Who entertained angels unaware, as stated in Hebrews 13:2?

[NathanH83]

Abraham entertained angels, but he knew they were angels. He bowed down to them and said, “Lord.”

Lot entertained angels. But he knew they were angels. He bowed down to them the moment they set foot in Sodom.

There’s nothing in the Old Testament or New Testament that has people entertaining angels unaware.

But that’s exactly what we find in the book of Tobit.

The angel Raphael was given food and a place to sleep. But they didn’t know he was an angel. They thought he was a distant relative. They called him “brother Azariah.”

Tobit seems to be the only thing that fits.

Is Hebrews 13:2 referencing Tobit?

 

[Andrew]

It can't be Tobit because neither modern Judaism or Protestantism accepts Tobit as scripture therefore go put on your dunce hat and sit in the corner with the Catholics and the Eastern Orthodoxy

 

[Josiah]

1. Hebrews 13:2 doesn't say. It's that simple. Sometimes the obvious is, well, obvious.

2. In Genesis 18, it nowhere says Abraham knew they were angels...or even that they were such. And Hebrews doesn't say it was Abraham, it doesn't name ANYONE. Obviously.




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[Andrew]

1. Hebrews 13:2 doesn't say. It's that simple. Sometimes the obvious is, well, obvious.

2. In Genesis 18, it nowhere says Abraham knew they were angels...or even that they were such. And Hebrews doesn't say it was Abraham, it doesn't name ANYONE. Obviously.




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What's the obvious to you? It doesn't say therefore its a huge mystery that can never be solved even if the answer is found in the canon?

 

[Josiah]

What's the obvious to you? It doesn't say therefore its a huge mystery that can never be solved even if the answer is found in the canon?

What's obvious is that Hebrews doesn't say .... it doesn't list the name(s) of any person(s) who did so. That's it. I think we can close this thread now.



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[NathanH83]

It can't be Tobit because neither modern Judaism or Protestantism accepts Tobit as scripture therefore go put on your dunce hat and sit in the corner with the Catholics and the Eastern Orthodoxy

Oh ok. That makes perfect sense. I’ll go sit in a corner now and stop using my brain.
Thanks.

 

[NathanH83]

Anybody got a dunce hat I can borrow?

 

[Andrew]

Anybody got a dunce hat I can borrow?

.

 

[pinacled]

Sarah?

 

[NathanH83]

What's obvious is that Hebrews doesn't say .... it doesn't list the name(s) of any person(s) who did so. That's it. I think we can close this thread now.



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The fact that the author of Hebrews didn’t say is even further evidence.

It proves that the author of Hebrews, while addressing his Hebrew-speaking Jewish audience, assumed that his language was clear and obvious enough for them to have known what he was referencing when he said that some have entertained angels unaware. The author of Hebrews knew what he was talking about, and trusted that his audience knew what he was talking about too.

And given the fact that there were multiple Hebrew and Aramaic copies of Tobit found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, we can also know that the Jews would certainly have made the connection with the story of Tobit, and the visit from the angel Raphael. There is no other logical conclusion.

If the Jews were unfamiliar with the story of Tobit, and the author of Hebrews wanted to reference it, he would have to reference Tobit by name specifically in order to clarify to them that he’s referencing a story they’re unfamiliar with. But since he didn’t specify, that proves that they WERE familiar with it.

And since the author of Hebrews clearly and undeniably referenced 2 Maccabees only 2 chapters earlier in Hebrews 11:35, then it’s no big stretch of the imagination that this author would also reference the book of Tobit.

Ah, it’s all coming together now!

 

[Andrew]

Bazinga!

 

[Andrew]

Sarah?

Could be Abraham and Sarah but for Paul to refer to the "Father of many nations" and his wife as "some people" is highly unlikely since earlier in Hebrews Paul calls them both by name along with their acts attributed to faithfulness.. although I believe they are respectfully included in the "some" -it wasn't just them, and no other individuals in the OT fit the bill, (depending of course on what OT canon you use)

The sodomites weren't hospitable nor would they care if they were angels or men so that's a big no

Mary obviously wouldn't blindly believe some random stranger coming up to her like
"hey there, so umm no joke.. you are going to give birth to Gods only Son while remaining a virgin and you will name him Jesus, he will be the Messiah too so be extra careful -oh and also God says for you to marry Joseph, got it? alright cool, peace im out"
(not saying that's what Gabriel said but that's what it would sound like to her coming from some random dude she never met before)

 

[Lamb]

Look at Judges 6. Gideon's initial encounter with an angel was one of not knowing who he was and it wasn't until later that he realized. So yes, some people have entertained angels unaware even though they might have discovered it later.

 

[Andrew]

Look at Judges 6. Gideon's initial encounter with an angel was one of not knowing who he was and it wasn't until later that he realized. So yes, some people have entertained angels unaware even though they might have discovered it later.

Well I can't argue with this one.
So an angel of the Lord are like host for the LORD to communicate through and perform miracles, I noticed Gideon calls him Lord, but the then the narration uses LORD when referring to the angel..
Raphael performed miracles as well, even expelled a demon using fish guts, I see similarity in these two angels how they request favors from Gods people and in return are rewarded, I believe the case of Gideons angel and that of Raphael (for the sake of argument let us include him) that this is precisely what Paul is preaching about, charity is a gift from God that keeps on giving.. and not for self gratitude but because it's pleasing to the Lord.

 

[NathanH83]

Look at Judges 6. Gideon's initial encounter with an angel was one of not knowing who he was and it wasn't until later that he realized. So yes, some people have entertained angels unaware even though they might have discovered it later.

Gideon knew it was an angel the whole time. He just had some doubts, and so asked for a sign. When the angel performed the sign, then he knew for sure it was an angel. Besides, he didn’t entertain him either.

Nice try, but no cigar.

 

[Lamb]

Gideon knew it was an angel the whole time. He just had some doubts, and so asked for a sign. When the angel performed the sign, then he knew for sure it was an angel. Besides, he didn’t entertain him either.

Nice try, but no cigar.

Knew or wondered? Nice try for you but you can't prove that he "knew".

 

[Lamb]

Well I can't argue with this one.
So an angel of the Lord are like host for the LORD to communicate through and perform miracles, I noticed Gideon calls him Lord, but the then the narration uses LORD when referring to the angel..
Raphael performed miracles as well, even expelled a demon using fish guts, I see similarity in these two angels how they request favors from Gods people and in return are rewarded, I believe the case of Gideons angel and that of Raphael (for the sake of argument let us include him) that this is precisely what Paul is preaching about, charity is a gift from God that keeps on giving.. and not for self gratitude but because it's pleasing to the Lord.

Lord is a title.

 

[Andrew]

Lord is a title.

The King James uses "Lord" when quoting Gideon speaking to the angel, the narration uses "LORD" for the angel.

 

[Origen]

The King James uses "Lord" when quoting Gideon speaking to the angel, the narration uses "LORD" for the angel.

That is not correct. Gideon addresses the angel at first as "Lord" (v. 13), not LORD.

And Gideon said to him, “Please, my lord (i.e. אָדוֹן = Lord), if the LORD is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all his wonderful deeds that our fathers recounted to us, saying, ‘Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt?’ But now the LORD has forsaken us and given us into the hand of Midian.”

Then Gideon does the same thing again in verse 15.

And he said [i.e. Gideon] to him, “Please, Lord (i.e. אָדוֹן = Lord), how can I save Israel? Behold, my clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father’s house.”

 

[NathanH83]

Knew or wondered? Nice try for you but you can't prove that he "knew".

He wasn’t entertaining an angel unaware. It doesn’t fit.