James, "the brother of the Lord."

[soul.]

There are those who either teach Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus) were sons of [St.] Joseph from a marriage prior to his with the Virgin Mary, and thus Jesus's stepbrothers, or were Jesus's half-brothers through His Mother, merely because they are called His "brother(s):"

"...his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude" (Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3)
"...James the brother of the Lord" (Gal. 1:19)

However, the word "brother" (ἀδελφός [adelphos]) has a range of meanings, e.g., "brother," "half-brother," "stepbrother," "cousin," "uncle," "nephew," "fellow believer," "fellow countryman," etc. Is there evidence the meanings "stepbrother" or "half-brother" applies in the aforementioned verses? The answer lies in identifying who "James the brother of the Lord" was and in Gal. 1:19 it is indicated he was an apostle:

"But other of the apostles I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord" (Gal. 1:19)

Of the twelve apostles, two shared the name "James:"

Apostle James, son of Zebedee. (Matt. 4:21, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10)
Apostle James, son of Alphaeus. (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

Apostle James of Zebedee was not the son of [St.] Joseph, his only brother was Apostle John (Matt. 4:21, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10, Ac. 12:1-2), and his mother is referred to only as "the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 20:20;27:56), and thus it is unobjectionable this apostle-James and "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 1:19 were not the same:

Apostle James, son of Zebedee. (Matt. 4:21, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10)
Apostle James, son of Alphaeus. (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

Apostle James of Alphaeus was not the son of [St.] Joseph, but he was the brother of [Apostle] Jude (Thaddeus) and Joseph (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13), which corresponds with Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3: brothers Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus), and Jd. 1:1: Jude, brother of James, and thus it is unobjectionable this apostle-James and "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 1:19, were the same. Is there evidence linking Simon's, Joseph's, James's, and Jude's (Thaddeus) father, Alphaeus, and Jesus's Mother, Mary? No, but there is evidence the mother of the four "brothers" of Jesus was also named "Mary:"

Mary, mother of James. (Mk. 16:1)

Mary of James. (Lk. 24:10)

Mary, mother of James and Joseph. (Matt. 27:56)

Mary, mother of James the Less and Joseph. (Mk. 15:40)

—
Testimonies of Early Church Fathers

Apostolic Father Papias of Hierapolis (c. 60–130 AD), who was a disciple of Apostle John, relates in his Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord the following: "Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphaeus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph."

[St.] Jerome (c. 347–420 CE) relates in his De Viris Illustribus (Concerning Illustrious Men) and De perpetua uirginitate beatae Mariae adversus Heluidium (Against Helvidius, on the Perpetual Virginity of the Virgin Mary), "Mary the mother of James the Less" (Mk. 15:40), and "Mary the wife of Cleophas/Clopas" (Jn. 19:25), were the same.

Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 260–340 AD) relates in his Church History (Book III, ch. 11) it is said a man named "Clopas" had a son named "Symeon" (Simon), and that the latter was Jesus's cousin, for Hegesippus records Clopas was the brother of [St.] Joseph.

Eusebius relates in his Church History (Book II, ch. 1), James, "the brother of the Lord," was surnamed "the Just," and first to be made Bishop of Jerusalem. He added: "Paul also makes mention of the same James the Just, where he writes, 'Other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.'" (Gal. 1:19)

Eusebius relates in his Church History (Book II, ch. 23) the following: "But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives the most accurate account in the fifth book of his Memoirs. He writes as follows: 'James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called 'the Just' by all from the time of our Savior to the present day; for there were many that bore the name of 'James.''"

