JOHN 7:1 JESUS HAD BROTHERS

[Josiah]

How then are you and others in this thread able to communicate beside english king josiah?

I already asked you to show the greek defintion concerning marriage which you ignored

I showed you with Scripture that the terms in First Century Hebrew culture CANNOT mean marriage in the sense of consummated, "one-flesh" unless you agree with the radical liberals you parrot who denied the Virgin Birth. The terms simply were interchangeable with "betrothed." Three times in all the Bible the terms are applied to Joseph or Mary all in Matthew chapter one when Mary was a VIRGIN, thus no consummation, no marriage in the usual, full sense and Matthew chapter one ALSO refers to them as "betrothed." The terms do not mean what you insist unless you deny the Virgin Birth and Scripture. Once again, you are ignoring the context, looking in isolation at English words in your English tome and appointing yourself to personally feel something is IMPLIED - even though that clearly contradicts Scripture and ecumenical ancient Tradition.

Repetition has no authority over The Torah.

Just quote where the Torah states the following:

"Mary and Joseph consummated their relationship and were one-flesh"

"Mary had other children besides Jesus."

"If a couple is engaged, there is a Divine Mandate that they MUST consummate that and be married."

When you find those Scriptures, list them.

asked a specific question about dinah and shechem and you declined

Your attempt to deflect and derail is noted.... Neither of these are Mary or Joseph or claimed to be children of Mary, so your attempt to derail the discussion (at many sites, a rule violation) is not embraced. If you could show that actually these are other names for Mary and Joseph or that it is claimed they are children of Mary, then present that. Otherwise, it's yet ANOTHER (still another) attempt of yours to deflect and derail.





I'll ask again..... quote the verses that state

"Mary and Joseph consummated their relationship and were married."

"Mary had other children."





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[pinacled]

I showed you with Scripture that the terms in First Century Hebrew culture CANNOT mean marriage in the sense of consummated, "one-flesh" unless you agree with the radical liberals you parrot who denied the Virgin Birth. The terms simply were interchangeable with "betrothed." Three times in all the Bible the terms are applied to Joseph or Mary all in Matthew chapter one when Mary was a VIRGIN, thus no consummation, no marriage in the usual, full sense and Matthew chapter one ALSO refers to them as "betrothed." The terms do not mean what you insist unless you deny the Virgin Birth and Scripture. Once again, you are ignoring the context, looking in isolation at English words in your English tome and appointing yourself to personally feel something is IMPLIED - even though that clearly contradicts Scripture and ecumenical ancient Tradition.






Just quote where the Torah states the following:

"Mary and Joseph consummated their relationship and were one-flesh"

"Mary had other children besides Jesus."

"If a couple is engaged, there is a Divine Mandate that they MUST consummate that and be married."

When you find those Scriptures, list them.






Your attempt to deflect and derail is noted.... Neither of these are Mary or Joseph or claimed to be children of Mary, so your attempt to derail the discussion (at many sites, a rule violation) is not embraced. If you could show that actually these are other names for Mary and Joseph or that it is claimed they are children of Mary, then present that. Otherwise, it's yet ANOTHER (still another) attempt of yours to deflect and derail.





I'll ask again..... quote the verses that state

"Mary and Joseph consummated their relationship and were married."

"Mary had other children."





.

Matthew 13:55
[ “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?]

 

[pinacled]

I showed you with Scripture that the terms in First Century Hebrew culture CANNOT mean marriage in the sense of consummated, "one-flesh" unless you agree with the radical liberals you parrot who denied the Virgin Birth. The terms simply were interchangeable with "betrothed." Three times in all the Bible the terms are applied to Joseph or Mary all in Matthew chapter one when Mary was a VIRGIN, thus no consummation, no marriage in the usual, full sense and Matthew chapter one ALSO refers to them as "betrothed." The terms do not mean what you insist unless you deny the Virgin Birth and Scripture. Once again, you are ignoring the context, looking in isolation at English words in your English tome and appointing yourself to personally feel something is IMPLIED - even though that clearly contradicts Scripture and ecumenical ancient Tradition.






Just quote where the Torah states the following:

"Mary and Joseph consummated their relationship and were one-flesh"

"Mary had other children besides Jesus."

"If a couple is engaged, there is a Divine Mandate that they MUST consummate that and be married."

When you find those Scriptures, list them.






