheism is a religion and is often imposed by the state upon citizens....

And whereas I support freedom OF religion, I do not support a state imposed freedom FROM religion....

I'm not a historian, but my understanding is that the framers of the constitution wanted to avoid a FEDERAL state DENOMINATION (as was the case in all of Europe)... the USA having a STATE religion such as "Lutheran" or "Congregational" or "Episcopal." In that day, 'religion' didn't have the very modern defintion but simply meant denomination, faith community, Baptist or Catholic or whatever. And this only referred to the FEDERAL government, as I understand it, many states DID have STATE religions well after the Constitution.... I have a co-worker who grew up in New Hampshire (grad of Dartmouth) who noted that there's a congregational church in his small hometown that STILL is actually owned by the town, and the minister was a town employee and the church funded entirely by the town government well into the 1800's.

But yes, I understand many of these "founders" were only loosely "Christians" ... many belonged to a church, even went regularly to church, but were pretty "liberal" and often more deistic or universal/unitarian in theology if not membership. And I do understand they wanted to avoid the fights (sometimes literal) that happened over religion in Europe. I DO think they longed for religion to be a private, personal affair - protected by the state but not promoted by it.

I've already given my opinion vis-a-vis the question of the thread.



Pax


- Josiah

 

[MarkFL]

atheism is a religion and is often imposed by the state upon citizens....

A religion is a collection of faith-based beliefs, while atheism is a lack of such a system. Atheism is no more a religion than abstinence from sex is a sexual position. The only way we can protect the religious freedoms of everyone is to have a secular government. And freedom of religion must necessarily include freedom from religion.

 

[Josiah]

A religion is a collection of faith-based beliefs, while atheism is a lack of such a system. Atheism is no more a religion than abstinence from sex is a sexual position. The only way we can protect the religious freedoms of everyone is to have a secular government. And freedom of religion must necessarily include freedom from religion.

I respectfully disagree....


1. ATheism, by definition, is the dogmatic declaration that there is NO God (it's what the word means.... theism = God, put an "A" in front and it negates it, NO GOD). Atheism DENIES God and the supernatural, declares the world CLOSED to any supernatural.

Dictionary
atheism
noun athe·ism \ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm\
Definition of ATHEISM
1
archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2
a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity


2. No, freedom FROM religion is the antithesis of freedom OF religion. In the freedom OF speech, we are free TO speak - even if such is contrary to the thoughts of the State (albeit, States often deny this freedom - openly as once seen in the USSR or Nazi Germany or today in North Korea, or more hidden the "PC" mandates so common in the USA).... When there is a freedom FROM religion, religious belief and expression (including of Atheism) is forbidden - de facto or otherwise (as is the case in some schools, places of employment, etc. in the USA) and in some countries (some Muslim lands for example).


I don't think a government should PROMOTE a specific "religion" (including atheism) BUT I think it should PROTECT the free expression and exercise of such (including atheism - NO God). Perhaps we just disagree.



- Josiah

 

[MarkFL]

Yes, we disagree on the definition of atheism. Theism is a belief in gods (necessarily based on faith), while atheism is simply the lack of such a belief. It is not a declaration, nor is it a belief there are no gods. It is simply the lack of belief in gods. Thus, atheism cannot be considered to be a religion, since it is the lack of a religion.

 

[Josiah]

Yes, we disagree on the definition of atheism. Theism is a belief in gods (necessarily based on faith), while atheism is simply the lack of such a belief. It is not a declaration, nor is it a belief there are no gods. It is simply the lack of belief in gods. Thus, atheism cannot be considered to be a religion, since it is the lack of a religion.

I respectfully disagree. Atheism is a DOCTRINE regarding the divine, the supernatural. It DENIES such - dogmatically.

It COULD be argued (I think poorly, wrongly) that AGNOSTICISM is the lack of religion - Gnosis (knowledge, certainty), again that "A" negating it, thus its meaning of "no certainty." An agnostic states we do not (perhaps even cannot) be SURE, one way or the other. Actually, that too is a religion since it is a dogmatic stance on the issue - that we cannot or do not have certainty. But I realize SOME present that as a neutral position and I have found that most agnostics ARE neutral - with NO bias WHATSOEVER on whether the world is "closed" or not. But the few Atheists I've met have been FAR from "neutral" (well, none).