As preserved by Eusebius in Church History (Book II, ch. 1), Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD) relates in his Hypotyposes (Book VII) James the Just was chosen to be Bishop of Jerusalem and that there were only two apostle-Jameses: "But there were two Jameses: one called "the Just," who was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple and was beaten to death with a club by a fuller, and another who was beheaded." The former, James "the Just," a.k.a. James "the brother of the Lord," could have only been Apostle James of Alphaeus, because the latter was Apostle James of Zebedee, brother to Apostle John of Zebedee: "And at the same time, Herod the king stretched forth his hands, to afflict some of the church. And he killed James, the brother of John, with the sword." (Act. 12:1-2)

—
In summary, the names and verses from scripture, and the testimonies of early Church Fathers I cited, sourced, and linked together, are strong evidence to support "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the Less," "James the Just," "James the Bishop of Jerusalem," and "Apostle James of Alphaeus" were the same, and that he, Simon, Joseph, and Jude (Thaddeus) were sons of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), [St.] Joseph's brother, and Mary (the wife of Cleophas/Clopas), the sister-in-law of Jesus's Mother, Mary. This disproves the teaching that states Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus) were Jesus's stepbrothers through [St.] Joseph, and undermines the teaching they were Jesus's half-siblings through His Mother, Mary. Therefore, the meanings "stepbrother" and "half-brother" of the word "brother(s)" do not apply to Jesus in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 1:19, rather "cousin."

†​

 

[eddif]

There are those who either teach Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus) were sons of [St.] Joseph from a marriage prior to his with the Virgin Mary, and thus Jesus's stepbrothers, or were Jesus's half-brothers through His Mother, merely because they are called His "brother(s):"

"...his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude" (Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3)
"...James the brother of the Lord" (Gal. 1:19)

However, the word "brother" (ἀδελφός [adelphos]) has a range of meanings, e.g., "brother," "half-brother," "stepbrother," "cousin," "uncle," "nephew," "fellow believer," "fellow countryman," etc. Is there evidence the meanings "stepbrother" or "half-brother" applies in the aforementioned verses? The answer lies in identifying who "James the brother of the Lord" was and in Gal. 1:19 it is indicated he was an apostle:

"But other of the apostles I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord" (Gal. 1:19)

Of the twelve apostles, two shared the name "James:"

Apostle James, son of Zebedee. (Matt. 4:21, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10)
Apostle James, son of Alphaeus. (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

Apostle James of Zebedee was not the son of [St.] Joseph, his only brother was Apostle John (Matt. 4:21, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10, Ac. 12:1-2), and his mother is referred to only as "the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 20:20;27:56), and thus it is unobjectionable this apostle-James and "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 1:19 were not the same:

Apostle James, son of Zebedee. (Matt. 4:21, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10)
Apostle James, son of Alphaeus. (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

Apostle James of Alphaeus was not the son of [St.] Joseph, but he was the brother of [Apostle] Jude (Thaddeus) and Joseph (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13), which corresponds with Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3: brothers Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus), and Jd. 1:1: Jude, brother of James, and thus it is unobjectionable this apostle-James and "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 1:19, were the same. Is there evidence linking Simon's, Joseph's, James's, and Jude's (Thaddeus) father, Alphaeus, and Jesus's Mother, Mary? No, but there is evidence the mother of the four "brothers" of Jesus was also named "Mary:"

Mary, mother of James. (Mk. 16:1)

Mary of James. (Lk. 24:10)

Mary, mother of James and Joseph. (Matt. 27:56)

Mary, mother of James the Less and Joseph. (Mk. 15:40)

—
Testimonies of Early Church Fathers

Apostolic Father Papias of Hierapolis (c. 60–130 AD), who was a disciple of Apostle John, relates in his Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord the following: "Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphaeus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph."

[St.] Jerome (c. 347–420 CE) relates in his De Viris Illustribus (Concerning Illustrious Men) and De perpetua uirginitate beatae Mariae adversus Heluidium (Against Helvidius, on the Perpetual Virginity of the Virgin Mary), "Mary the mother of James the Less" (Mk. 15:40), and "Mary the wife of Cleophas/Clopas" (Jn. 19:25), were the same.

Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 260–340 AD) relates in his Church History (Book III, ch. 11) it is said a man named "Clopas" had a son named "Symeon" (Simon), and that the latter was Jesus's cousin, for Hegesippus records Clopas was the brother of [St.] Joseph.

Eusebius relates in his Church History (Book II, ch. 1), James, "the brother of the Lord," was surnamed "the Just," and first to be made Bishop of Jerusalem. He added: "Paul also makes mention of the same James the Just, where he writes, 'Other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.'" (Gal. 1:19)

Eusebius relates in his Church History (Book II, ch. 23) the following: "But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives the most accurate account in the fifth book of his Memoirs. He writes as follows: 'James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called 'the Just' by all from the time of our Savior to the present day; for there were many that bore the name of 'James.''"