Your attempt to deflect and derail is noted.... Neither of these are Mary or Joseph or claimed to be children of Mary, so your attempt to derail the discussion (at many sites, a rule violation) is not embraced. If you could show that actually these are other names for Mary and Joseph or that it is claimed they are children of Mary, then present that. Otherwise, it's yet ANOTHER (still another) attempt of yours to deflect and derail.





I'll ask again..... quote the verses that state

"Mary and Joseph consummated their relationship and were married."

"Mary had other children."





.

Virgin conception is The message of Truth.
Nowhere is virgin birth mentioned.
2 john 1:7

In fulfillment of Torah The first to break the matrix is The LORDs.
שְׁמוֹת
Shemot(Exodus 13
בְּמִדְבַּר
Bamidbar(Numbers 18

Blessed be The Holy One

 

[pinacled]

I showed you with Scripture that the terms in First Century Hebrew culture CANNOT mean marriage in the sense of consummated, "one-flesh" unless you agree with the radical liberals you parrot who denied the Virgin Birth. The terms simply were interchangeable with "betrothed." Three times in all the Bible the terms are applied to Joseph or Mary all in Matthew chapter one when Mary was a VIRGIN, thus no consummation, no marriage in the usual, full sense and Matthew chapter one ALSO refers to them as "betrothed." The terms do not mean what you insist unless you deny the Virgin Birth and Scripture. Once again, you are ignoring the context, looking in isolation at English words in your English tome and appointing yourself to personally feel something is IMPLIED - even though that clearly contradicts Scripture and ecumenical ancient Tradition.






Just quote where the Torah states the following:

"Mary and Joseph consummated their relationship and were one-flesh"

"Mary had other children besides Jesus."

"If a couple is engaged, there is a Divine Mandate that they MUST consummate that and be married."

When you find those Scriptures, list them.






Your attempt to deflect and derail is noted.... Neither of these are Mary or Joseph or claimed to be children of Mary, so your attempt to derail the discussion (at many sites, a rule violation) is not embraced. If you could show that actually these are other names for Mary and Joseph or that it is claimed they are children of Mary, then present that. Otherwise, it's yet ANOTHER (still another) attempt of yours to deflect and derail.





I'll ask again..... quote the verses that state

"Mary and Joseph consummated their relationship and were married."

"Mary had other children."





.

Do you deny The Lord was born in Flesh?
Yes, or No

 

[Josiah]

Do you deny The Lord was born in Flesh?
Yes, or No

This is yet another, still another, bold desperate attempt to derail and deflect. It has NOTHING, absolutely nothing whatsoever, to do with the discussion, topic, thread or anything I posted here.


I'm waiting for the Scriptures that state:

"Mary and Joseph got married."

"Mary had other children."

And your claim that the Torah specifically MANDATES that all engaged couples MUST consummate that and be married.... I'll ask again, yet again, where does it state that?

Matthew 13:55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?

Yup, it says Jesus was the mother of JESUS. Where does it state that Mary is the mother of James, Joseph, Simon and Judas; where (pray tell) does it state that? Just embolden the words "Mary is THEIR mother." That would help. Otherwise, this is confirming that Mary is the mother of JESUS. It says NOTHING about Mary and these other persons. Nothing.

And of course, the word for "brother" here does not mean "shares the same mother." It was a very, very broad and loose term that USUALLY does not indicate ANY biological connection at ALL; friend, you and I are brothers. Ancient Tradition from the Second Century says these were step brothers of Jesus, if so, the ONLY WORD AVAILABLE in koine Greek for them would be "brother" since there was no word for step-brother in koine Greek. In any case, this verse does not say Mary is the mother of anyone except Jesus, only he is mentioned as her son.

It doesn't help to find a verse that says Mary is JESUS' mother. No one in this thread has remotely suggested otherwise. But you claim she had OTHER children. Where is the verse that states that? We all know universal, ancient, historic Tradition says she had no other children... and it was some radical liberals some 200 years ago that invented the theory you parrot because they denied the Virgil Birth and inerrancy of Scripture, so you are rejecting Tradition (and Tradition determined what is and is not Scripture) but where is the verse that says "Mary had other children." We're waiting for that verse.





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[pinacled]

Is the Perpetual Virginity of Mary a Biblical View?

Bodie Hodge, AiG–US, examines a teaching which has been held by Catholics and many Protestants.

answersingenesis.org

Excerpt:
[ In fact, sex within marriage is not a sin but is a creation ordinance within marriage that existed prior to sin and the Curse. Jesus quoted Genesis 2:24 in Matthew 19:5–6, reiterating “the two shall be one flesh.”

