Why doesn’t the book of Tobit meet the criteria for being included in the Bible?

[pinacled]

Leviticus is nothing if not specific.
Does Leviticus COMMAND the burning of fish guts? (No.)
Does Leviticus COMMAND the burning of other organs? (Yes.)
Does Leviticus COMMAND who should burn the organs, which organs, where they should be burnt and when they are to be burnt? (Yes.)
Did Tobias follow the commands of Leviticus when he burnt fish guts (what, when, where and by whom)? (No.)

Does God typically command people to violate His laws? (No.)
If a spirit command things contrary to what God has already commanded, is that spirit from God? (No.)

THAT is why Tobias is not accepted His God-breathed Holy Scripture.

Amen
Devarim(deuteronomy) 13
[ Be careful to observe only that which I enjoin upon you: neither add to it nor take away from it.]

 

[atpollard]

Can you show me where the Bible says that it’s sinful to burn fish guts? Or can you show that burning fish guts is witchcraft? Do you know any witches specifically who said that they burn fish guts?

Where’s the connection? How do you prove Tobias was sinning? How do you prove Tobias was practicing witchcraft?

Two points.

1. I was making no comment on Tobias and witchcraft. Tobias contradicts the teachings of Deuteronomy and of God. That is reason to suspect it is not God-Breathed.
2. Witchcraft just happens to be a subject that I am VERY well informed about, having read the complete transcripts of the original Salem Witch Trials and several books of commentaries about them. I know about the real witchcraft rather than the modern drivel that passes as witchcraft. The subject is irrelevant to the topic of Tobit’s inspiration.

 

[pinacled]

Devarim
[ "As for that prophet or dream-diviner, he shall be put to death; for he urged disloyalty to the LORD your God—who freed you from the land of Egypt and who redeemed you from the house of bondage—to make you stray from the path that the LORD your God commanded you to follow. Thus you will sweep out evil from your midst."]

 

[NathanH83]

Two points.

1. I was making no comment on Tobias and witchcraft. Tobias contradicts the teachings of Deuteronomy and of God. That is reason to suspect it is not God-Breathed.
2. Witchcraft just happens to be a subject that I am VERY well informed about, having read the complete transcripts of the original Salem Witch Trials and several books of commentaries about them. I know about the real witchcraft rather than the modern drivel that passes as witchcraft. The subject is irrelevant to the topic of Tobit’s inspiration.

Ok....

Leviticus says to burn the inner organs of a sheep (a clean animal). And that’s good.

Tobit says to burn the inner organs of a fish (also clean animal, since Tobias ate it). And that’s....bad?

I’m sorry, I’m not seeing how this is contradictory. Can you please reference the exact scripture verse in the Bible that specifically says not to burn fish organs?

 

[pinacled]

Ok....

Leviticus says to burn the inner organs of a sheep (a clean animal). And that’s good.

Tobit says to burn the inner organs of a fish (also clean animal, since Tobias ate it). And that’s....bad?

I’m sorry, I’m not seeing how this is contradictory. Can you please reference the exact scripture verse in the Bible that specifically says not to burn fish organs?

Matthew 6

Specifically there are 5 offerings mirroring the number of fingers on a hand of charity.
And they are all warmblooded.

 

[pinacled]

Matthew 6

Specifically there are 5 offerings mirroring the number of fingers on a hand of charity.
And they are all warmblooded.

5 being the significant focus like 5 wise.

17 “We have here only five loaves"

 

[atpollard]

Leviticus says to burn the inner organs of a sheep (a clean animal). And that’s good.

Does Leviticus say “if you wake up one morning and feel like burning Sheep organs, anyone can and should do it”?

Tobit says to burn the inner organs of a fish (also clean animal, since Tobias ate it).

Was Tobias a High Priest, of the lineage of Aaron, commanded by God to offer the inner organs of fish in the place, at the time, and in the manner proscribed by God himself? Remember, God KILLED a man for preventing the Ark from falling off a wagon ... because God had given VERY EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS about how the Ark was to be transported and who was to transport it.

And that’s....bad?

... So YES, people who have no right to burn an offering, making a wrong offering that God has not commanded REALLY IS BAD. The “prophet” that claims “The Lord says”, something that the LORD has not said is to be put to death ... not added to the sacred word of God.

Now I have no personal knowledge of or interest in Tobit (or the Gospel of Judas, either). I am simply taking your accusations of what Tobit has written, with no idea of their context, at face value and presenting the Biblical Principles that should allow YOU to evaluate Tobit for yourself.

Can you please reference the exact scripture verse in the Bible that specifically says not to burn fish organs?

What verse in scripture says not to be a slum lord?
Should I buy up cheap houses and charge high rents to desperate people, employing thugs to evict them if they cannot pay their rent and selling their belongings to pay the back rent?
It is not illegal.

What about investing in an Abortion clinic? Or a Gentlemen’s Club?
There are no scriptures forbidding owning a bar filled with naked women, are there?

**********

Let me turn this whole thing around. Jesus says that when you search scripture, there you will find Him. So where does Tobit point men to Jesus Christ and is “profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness”?

