Did Jesus celebrate the Holiday that commemorates the Maccabees?

[Andrew]

Prove it because the Jews today don't believe that yet they celebrate the holiday???

Seriously?

The Jews are unbelievers and unreliable.. yet we should trust what they say?

If a Hebrew hears and follows Jesus Christ accepting Him as their LORD and Savior then they accept The Father who sent Him and are of the children of God, if they don't accept Christ then they are sons of their father the devil. That's coming from Jesus himself!

The ONLY way the first Christians could attempt to persuade the Jews that Jesus IS the prophesied Messiah is with SCRIPTURE...
The scriptures they had are the same scriptures that were accepted into the church and into our Bibles.

@Origen Perhaps the council of Jamnia is not a valid argument and I have no proof to support a canon was established there, what we do have is the historical account of Aquila RETRANSLATING the Hebrew into Greek, did he believe he could translate it better than the 72 translators?
We have Jerome struggling with the proto Masoretic because it did not match up well with the LXX, he had to compensate and split the differences to appease both the learned Christians and the learned Rabbis... we have all of a sudden a "rejection" section, this too confirms Hebrew canon.

After one of Jesus' miracles in the NT the parents of the blind man who received sight coward and denied it was a miracle because they had heard of believers being shunned from the synagogues. The NT confirms that the unbelieving Jews were already prohibiting those who testify of Jesus who was baptized by the PROPHET John.

 

[Origen]

Origen Perhaps the council of Jamnia is not a valid argument and I have no proof to support a canon was established there

Thank you for admitting that. I respect that.

what we do have is the historical account of Aquila RETRANSLATING the Hebrew into Greek, did he believe he could translate it better than the 72 translators?

We do, but I have no evidence one way or the other what he believed on the matter. And unless you have some solid evidence, anything you claim will be pure speculation.

However I do know Aquila was not the only one. There were several translations\recensions of the LXX by both Jewish and Christian as well. In addition to Aquila there was Symmachus and Theodotion. And there were three Christian recensions identified by Jerome. They are Hesychius's used in Alexandria and Egypt, Lucian's used in around Constantinople and Antioch, and lastly Origen's spread by Eusebius and Pamphilus.

We have Jerome struggling with the proto Masoretic because it did not match up well with the LXX

Jerome never claims to be struggling with Hebrew text. He was well aware of the difference.

he had to compensate and split the differences to appease both the learned Christians and the learned Rabbis.

Unless you can provide the citations\evidence from Jerome HIMSELF to support that point, it will fair no better than your one concerning the canon. Can you provide citations from Jerome?

 

[Josiah]

A link and citation please

... to this definitive, authoritative Ruling Body of all Jews in the First Century.

And to this Body's official statement that one of the books with "Maccabees" in the name is inerrant, canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God. With the name of that body, the name and date of the pan-Jewish authoritative meeting.




.

 

[Josiah]

The Jews are unbelievers and unreliable.. yet we should trust what they say?

Yet the "proof" given was some unofficial WEBSITE of some JEWS (no link provided).

And there goes the apologetic given in this thread: The JEWS declared one of the Maccabee books to be Scripture therefore we should regard it as such.


Where is the proof that the JEWS (like my friend David) celebrate a holiday BECAUSE Judaism declared one of the Maccabee books to be canonical Scripture?




.

 

[pinacled]

... to this definitive, authoritative Ruling Body of all Jews in the First Century.

And to this Body's official statement that one of the books with "Maccabees" in the name is inerrant, canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God. With the name of that body, the name and date of the pan-Jewish authoritative meeting.




.

Where did you find that

 

[NathanH83]

Unless they provide primary sources to support your claims, I find no reason to accept their claims.

You stated:

Can you cite one source from before the time of Christ which states Maccabees is Scripture?

You also stated:

Can you provide manuscript evidence from before the time of Christ proving it was part of the original LXX or a source from before the time of Christ which states it was part of the original LXX?


I doubt you would simply accept something I said without evidence to support my point, and since I am thinking I find no reason to do the same. Either there is evidence from before the time of Christ to support your claims or there is not.