As preserved by Eusebius in Church History (Book II, ch. 1), Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD) relates in his Hypotyposes (Book VII) James the Just was chosen to be Bishop of Jerusalem and that there were only two apostle-Jameses: "But there were two Jameses: one called "the Just," who was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple and was beaten to death with a club by a fuller, and another who was beheaded." The former, James "the Just," a.k.a. James "the brother of the Lord," could have only been Apostle James of Alphaeus, because the latter was Apostle James of Zebedee, brother to Apostle John of Zebedee: "And at the same time, Herod the king stretched forth his hands, to afflict some of the church. And he killed James, the brother of John, with the sword." (Act. 12:1-2)

—
In summary, the names and verses from scripture, and the testimonies of early Church Fathers I cited, sourced, and linked together, are strong evidence to support "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the Less," "James the Just," "James the Bishop of Jerusalem," and "Apostle James of Alphaeus" were the same, and that he, Simon, Joseph, and Jude (Thaddeus) were sons of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), [St.] Joseph's brother, and Mary (the wife of Cleophas/Clopas), the sister-in-law of Jesus's Mother, Mary. Therefore, the meanings "stepbrother" and "half-brother" of the word "brother(s)" do not apply to Jesus in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 1:19, rather "kinsman," specifically cousins.

This disproves the teaching that states Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus) were Jesus's stepbrothers through [St.] Joseph, and undermines the teaching they were Jesus's half-siblings through His Mother, Mary.

†​

I keep getting an F (not even D-) in human genealogy.
I also believe that natural human genealogy is a shadow of the spiritual reality in relationships that exist.

Do genetics exist? Yes.
Do faith offspring exist? Yes.
Does a brother in the Lord have a genetic link to the other person? He might, but being a son of God has imagery in an abstract area ( love, joy, thirsting after God, etc.)

Is it just as complicated to track faith as it is to track family trees? I probably have D- in that

Anyway I do stand in awe of involved studies.
Welcome again, and we can discuss this more later.

eddif

 

[soul.]

I keep getting an F (not even D-) in human genealogy.
I also believe that natural human genealogy is a shadow of the spiritual reality in relationships that exist.

Do genetics exist? Yes.
Do faith offspring exist? Yes.
Does a brother in the Lord have a genetic link to the other person? He might, but being a son of God has imagery in an abstract area ( love, joy, thirsting after God, etc.)

Is it just as complicated to track faith as it is to track family trees? I probably have D- in that

Anyway I do stand in awe of involved studies.
Welcome again, and we can discuss this more later.

eddif

Do you believe Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus) were Jesus's half-brothers?

 

[eddif]

I just do not do genealogy. I do not even try.
It is endless and I generally function in the area of symbolism (which is endless too). Sorry

 

[soul.]

.

 

[soul.]

.

 

[eddif]

So, when you read in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 that Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus) are called Jesus's "brothers," do you believe that word was used symbolically?

In reading it over the years I thought they were physical genetic brothers. Flesh and blood relatives.

I just was more interested in the relationship of Jesus to God the Father. The relationship to the father was related to prophets prophecy, doing the will of the Father, overcoming his flesh, doing what he was called to do, understanding his suffering, knowing he would be abandoned, and many other things I have not yet see.
Being grafted into the vine and root consumed /consumes a lot of time. The spiritual connections are my only hope of salvation.
I could say more, but at this point my mind has not yet grasped everything fully.
Being accepted by saved Jew and gentile was important. Now I look forward to seeing answers face to face, and sharing what little I do see.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Or, do you mean that you are only interested in symbolism in Scripture, rather than its historical facts?