Consider that God commanded people to be fruitful and multiply in Genesis 1:28 and twice in Genesis 9 (verses 1 and 7). Malachi 2:14–15 indicates one reason for marriage is to have godly offspring. Why would Mary be disobedient to God? Since she was truly a godly woman, she would have respected His commands and honor them.]

 

[Lamb]

Is the Perpetual Virginity of Mary a Biblical View?

Bodie Hodge, AiG–US, examines a teaching which has been held by Catholics and many Protestants.

answersingenesis.org

Excerpt:
[ In fact, sex within marriage is not a sin but is a creation ordinance within marriage that existed prior to sin and the Curse. Jesus quoted Genesis 2:24 in Matthew 19:5–6, reiterating “the two shall be one flesh.”

Consider that God commanded people to be fruitful and multiply in Genesis 1:28 and twice in Genesis 9 (verses 1 and 7). Malachi 2:14–15 indicates one reason for marriage is to have godly offspring. Why would Mary be disobedient to God? Since she was truly a godly woman, she would have respected His commands and honor them.]

Mary gave birth...so she was not disobedient to God.

Joseph's quiver from the Old Testament was 2 sons...was he disobedient to God as well? No.

 

[JRT]

At least two of his brothers were important figures in the early church. James led the Jerusalem Church in the decades following the crucifixion. This church eventually became known as the Ebonite Church and the first 15 bishops all claimed a blood relationship with the family of Jesus. It was eventually persecuted to extinction by the largely Gentile Pauline Church. Judas, aka. Jude wrote an epistle now in the canon.

 

[pinacled]

Mary gave birth...so she was not disobedient to God.

Joseph's quiver from the Old Testament was 2 sons...was he disobedient to God as well? No.

My intent was to bring a second witness to refute Josiah's claim that consummation is not an ordinance in The Torah(Law of The most High.

 

[Josiah]

My intent was to bring a second witness to refute Josiah's claim that consummation is not an ordinance in The Torah(Law of The most High.

We are still waiting for you to quote the Torah where it states, "All engaged couples are divinely mandated to consummate that and be fully married." When you find that mandate in t he Torah, please quote it.


And we are still waiting for the Scriptures that state:

"Mary and Joseph got married."

"Mary gave birth to other children."



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[pinacled]

Mary gave birth...so she was not disobedient to God.

Joseph's quiver from the Old Testament was 2 sons...was he disobedient to God as well? No.

Excellent choice of word.
Think on a full quiver and the uses of an arrow to a bow.
Are the children an instrument of war, or are they a joyous instrument and song of honor regardless of flesh.?
Adopted or not a parent knows The accenting Love in prayer.
Proverbs 22:6
"Raise up your children in the way"

Luke 2:52
Matthew 19:14

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

Mary gave birth...so she was not disobedient to God.

Joseph's quiver from the Old Testament was 2 sons...was he disobedient to God as well? No.

yet who was the quiver to spiritual children?

 

[pinacled]

Mary gave birth...so she was not disobedient to God.

Joseph's quiver from the Old Testament was 2 sons...was he disobedient to God as well? No.

Ephesians 2:12

count the blessings given since havel to zechariah
With a quiver at heart what would you say?

Would you honor mother and father of each generation where love is a three cord strength.

or would you empass for worldly favor?

 

[atpollard]

"Mary and Joseph consummated their relationship and were married."

Matthew 1:24-25 [NASB]
24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took [Mary] as his wife, 25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

• “took [Mary] as his wife” = “were married”
• “kept her a virgin until she gave birth” = “consummated their relationship”

 

[Josiah]

Matthew 1:24-25 [NASB]
24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took [Mary] as his wife, 25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

• “took [Mary] as his wife” = “were married”
• “kept her a virgin until she gave birth” = “consummated their relationship”

No.

As proven, "wife" does not mean "consummated relationship" unless you deny the Virgin Birth of our Lord and the Hebrew language.

The word "until" in modern ENGLISH may - may, may- IMPLY a changed situation afterward. The problem you have is that no one in the First Century spoke or wrote in modern English. The koine Greek word here in no way whatsoever means or suggests or implies a changed situation. The word only means "at that point" not "then after that the opposite was true."


Where is the verse that states, "Joseph and Mary consummated the relationship." Just quote the verse.

Where is the verse that states, "Mary had other children besides Jesus." Just quote the verse.


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[pinacled]

No.

As proven, "wife" does not mean "consummated relationship" unless you deny the Virgin Birth of our Lord and the Hebrew language.