Again, to embrace a freedom FROM religion is to forbid the free exercise thereof and thus to deny any freedom OF religion.



- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

I ask Christians to consider their feelings about other religions being imposed by the state to get them to see how non-Christians view the pervasive and ongoing imposition of Christianity. Our founding fathers, many of whom were not Christians, recognized the dangers of a state imposed religion and wanted to avoid that pitfall when framing the constitution.

We are not talking state imposed so lets get that straight. Prayer in schools and at govt meetings was done without anything being passed and so on, the only reason it is being discussed now is because there has been so much pushing against it

 

[MarkFL]

We are not talking state imposed so lets get that straight. Prayer in schools and at govt meetings was done without anything being passed and so on, the only reason it is being discussed now is because there has been so much pushing against it

If religion is to be "put" in our schools and we revert back to a time where sequestered children were indoctrinated with religious beliefs, wouldn't that be the state since our public schools are run by the government?

Here in Florida prayer was recently allowed at govt. meetings, and those who pushed for it didn't stop to think that it would backfire on them. We now have people from all sorts of religions beginning such meeting with prayer, much to the dismay of those who pushed for it. People are all fine and dandy with religion being imposed on people...as long as it's their religion. But once they get a small taste of being on the receiving end of it, then there is much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Josiah]

We are not talking state imposed so lets get that straight. Prayer in schools and at govt meetings was done without anything being passed and so on, the only reason it is being discussed now is because there has been so much pushing against it

Interesting.... because secular, "public" schools may ASK FOR a "moment of silence" but....

Now, I realize, once upon a time, there was a STATED, WORDED prayer (incredibly vague - not even remotely Christian) that the teacher would lead (nothing mandated anyone pray it - although they did have to be silent). Now, THAT I have a problem with. But I see a silly contradiction in ASKING for a "moment of silence" but forbidding prayer (well, for Christians).

And I understand, here in the People's Republic of California, now in the STATE mandated curriculum, there is a Muslim Awareness thing... so that our mind controlled children will learn "the truth" about Islam and grow to be "tolerant." But ... don't even think about lessons on Christianity!!!! Kind of reminds me of the Black History Month back in college... but if you even SUGGESTED a "White History Month" you'd be shot as a racist bigot. Such is the not-so-subtle contradiction of "PC'ism" - the modern form of restricting freedom and controlling speech. It happens in religion, too.






- Josiah

 

[MarkFL]

...Now, I realize, once upon a time, there was a STATED, WORDED prayer (incredibly vague - not even remotely Christian) that the teacher would lead (nothing mandated anyone pray it - although they did have to be silent). Now, THAT I have a problem with. But I see a silly contradiction in ASKING for a "moment of silence" but forbidding prayer (well, for Christians).

When I was a child of 9, my teacher led us each and every day in the Lord's Prayer...a very explicitly Christian prayer. We were expected to recite it aloud, or leave the room. One boy did leave the room each morning as his parents had instructed him to do, and he was ostracized as children will do to anyone the least bit different. The teacher would give him a look of ridicule as well as he left, helping set the stage for us kids to see him as "not one of us."

I have no problem with a moment of silence in which children can either pray to whatever god they choose OR decide not to pray at all, but just be silent for that moment. The only issue I have on this is when children are told they have to pray, and to which god.

But, as I stated in my first post in this thread, the real issue for me is that children are being taught religion in place of and/or alongside science, at least in my neck of the woods. That does our children a huge disservice and everyone should find that objectionable, if they care about the education our children are receiving.

 

[Josiah]

When I was a child of 9, my teacher led us each and every day in the Lord's Prayer...a very explicitly Christian prayer.

IF this was at a public, secular school - I would disapprove. But then a friend told me that he was told in public, secular school that God did NOT create the universe which I would equally disapprove of.

Minor point to be sure, but while I completely agree that the Lord's Prayer is "Christian" in that only they pray it, actually the content is such that any Jew or Muslim could pray the same words. I'd be opposed to mandating it - but then I COULD see where it would be handled the same way as the Pledge of Allegience which also does NOT reflect the views of many and which is actually seen as evil or sinful by some (I think in public schools, such are either asked to be quiet or to leave the room). But MY preference would be to not LEAD that prayer (at least not a teacher).

But, as I stated in my first post in this thread, the real issue for me is that children are being taught religion in place of and/or alongside science, at least in my neck of the woods. That does our children a huge disservice and everyone should find that objectionable, if they care about the education our children are receiving.