Can you provide any primary sources from before the time of Christ to support your claims?

Maccabees wasn’t authored by Christians. The Catholic church didn’t make it up. It was authored by Jews who lived before Christ, and it fulfills the prophecies in Daniel 8 and 11.

Why don’t YOU provide the evidence that Maccabees was written after the time of Christ, since that’s what you’re suggesting.

 

[Origen]

Maccabees wasn’t authored by Christians.

Never said it was.

The Catholic church didn’t make it up.

Never said it did.

It was authored by Jews who lived before Christ

Never said it wasn't.

Your turn!

Can you cite one source from before the time of Christ which states Maccabees is Scripture as you claimed?

Can you provide manuscript evidence from before the time of Christ proving it was part of the original LXX or a source from before the time of Christ which states it was part of the original LXX as you claimed?

Can you provide any primary sources from before the time of Christ to support your claims?

 

[NathanH83]

Never said it was.


Never said it did.


Never said it wasn't.

Your turn!

Can you cite one source from before the time of Christ which states Maccabees is Scripture as you claimed?

Can you provide manuscript evidence from before the time of Christ proving it was part of the original LXX or a source from before the time of Christ which states it was part of the original LXX as you claimed?

Can you provide any primary sources from before the time of Christ to support your claims?

Can you provide the historical evidence and proof that Maccabees was authored before the time of Christ? Or do you believe it was authored after Christ?

 

[NathanH83]

Never said it was.


Never said it did.


Never said it wasn't.

Your turn!

Can you cite one source from before the time of Christ which states Maccabees is Scripture as you claimed?

Can you provide manuscript evidence from before the time of Christ proving it was part of the original LXX or a source from before the time of Christ which states it was part of the original LXX as you claimed?

Can you provide any primary sources from before the time of Christ to support your claims?

Show me the evidence, primary sources, from before the time of Christ, where the Jews made the claim that Maccabees is “just history” and not “holy scripture.”

 

[pinacled]

Show me the evidence, primary sources, from before the time of Christ, where the Jews made the claim that Maccabees is “just history” and not “holy scripture.”

The burden of proof is yours sir Nathan.
You started the thread and have been refuted.

 

[pinacled]

Prove it because the Jews today don't believe that yet they celebrate the holiday???

Seriously?

The Jews are unbelievers and unreliable.. yet we should trust what they say?

If a Hebrew hears and follows Jesus Christ accepting Him as their LORD and Savior then they accept The Father who sent Him and are of the children of God, if they don't accept Christ then they are sons of their father the devil. That's coming from Jesus himself!

The ONLY way the first Christians could attempt to persuade the Jews that Jesus IS the prophesied Messiah is with SCRIPTURE...
The scriptures they had are the same scriptures that were accepted into the church and into our Bibles.

@Origen Perhaps the council of Jamnia is not a valid argument and I have no proof to support a canon was established there, what we do have is the historical account of Aquila RETRANSLATING the Hebrew into Greek, did he believe he could translate it better than the 72 translators?
We have Jerome struggling with the proto Masoretic because it did not match up well with the LXX, he had to compensate and split the differences to appease both the learned Christians and the learned Rabbis... we have all of a sudden a "rejection" section, this too confirms Hebrew canon.

After one of Jesus' miracles in the NT the parents of the blind man who received sight coward and denied it was a miracle because they had heard of believers being shunned from the synagogues. The NT confirms that the unbelieving Jews were already prohibiting those who testify of Jesus who was baptized by the PROPHET John.

Tanakh

The Tanakh (Hebrew:תַּנַ"ךְ; pronounced: /taˈnaχ/ or /təˈnax/; also Tenakh or Tenak) is a name used in Judaism for the canon of the Hebrew Bible ( known to Christians as the "Old Testament"). The Tanakh is also known as the Masoretic Text or the Miqra. The name "Tanakh" is a Hebrew acronym...

religion.wikia.org

Excerpt:
[ The Tanakh is also called Mikra (מקרא, meaning "reading" or "that which is read"). The three-part division reflected in the acronym "Tanakh" is well attested to in documents from the Second Temple period and in Rabbinic literature.]