The word "until" in modern ENGLISH may - may, may- IMPLY a changed situation afterward. The problem you have is that no one in the First Century spoke or wrote in modern English. The koine Greek word here in no way whatsoever means or suggests or implies a changed situation. The word only means "at that point" not "then after that the opposite was true."


Where is the verse that states, "Joseph and Mary consummated the relationship." Just quote the verse.

Where is the verse that states, "Mary had other children besides Jesus." Just quote the verse.


.

I know the hebrew language...

Do you?

 

[Josiah]

I know the hebrew language...

Matthew was written in koine Greek, not Hebrew....

Your claim that the word for "wife" IN HEBREW must and only mean "has been consummated." Okay.... I guess you are qualified to prove that (although you've made zero attempt to do so), but of course, Matthew exists in koine Greek, not Hebrew so I think your point is irrelevant even if true. The word is in GREEK, not Hebrew.


Again... In Matthew, chapter one, the terms "husband" and "wife" are used - along with the term "betrothed" (roughly, "engaged"). And all of these times was BEFORE Jesus was born and when there was NO consummation, NO sexual relations and thus NOT a full marriage, not consummated. Obviously, undeniably, the word "wife" does NOT indicate consummation, it does NOT indicate they were "one flesh", it does NOT say they were married in that sense (unless you hold the Bible errs and you deny the Virgin Birth of Our Lord). Thus, pointing out the word "wife" in your modern English translation (or insisting you know what some Hebrew word not used means) does not prove they consummated their marriage. The word "wife" cannot mean "have had sex," "been consummated" or Matthew is lying and the Virgin Birth is a lie.

And again, the angel gave PERMISSION for Joseph to do something, the angel commanded nothing and the text does NOT say Joseph did what the angel permitted. If I said, "Don't be afraid to get a Ph.D." would not prove ergo you have a Ph.D. What an absurd assumption.




I'll ask again:

Where is the verse that states they got married (ie, sex.... consummation.... "one flesh")?

Where is the verse that states Mary had other children?

In all these pages, you refuse to answer this.



We know what Tradition says..... we know that about 200 years ago, some very radical liberals who denied the truthfulness of Scripture, the Virgin Birth and taught that Christianity if "full of myths" invented your theory. But the Bible is SILENT. Yes, the words "husband" and "wife" are used 3 times (all when Mary and Joseph had consummated NOTHING) but the words were simply interchangable with "betrothed" and does NOT mean marriage in the full sense. And yes, "brother" CAN mean have the same mother - but it actually rarely means that in the koine Greek, MOST of the time the word did not refer to persons to shared ANY biological parent (you and I are brothers). You are pumping a LOT into ENGLISH words in an ENGLISH translation as "IMPLIED" to a modern English reader. But it's not in the text. The Bible doesn't say what you do. Tradition doesn't either/




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[Andrew]

If they "knew" each other than it means conceived together

 

[Josiah]

If they "knew" each other than it means conceived together

True. But the Bible does not say they "knew" each other after Jesus was born, only that they did NOT before He was born (the meaning of the Greek word "until" which ONLY looks backward, not forward as the English word MAY do). And of course, even if there was a verse that stated "Mary and Joseph knew each other after Jesus was born" that would not substantiate that ergo Mary had other children unless you could prove from biology that those who "know" each other MUST therefore have other children.


Where is the verse: "Mary had other children?" The Bible lists ONE (and only, exclusively, solely ONE, just ONE) child of Mary, and His name is Jesus. It lists 4 males and an unknown number of women as siblings but the words used are VERY general and USUALLY do not mean "share the same mother" or even "biologically related." You and I are brothers, Andrew.



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[atpollard]

No.

As proven, "wife" does not mean "consummated relationship" unless you deny the Virgin Birth of our Lord and the Hebrew language.

The word "until" in modern ENGLISH may - may, may- IMPLY a changed situation afterward. The problem you have is that no one in the First Century spoke or wrote in modern English. The koine Greek word here in no way whatsoever means or suggests or implies a changed situation. The word only means "at that point" not "then after that the opposite was true."


Where is the verse that states, "Joseph and Mary consummated the relationship." Just quote the verse.

Where is the verse that states, "Mary had other children besides Jesus." Just quote the verse.


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So “married” doesn’t really mean married, and “wife” doesn’t really mean wife and “until” doesn’t really mean until, and “brothers” doesn’t really mean brothers. Got it.

Just how sure are we that “forgiven” really means forgiven and “resurrected” really means resurrected?
This Greek language is a lot trickier than I care to trust something this important to.