I think we're going to disagree a bit there..... IMO, WHETHER OR NOT one accepts "evolution" .... WHETHER OR NOT one accepts a certain understanding of Genesis 1-2..... one CAN accept God as the Creator. I have two nieces (whom I love greatly). I consider both to be a Creation of God, a gift of God, and I praise God for them. That does NOT mean God is forbidden and prohibited from using "means" (I understand a BIT of the biology here, lol) but it's still GOD'S creation, HIS doing. God rarely acts immediately (without means) or solely by fiat. IMO, there's no conflict whatsoever in believing God is the Creator and that God used a knowable process in which to do so. Now... does that mean in six 24 hour days, in a certain sequence - that's another enchilada (where you and I may not so much disagree). When that teacher (reportedly) told his middle school students "God did not create the earth" THAT is a religious statement (and as dogmatic as is possible)... and I suspect violated school polity, but being snot-nosed 'tweens, I'm sure the students swallowed it and didn't report it (which may have been the expectation and hope of the teacher? IF indeed this happened).


I've already posted my views on the specific question of the thread....



- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

If religion is to be "put" in our schools and we revert back to a time where sequestered children were indoctrinated with religious beliefs, wouldn't that be the state since our public schools are run by the government?

Here in Florida prayer was recently allowed at govt. meetings, and those who pushed for it didn't stop to think that it would backfire on them. We now have people from all sorts of religions beginning such meeting with prayer, much to the dismay of those who pushed for it. People are all fine and dandy with religion being imposed on people...as long as it's their religion. But once they get a small taste of being on the receiving end of it, then there is much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Have you ever wondered why we have so much problem with this? Any other country with Muslim or Buddist leanings do impose. I dont suggest that we impose but I do suggest we go back to what worked for so long

 

[psalms 91]

Interesting.... because secular, "public" schools may ASK FOR a "moment of silence" but....

Now, I realize, once upon a time, there was a STATED, WORDED prayer (incredibly vague - not even remotely Christian) that the teacher would lead (nothing mandated anyone pray it - although they did have to be silent). Now, THAT I have a problem with. But I see a silly contradiction in ASKING for a "moment of silence" but forbidding prayer (well, for Christians).

And I understand, here in the People's Republic of California, now in the STATE mandated curriculum, there is a Muslim Awareness thing... so that our mind controlled children will learn "the truth" about Islam and grow to be "tolerant." But ... don't even think about lessons on Christianity!!!! Kind of reminds me of the Black History Month back in college... but if you even SUGGESTED a "White History Month" you'd be shot as a racist bigot. Such is the not-so-subtle contradiction of "PC'ism" - the modern form of restricting freedom and controlling speech. It happens in religion, too.






- Josiah

I agree I will never be PC nior do I want to be

 

[MarkFL]

I think we're going to disagree a bit there..... IMO, WHETHER OR NOT one accepts "evolution" .... WHETHER OR NOT one accepts a certain understanding of Genesis 1-2..... one CAN accept God as the Creator. I have two nieces (whom I love greatly). I consider both to be a Creation of God, a gift of God, and I praise God for them. That does NOT mean God is forbidden and prohibited from using "means" (I understand a BIT of the biology here, lol) but it's still GOD'S creation, HIS doing. God rarely acts immediately (without means) or solely by fiat. IMO, there's no conflict whatsoever in believing God is the Creator and that God used a knowable process in which to do so. Now... does that mean in six 24 hour days, in a certain sequence - that's another enchilada (where you and I may not so much disagree). When that teacher (reportedly) told his middle school students "God did not create the earth" THAT is a religious statement (and as dogmatic as is possible)... and I suspect violated school polity, but being snot-nosed 'tweens, I'm sure the students swallowed it and didn't report it (which may have been the expectation and hope of the teacher? IF indeed this happened).

Evolution is a fact...if one choose to deny it, then one choose to ignore all the evidence (and there is a mountain of evidence that must be ignored if making this dishonest choice). Creationism has no such evidence...it is based on faith. It isn't science, and should never be presented as such.

Have you ever wondered why we have so much problem with this? Any other country with Muslim or Buddhist leanings do impose. I dont suggest that we impose but I do suggest we go back to what worked for so long

For whom did it work? It certainly has not and does not work for me.