 

[Origen]

Can you provide the historical evidence and proof that Maccabees was authored before the time of Christ? Or do you believe it was authored after Christ?

I made no claim whatsoever but you did. The burden of proof is in on you and you alone to support YOUR claims.

Can you cite one source from before the time of Christ which states Maccabees is Scripture as you claimed?

Can you provide manuscript evidence from before the time of Christ proving it was part of the original LXX or a source from before the time of Christ which states it was part of the original LXX as you claimed?

Can you provide any primary sources from before the time of Christ to support your claims?

 

[NathanH83]

I made no claim whatsoever but you did. The burden of proof in on you and you alone to support YOUR claims.

Can you cite one source from before the time of Christ which states Maccabees is Scripture as you claimed?

Can you provide manuscript evidence from before the time of Christ proving it was part of the original LXX or a source from before the time of Christ which states it was part of the original LXX as you claimed?

Can you provide any primary sources from before the time of Christ to support your claims?

So, let me get this straight. You believe that 1 Maccabees was authored by Jews before the time of Christ, but that they didn’t accept it as scripture. They just accepted it as “just history.”

And yet, the only sources you have are the testimonies of unbelieving Jews who lived after the time of Christ, like Flavius Josephus?

So, you expect me to provide primary sources before Christ, even though you cannot provide primary sources before Christ.

So you put a burden on me that you cannot lift yourself.

What it really comes down to is that I’m relying on the believing church fathers and councils from after the time of Christ, and you’re relying on the unbelieving Jews after the time of Christ.

I’m relying on believers, and you’re relying on unbelievers.

That’s ultimately what it comes down to.

But I have more than just church fathers. I have the author of the book of Hebrews who included the Maccabean martyrs in his “hall of faith” in Hebrews chapter 11. He included the men who were tortured as a part of Biblical history.

Daniel Prophesies about Maccabees.
Jesus celebrated the Maccabees.
The author of Hebrews included Maccabees in the “Hall of Faith.”
Church councils in the 300’s declared Maccabees to be holy scripture

Oh, but that’s just not “good enough” for it to be included because.... well unbelieving Jews said so.

It all comes down to the fact that you place your faith in unbelievers.

 

[Origen]

So, let me get this straight.

The only thing to get straight is whether you are able to support your claims.

Let's remind everyone what you claimed. You stated:

The Jews who lived before the time of Christ accepted Maccabees as scripture.

That’s why they included it in the Greek Septuagint.

Can you cite one source from before the time of Christ which states Maccabees is Scripture as you claimed?

Can you provide manuscript evidence from before the time of Christ proving it was part of the original LXX or a source from before the time of Christ which states it was part of the original LXX as you claimed?

 

[pinacled]

Picture taken from John 10:22 in the original 1611 King James.
The Feast of Dedication is the Feast of Hanukkah, as shown in this marginal note.

Jesus celebrated the Maccabees?

But they told me that the New Testament never acknowledges the Apocrypha.

???????

Yeshua absolutely did not celebrate a feast of dedication.
To claim otherwise is anti Torah(lawlessness)
There are only 3 High Holy yammin that are celebrated by the Holy One(s) of yisrayl.

Daniel
[ And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.]
A change of "times and laws" being sorcerers lie about history.

Acts 8
[ But there was a man named Shim‘on in the city who for some time had been practicing magic and astonishing the nation of Shomron, claiming to be somebody great. 10 Everyone gave heed to him, from the lowest to the highest, saying, “This man is the power of God called ‘The Great Power’.” 11 They followed him because for a considerable time he had amazed them with his magic.]
Magic" in this context is deceiving others to worship on a mountain in samaria.

John 4

 

[NathanH83]

The only thing to get straight is whether you are able to support your claims.

Let's remind everyone what you claimed. You stated:


Can you cite one source from before the time of Christ which states Maccabees is Scripture as you claimed?