I guess I already answered this before I read this question.
Symbolism only exists if there are two factors:
The physical
The spiritual

Metaphysics is the greater thing beyond the physical. God as a spirit seems to have created physical things to show his existence. I can study just the physical or just the spiritual and miss the symbolism. Symbolism requires me not to deny either side.
In my life I have tried to just look at one side at a time. It will not work. I have to believe both sides.
Do Jewish persons exist? Yes. Are they the chosen genetic side of humanity? Yes. Have they denied the spiritual at times? Yes.
Do Gentiles exist? Yes. Were they separated from God? Yes. Do they want to deny the physical Jew / Hebrew? Yes
Jesus broke down the wall of the Law separating us. Do I totally understand all this? No. Am I seeking to know the fullness of it? Yes.
Are both sides sometimes fussing at me? Yes.
Was I called to this? It appears by the number of times I have been spoken over that it could be true. Am I in agony to get it done? Yes

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Andrew]

There are those who either teach Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus) were sons of [St.] Joseph from a marriage prior to his with the Virgin Mary, and thus Jesus's stepbrothers, or were Jesus's half-brothers through His Mother, merely because they are called His "brother(s):"

"...his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude" (Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3)
"...James the brother of the Lord" (Gal. 1:19)

However, the word "brother" (ἀδελφός [adelphos]) has a range of meanings, e.g., "brother," "half-brother," "stepbrother," "cousin," "uncle," "nephew," "fellow believer," "fellow countryman," etc. Is there evidence the meanings "stepbrother" or "half-brother" applies in the aforementioned verses? The answer lies in identifying who "James the brother of the Lord" was and in Gal. 1:19 it is indicated he was an apostle:

"But other of the apostles I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord" (Gal. 1:19)

Of the twelve apostles, two shared the name "James:"

Apostle James, son of Zebedee. (Matt. 4:21, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10)
Apostle James, son of Alphaeus. (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

Apostle James of Zebedee was not the son of [St.] Joseph, his only brother was Apostle John (Matt. 4:21, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10, Ac. 12:1-2), and his mother is referred to only as "the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 20:20;27:56), and thus it is unobjectionable this apostle-James and "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 1:19 were not the same:

Apostle James, son of Zebedee. (Matt. 4:21, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10)
Apostle James, son of Alphaeus. (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

Apostle James of Alphaeus was not the son of [St.] Joseph, but he was the brother of [Apostle] Jude (Thaddeus) and Joseph (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13), which corresponds with Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3: brothers Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus), and Jd. 1:1: Jude, brother of James, and thus it is unobjectionable this apostle-James and "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 1:19, were the same. Is there evidence linking Simon's, Joseph's, James's, and Jude's (Thaddeus) father, Alphaeus, and Jesus's Mother, Mary? No, but there is evidence the mother of the four "brothers" of Jesus was also named "Mary:"

Mary, mother of James. (Mk. 16:1)

Mary of James. (Lk. 24:10)

Mary, mother of James and Joseph. (Matt. 27:56)

Mary, mother of James the Less and Joseph. (Mk. 15:40)

—
Testimonies of Early Church Fathers

Apostolic Father Papias of Hierapolis (c. 60–130 AD), who was a disciple of Apostle John, relates in his Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord the following: "Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphaeus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph."

[St.] Jerome (c. 347–420 CE) relates in his De Viris Illustribus (Concerning Illustrious Men) and De perpetua uirginitate beatae Mariae adversus Heluidium (Against Helvidius, on the Perpetual Virginity of the Virgin Mary), "Mary the mother of James the Less" (Mk. 15:40), and "Mary the wife of Cleophas/Clopas" (Jn. 19:25), were the same.

Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 260–340 AD) relates in his Church History (Book III, ch. 11) it is said a man named "Clopas" had a son named "Symeon" (Simon), and that the latter was Jesus's cousin, for Hegesippus records Clopas was the brother of [St.] Joseph.

Eusebius relates in his Church History (Book II, ch. 1), James, "the brother of the Lord," was surnamed "the Just," and first to be made Bishop of Jerusalem. He added: "Paul also makes mention of the same James the Just, where he writes, 'Other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.'" (Gal. 1:19)

Eusebius relates in his Church History (Book II, ch. 23) the following: "But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives the most accurate account in the fifth book of his Memoirs. He writes as follows: 'James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called 'the Just' by all from the time of our Savior to the present day; for there were many that bore the name of 'James.''"

