What do you think about this Bible that says Daniel 8 and 11 prophesy about Maccabees?

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NathanH83

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Their meaning is self evident.

“So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.” (1 Maccabees 4:46).

“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.” (1 Maccabees 9:27).

“And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41).

Don’t you think you’re being dishonest by hiding from everyone the reason why you want to post the same 3 scripture verses over and over again, but not explain to everyone why you’re posting them?

How do these scripture verses speak to you? What is the point you are making by taking these 3 scripture verses, from 3 separate chapters, from 3 separate parts of the book? What’s your point in posting these verses?
Explain please.

If you don’t explain WHY you’re posting these, then you’re not being open and honest with this group.

What’s your point?
Why do you choose to be dishonest?
 

pinacled

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Origen

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Don’t you think you’re being dishonest by hiding from everyone the reason why you want to post the same 3 scripture verses over and over again, but not explain to everyone why you’re posting them?
No I don't.

It could not be more clear. The author meant what he said.

“So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.” (1 Maccabees 4:46).

“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.” (1 Maccabees 9:27).

“And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41).
 

NathanH83

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Joarib isn't listed though.
That's my point.

Same person.
Just like Joakim and Jehoiakim. They’re the same person.
Joiarib and Jehoiarib are the same person.

Besides, Mattathias specifically says that he’s a descendant of Phinehas. He’s the grandson of Aaron. So Jehoiarib isn’t the issue.

You’re obsessing over a non-issue.
 

NathanH83

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No I don't.

It could not be more clear. The author meant what he said.

“So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.” (1 Maccabees 4:46).

“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.” (1 Maccabees 9:27).

“And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41).

Well, it’s not clear to me what it is that you think is clear.

I’m asking you nicely to please clarify to me what it is that you think is so clear.

I don’t get your point. These are not 3 consecutive verses one after the other. These are from 3 separate chapters, of which you have not shared the context of any of them.

So, no, it’s not clear to me what point you’re making.

Please clarify.
What’s your point?
 

NathanH83

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No I don't.

It could not be more clear. The author meant what he said.

“So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.” (1 Maccabees 4:46).

“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.” (1 Maccabees 9:27).

“And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41).

What’s your point?
 

NathanH83

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No I don't.

It could not be more clear. The author meant what he said.

“So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.” (1 Maccabees 4:46).

“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.” (1 Maccabees 9:27).

“And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41).

What do you mean?
 

Origen

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So you think the book of Esther is the invention of heretics?
Another exaggerated and misleading comment made by you. Neither Athananius nor I said anything like that.

The early church councils contradicted Athananius’ false claim and declared Esther divine canonical scripture.
They had their view and Athananius had his.

Why are you quoting the false beliefs of a church father that the church councils disproved?
No one condemned Athananius for his view, not Rome, Hippo or Carthage.
 

Origen

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What’s your point?
I made it.

“So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.” (1 Maccabees 4:46).

“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.” (1 Maccabees 9:27).

“And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41).
 

NathanH83

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No I don't.

It could not be more clear. The author meant what he said.

“So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.” (1 Maccabees 4:46).

“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.” (1 Maccabees 9:27).

“And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41).

Are you saying that there were no prophets at that time?
So what does that mean?
No prophets, thus no scripture?
Was Ezra a prophet?
Was Nehemiah a prophet?

What’s your point?
 

Lamb

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Note: "not unworthy" = "worthy"


Preface to the First Book of Maccabees 1533


This is another book not to be found in the Hebrew Bible. Yet its words and speech adhere to the same style as the other books of sacred Scripture. This book would not have been unworthy of a place among them, because it is very necessary and helpful for an understanding of chapter 11 of the prophet Daniel. For the fulfilment of Daniel’s prophecy in that chapter, about the abomination and misfortune which was going to befall the people of Israel, is here described—namely, Antiochus Epiphanes—and in much the same way that Daniel [11:29–35] speaks of it: a little help and great persecution by the Gentiles and by false Jews, which is what took place at the time of the Maccabees. This is why the book is good for us Christians to read and to know.

In the first place, since Antiochus is regarded as a figure or image of the Antichrist who perpetrated the abomination and desolation of the worship of God in Jerusalem and in Judea not long before the birth and first coming of Christ, we learn from this to recognize the real Antichrist who is to devastate Christendom and destroy the worship of God [sometime] before the second and final coming of Christ. Therefore we should not be terrified when we experience such things and see them happening before our very eyes. Rather, be the chaos ever so great, and the devil as angry as he knows how, we should hold fast to this and take comfort in it, that we and all Christendom must nevertheless be sustained and finally saved.


For we too see the help, though small and slight, which God the Almighty has begun to grant us. The dear and holy gospel is the sword with which God’s own can nevertheless valiantly attack the Antichrist of our day and actually accomplish something—even though it cost much suffering and bloodshed—just as God aided his people with the sword of the Maccabees in that day. Although it did not happen without persecution and great heartache, they nevertheless cleansed the temple, restored the worship of God [4:36–61], and brought the people together again under their former government. Today, in this same way, the gospel is sweeping out idolatry—as Christ says, that his angels will purge out of his kingdom all causes of offense [Matt. 13:41]—and is bringing the real Christians together again into the old true Christian faith and unto genuine good works and worship of God.