Can you provide manuscript evidence from before the time of Christ proving it was part of the original LXX or a source from before the time of Christ which states it was part of the original LXX as you claimed?

Hebrews 11:35 is the closest I got. But that’s slightly after Christ.

I already told you that I don’t have any sources before Christ. And neither do you. I believe the early church (believers) and you believe the Jews (unbelievers).

You don’t have any primary sources from before the time of Christ, where a Jewish person claimed that Maccabees is “just history” and not holy scripture. All you have is Josephus, an unbelieving Jew from after the time of Christ.

But the early church councils declared Maccabees to be scripture. The only logical explanation is that these early Christians accepted Maccabees because the disciples told them so. And the only reason why they would tell them that is if the Jews who lived before the time of Christ accepted it as scripture.

Therefore, logically, the Jews who lived before Christ must have accepted Maccabees as scripture. And you don’t have any proof to the contrary.

 

[pinacled]

Hebrews 11:35 is the closest I got. But that’s slightly after Christ.

I already told you that I don’t have any sources before Christ. And neither do you. I believe the early church (believers) and you believe the Jews (unbelievers).

You don’t have any primary sources from before the time of Christ, where a Jewish person claimed that Maccabees is “just history” and not holy scripture. All you have is Josephus, an unbelieving Jew from after the time of Christ.

But the early church councils declared Maccabees to be scripture. The only logical explanation is that these early Christians accepted Maccabees because the disciples told them so. And the only reason why they would tell them that is if the Jews who lived before the time of Christ accepted it as scripture.

Therefore, logically, the Jews who lived before Christ must have accepted Maccabees as scripture. And you don’t have any proof to the contrary.

Battle of the Ascent of Lebonah - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[pinacled]

Yeshua absolutely did not celebrate a feast of dedication.
To claim otherwise is anti Torah(lawlessness)
There are only 3 High Holy yammin that are celebrated by the Holy One(s) of yisrayl.

Daniel
[ And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.]
A change of "times and laws" being sorcerers lie about history.

Acts 8
[ But there was a man named Shim‘on in the city who for some time had been practicing magic and astonishing the nation of Shomron, claiming to be somebody great. 10 Everyone gave heed to him, from the lowest to the highest, saying, “This man is the power of God called ‘The Great Power’.” 11 They followed him because for a considerable time he had amazed them with his magic.]
Magic" in this context is deceiving others to worship on a mountain in samaria.

John 4

Battle of the Ascent of Lebonah - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Excerpt:
[ After the Maccabean Revolt started, Judah relocated his guerrilla combat units at the northern part of Samaria. Apollonius was sent with the local Samarian armies to link up with Seleucid forces from Jerusalem.

Maccabaee gained the element of surprise by ambushing the enemy army at Wadi Haramia and successfully destroyed the much larger Syrian Greek army, personally killing its commander.[2][3] Another force was soon sent against Maccabaee, which led to the Bat yutle of Beth Horon.]

"northern part of Samaria" where sorcerers worship a lie

John 4
[ The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.]

 

[pinacled]

Are you seeking a sword young sir nathan

 

[Origen]

I already told you that I don’t have any sources before Christ. And neither do you.

I never made any claims. Your point is irrelevant.

You don’t have any primary sources from before the time of Christ, where a Jewish person claimed that Maccabees is “just history” and not holy scripture.

Since I never said there was, your point is irrelevant.

All you have is Josephus, an unbelieving Jew from after the time of Christ.

I never brought up Josephus here.

But the early church councils declared Maccabees to be scripture.

Which changed nothing because others church fathers did not agree and the debate continued.

The only logical explanation is that these early Christians accepted Maccabees because the disciples told them so.

Absolutely zero evidence for such a claim. It is nothing more than pure speculation and wishful thinking.

Therefore, logically, the Jews who lived before Christ must have accepted Maccabees as scripture. And you don’t have any proof to the contrary.

Just as you had no evidence for your previous claims, you have no evidence for this claim and you have no evidence for your claim concerning the disciples.