As preserved by Eusebius in Church History (Book II, ch. 1), Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD) relates in his Hypotyposes (Book VII) James the Just was chosen to be Bishop of Jerusalem and that there were only two apostle-Jameses: "But there were two Jameses: one called "the Just," who was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple and was beaten to death with a club by a fuller, and another who was beheaded." The former, James "the Just," a.k.a. James "the brother of the Lord," could have only been Apostle James of Alphaeus, because the latter was Apostle James of Zebedee, brother to Apostle John of Zebedee: "And at the same time, Herod the king stretched forth his hands, to afflict some of the church. And he killed James, the brother of John, with the sword." (Act. 12:1-2)

—
In summary, the names and verses from scripture, and the testimonies of early Church Fathers I cited, sourced, and linked together, are strong evidence to support "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the Less," "James the Just," "James the Bishop of Jerusalem," and "Apostle James of Alphaeus" were the same, and that he, Simon, Joseph, and Jude (Thaddeus) were sons of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), [St.] Joseph's brother, and Mary (the wife of Cleophas/Clopas), the sister-in-law of Jesus's Mother, Mary. Therefore, the meanings "stepbrother" and "half-brother" of the word "brother(s)" do not apply to Jesus in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 1:19, rather "kinsman," specifically cousins.

This disproves the teaching that states Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus) were Jesus's stepbrothers through [St.] Joseph, and undermines the teaching they were Jesus's half-siblings through His Mother, Mary.

†​

"Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS"
Matthew 1:24-25

A couple of things stand out for me in these verses that (in my opinion) strongly suggest Mary had other children after she had given birth to Jesus.

1. "(Joseph) knew her not until..."
To "know" your spouse in biblical terms always indicates marital 'intercourse', typically resulting in conception.

2. "Until" indicates when something will happen, begin or end. Till and Until mean the same thing.

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled"
Revelation 6:11

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads"
Revelation 7:3

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection"
Revelation 20:5


3. "...she had brought forth her firstborn son"
It's a bit odd to refer to an only child as your "firstborn" in my opinion, considering that this account was written post ascension

 

[Josiah]

1. "(Joseph) knew her not until..."
To "know" your spouse in biblical terms always indicates marital 'intercourse', typically resulting in conception.

1. As you know, the word "until" never appears in the Bible, only in some ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS of the Bible. The word didn't exist in biblical Hebrew or koine Greek. The verse you note uses the word "heos" ONLY looks backward, not forward. While the modern ENGLISH word often IMPLIES (but does not require) a change situation in the future, that implication does not exist in the word found in that verse. The meaning of that word in the verse is "up to that time, he knew her not" with NOTHING being required, stated, suggested or implied about after that time. You are IMPOSING an implication of a modern English word unto an ancient Greek word where such does not exist.

3. "...she had brought forth her firstborn son"

The prototokon had significance under Jewish, Greek and Roman law... this was a significant because it's the oldest male. But it made NO difference if there were other male children, when a boy is born where none preceded him, he was the prototokon - that special boy. The term makes no difference whether other sons were born, his status remains exactly the same, he is the prototokon whether there are no more sons born to her or 20 more sons born to her. What happened AFTER this boy's birth doesn't change his status as the prototokon. He is the prototokon at his birth because no boy preceded him, NOT beause others came after him.




.

 

[Andrew]

1. As you know, the word "until" never appears in the Bible, only in some ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS of the Bible. The word didn't exist in biblical Hebrew or koine Greek. The verse you note uses the word "heos" ONLY looks backward, not forward. While the modern ENGLISH word often IMPLIES (but does not require) a change situation in the future, that implication does not exist in the word found in that verse. The meaning of that word in the verse is "up to that time, he knew her not" with NOTHING being required, stated, suggested or implied about after that time. You are IMPOSING an implication of a modern English word unto an ancient Greek word where such does not exist.