In the second place we should take heart that God helped those people not only against Antiochus and the Gentiles but also against the traitorous and disloyal Jews who had gone over to the Gentiles and were helping to persecute, kill, and torment their own people and brethren. We should be sure of [God’s help] and remain unafraid even when false Christians and rabble-rousers—who have now become our betrayers—turn against us and plague and harm us as much as, if not more than, our Antiochus or Antichrist. For Daniel [11:32–34] has said it, and for our comfort proclaimed it, that things must happen this way; that the children of our people would deal treacherously with us and blithely help to persecute us. Therefore we shall not fare much better than those pious children of Israel did under their Antiochus or Antichrist, at the hands of their false brethren.

However those same enemies and traitors are amply punished by God at the end; their tyranny and treachery does not go undetected. So with a glad eye and good courage we may face our Antichrist, tyrants, and rabble-rousers, and endure their abuse, confident that they will not go on very long, much less bring matters to the point they intend, that instead (like Antiochus and those other traitors) they will soon be getting their due reward. Indeed a good deal of that punishment has already begun and is daily increasing. Hardened and blinded, though, they remain unmoved by all this. However that makes no difference to us: they will get it just as those others did. Since they do not want it any other way, may God the Almighty grant that it be done quickly and soon, that his name be hallowed, his kingdom advanced, and all saddened hearts, now held captive in the kingdom of the devil and of the Antichrist, be comforted. Amen.

Source: LW 35:350-351

No where does Luther call it inspired, divine or canon.

LW stands for Luther's Works. The 35 is for Volume 35. The pages are supposed to be 350-351 but the ones I know for Volume 35 only have 448 pages.
 

NathanH83

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I made it.

“So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.” (1 Maccabees 4:46).

“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.” (1 Maccabees 9:27).

“And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41).

Oh, you already made your point.
Hmmm… I missed it.

Can you please explain to me?
I’m not following your logic.
 

Origen

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Are you saying that there were no prophets at that time?
So what does that mean?
No prophets, thus no scripture?
Was Ezra a prophet?
Was Nehemiah a prophet?

What’s your point?
Again I made it.

“So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.” (1 Maccabees 4:46).

“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.” (1 Maccabees 9:27).

“And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41).
 

pinacled

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Same person.
Just like Joakim and Jehoiakim. They’re the same person.
Joiarib and Jehoiarib are the same person.

Besides, Mattathias specifically says that he’s a descendant of Phinehas. He’s the grandson of Aaron. So Jehoiarib isn’t the issue.

You’re obsessing over a non-issue.
The issue is the accuracy of the account.
Yes there was a rededication of the temple after a revolt.
But who led such in warfare could not of been a legitimate levite nor of priestly lineage.

To claim otherwise is mockery of The Allmighties Torah that forbids levites to engage in warfare.

The hammer was from the tribe of yhdh far as I can see.
Which is why the conquered forces occulted history with a false account in order to slander The Most High.

The usual form of propaganda wayfaring of those who hate God.

It's quite obvious who the author is for anyone who has read and knows Gods Law.

Blessed be the Holy One
 

Origen

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Hmmm… I missed it.
No doubt.

“So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.” (1 Maccabees 4:46).

“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.” (1 Maccabees 9:27).

“And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41).
 

NathanH83

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No where does Luther call it inspired, divine or canon.

LW stands for Luther's Works. The 35 is for Volume 35. The pages are supposed to be 350-351 but the ones I know for Volume 35 only have 448 pages.

Yes he does.


“This is another book not to be found in the Hebrew Bible. Yet its words and speech adhere to the same style as the other books of sacred Scripture. This book would not have been unworthy of a place among them, because it is very necessary and helpful for an understanding of chapter 11 of the prophet Daniel."
-Martin Luther

Look at what he says.
“Not unworthy to be place among them”
Among what?
Among sacred scripture.

Not unworthy means it IS worthy.

Worthy of what?
Worthy to be placed among sacred scripture.
 

Lamb

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Yes he does.


“This is another book not to be found in the Hebrew Bible. Yet its words and speech adhere to the same style as the other books of sacred Scripture. This book would not have been unworthy of a place among them, because it is very necessary and helpful for an understanding of chapter 11 of the prophet Daniel."
-Martin Luther

Look at what he says.
“Not unworthy to be place among them”
Among what?
Among sacred scripture.

Not unworthy means it IS worthy.

Worthy of what?
Worthy to be placed among sacred scripture.

He doesn't say what you're thinking he says. He does not say it's Canon. He does not say that it's inspired by God. He does not say that it's Divine.
 

NathanH83

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No doubt.

“So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.” (1 Maccabees 4:46).

“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.” (1 Maccabees 9:27).

“And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41).

So, you’re just going to leave me in the dark?
I’m asking for you to please help me out. I want to understand what you’re trying to communicate.
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say.

Are you saying that only prophecy is scripture?
 

NathanH83

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He doesn't say what you're thinking he says. He does not say it's Canon. He does not say that it's inspired by God. He does not say that it's Divine.

He says it’s worthy to be placed among sacred scripture. So yes, that’s exactly what he’s saying.

Besides, who cares what Martin Luther thinks anyway? I care about what the early church thought way back in the 300’s. And they clearly called it divine canonical scripture.

I’m not interested in obsessing over Martin Luther. He doesn’t represent the beliefs of the early church.
 

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So, you’re just going to leave me in the dark?
I’m asking for you to please help me out. I want to understand what you’re trying to communicate.
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say.

Are you saying that only prophecy is scripture?
It's probably better to PM Origen and ask him in private
 
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