The prototokon had significance under Jewish, Greek and Roman law... this was a significant because it's the oldest male. But it made NO difference if there were other male children, when a boy is born where none preceded him, he was the prototokon - that special boy. The term makes no difference whether other sons were born, his status remains exactly the same, he is the prototokon whether there are no more sons born to her or 20 more sons born to her. What happened AFTER this boy's birth doesn't change his status as the prototokon. He is the prototokon at his birth because no boy preceded him, NOT beause others came after him.




.

So... did he "know" her?

Im just asking questions, I don't think she had other children personally as I find it hard to believe she would have any desire to procreate after bearing the Son of God and all... I mean Jesus seemed to be a handful enough don't ya think?

 

[soul.]

.

 

[soul.]

So... did he "know" her?

A marriage comprised two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase, they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together.

[St.] Joseph and Mary completed the first phase, as well the second phase of the marriage by completing the contract regarding property and rights. However, they continued to not live together for at least a year, though they were still considered to be married, according to the Law. During this period, Mary lived in Her parent's house in Nazareth, often visited by relatives, friends, and [St.] Joseph.

It was not until Jesus was born that [St.] Joseph and Mary began to "know each other" as husband and wife by living together in the same household, each remaining chaste as a sacrifice to God (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I), and there is no law against chastity. (Gal. 5:23)

 

[Josiah]

So... did he "know" her?

The Bible doesn't say.

Tradition does.... the Bible does not.



MY personal, individual thoughts (which is about as close to worthless as is possible)....

1. IF Jesus had brothers from Mary, I would SUSPECT that would be a major issue (I'm thinking of Mohammad)

2. IF Mary had other children, I wonder why there is an universal affirmation that she did not? Ignatius, for example, is a disciple of St. John, to whom Jesus entrusted Mary and tradition says with whom she lived for the rest of her life, he says she remained a virgin. Seems to ME these people, who may well have known Mary or at least knew those who did, would be more likely to know this tidbit of irrelevant information MORE than some radical liberal Protestants in the early 1800's who were obsessed in denying the divinity of Jesus and thus the Virgin Birth of Jesus.

3. While I reject the idea of Tradition being norma normans, I don't dismiss it. IF I did, I'd be forced to reject Scripture since what we regard as such is from Tradition (the Bible contains on Table of Contents.... God never sent out a memo to all people in 33 AD with a list of which books ARE and AREN'T Scripture). This is one of the oldest and most universal Traditions in all of Christianity, much older and more universally upheld in the early church than say the Trinity. Now, does THAT make it a dogmatic fact? Not in my opinion, but I don't dismiss it simply because I don't like it.

4. It would matter if Mary had other children IF there was some controversy around that, if there was or is SOMEONE claiming some power or authority because of this common Mother. There isn't. There NEVER HAS BEEN. It's an irrelevant question. And I personally feel that how often some other couple HAS or DOESN'T have sex is.... well..... none of my ______ business. It DOES impact Mary and Joseph ONLY in this SINGULAR regard: The Messiah was to be born of a virgin (that's how Jews in Jesus' day understood the prophecy), and the Gospels are quite focused on reporting that Jesus fulfills the prophecy. But the prophecy (and the work of Jesus) does NOT depend on Mary remaining a virgin or not remaining a virgin, so this issue (normally none of our ________ business) IS an issue until Jesus is born but not afterward. Modern American "Evangelicals" seem almost obsessed with how often this couple had sex .... I just don't know WHY they care SOOOOOO much and are SOOOOOO determined that they had LOTSA sex. Sincerely. Catholics rarely bring it up. I realize the people who invented the theory that Mary had lotsa sex did so because they wanted to deny the Divinity of Jesus and the Virgin Birth (and because they considered the Bible to be myth) but why American Evangelicals (especially during the past 100 years or so) seem even more determined to insist Mary was so very sexual.... why, I just don't know. But it seems pretty weird to me.

I mean Jesus seemed to be a handful enough don't ya think?

Probably! But on the other hand, I can ASSURE you that having a son who "is a handful" doesn't keep people from having another. Our #2 is due in July.



Blessings!



- Josiah




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[Andrew]

Probably! But on the other hand, I can ASSURE you that having a son who "is a handful" doesn't keep people from having another. Our #2 is due in July.



Blessings!



- Josiah




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Congratulations!