I suspect that the answer is not found in burning fish guts.

 

[atpollard]

"Now when the boy went down to wash his feet in the river, a large fish suddenly leaped out of the water and tried to swallow his foot. He shouted in alarm.​

But the angel said to him, "Take hold of the fish and don't let it get away!" The boy seized the fish and hauled it up on the shore.​

The angel then told him: "Cut the fish open and take out its gall, heart, and liver, and keep them with you; but throw away the entrails. Its gall, heart, and liver make useful medicines."​

After the lad had cut the fish open, he put aside the gall, heart, and liver. Then he broiled and ate part of the fish; the rest he salted and kept for the journey.​

Afterward they traveled on together till they were near Media. The boy asked the angel this question: "Brother Azariah, what medicinal value is there in the fish's heart, liver, and gall?"​

He answered: "As regards the fish's heart and liver, if you burn them so that the smoke surrounds a man or a woman who is afflicted by a demon or evil spirit, the affliction will leave him completely, and no demons will ever return to him again.​

And as for the gall, if you rub it on the eyes of a man who has cataracts, blowing into his eyes right on the cataracts, his sight will be restored."​

-Tobit 6:3-9 (New American Bible)​

Just for the record, this “Angel” actually IS teaching witchcraft. Note that the cure is universal ... a “miracle” available to anyone that correctly performs the ritual with the correct ingredients. Not that neither prayer to God nor praise for what God has done is suggested by any part of this. It is a “ritual” (spell) able to control demons without the intervention of God or the need for one anointed by God. It is a ”ritual” (spell) to cause or cure a physical condition without the need for God’s blessing. That is witchcraft and the teaching of false spirits.

Compare this with the ashes of the Red Heifer and the actions for leprosy in Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

 

[Andrew]

The Angel was disguised as a man, had he said "miracle" instead it would have blown his cover

 

[NathanH83]

"Now when the boy went down to wash his feet in the river, a large fish suddenly leaped out of the water and tried to swallow his foot. He shouted in alarm.​

But the angel said to him, "Take hold of the fish and don't let it get away!" The boy seized the fish and hauled it up on the shore.​

The angel then told him: "Cut the fish open and take out its gall, heart, and liver, and keep them with you; but throw away the entrails. Its gall, heart, and liver make useful medicines."​

After the lad had cut the fish open, he put aside the gall, heart, and liver. Then he broiled and ate part of the fish; the rest he salted and kept for the journey.​

Afterward they traveled on together till they were near Media. The boy asked the angel this question: "Brother Azariah, what medicinal value is there in the fish's heart, liver, and gall?"​

He answered: "As regards the fish's heart and liver, if you burn them so that the smoke surrounds a man or a woman who is afflicted by a demon or evil spirit, the affliction will leave him completely, and no demons will ever return to him again.​

And as for the gall, if you rub it on the eyes of a man who has cataracts, blowing into his eyes right on the cataracts, his sight will be restored."​

-Tobit 6:3-9 (New American Bible)​

Just for the record, this “Angel” actually IS teaching witchcraft. Note that the cure is universal ... a “miracle” available to anyone that correctly performs the ritual with the correct ingredients. Not that neither prayer to God nor praise for what God has done is suggested by any part of this. It is a “ritual” (spell) able to control demons without the intervention of God or the need for one anointed by God. It is a ”ritual” (spell) to cause or cure a physical condition without the need for God’s blessing. That is witchcraft and the teaching of false spirits.

Compare this with the ashes of the Red Heifer and the actions for leprosy in Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

Which part is witchcraft? Anointing the gall on his father’s eyes, or burning the heart and liver to drive away the demon? Or are both of them witchcraft? Please specify.

 

[NathanH83]

Does Leviticus say “if you wake up one morning and feel like burning Sheep organs, anyone can and should do it”?


Was Tobias a High Priest, of the lineage of Aaron, commanded by God to offer the inner organs of fish in the place, at the time, and in the manner proscribed by God himself? Remember, God KILLED a man for preventing the Ark from falling off a wagon ... because God had given VERY EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS about how the Ark was to be transported and who was to transport it.


... So YES, people who have no right to burn an offering, making a wrong offering that God has not commanded REALLY IS BAD. The “prophet” that claims “The Lord says”, something that the LORD has not said is to be put to death ... not added to the sacred word of God.

Now I have no personal knowledge of or interest in Tobit (or the Gospel of Judas, either). I am simply taking your accusations of what Tobit has written, with no idea of their context, at face value and presenting the Biblical Principles that should allow YOU to evaluate Tobit for yourself.

What verse in scripture says not to be a slum lord?
Should I buy up cheap houses and charge high rents to desperate people, employing thugs to evict them if they cannot pay their rent and selling their belongings to pay the back rent?
It is not illegal.

What about investing in an Abortion clinic? Or a Gentlemen’s Club?
There are no scriptures forbidding owning a bar filled with naked women, are there?

**********

Let me turn this whole thing around. Jesus says that when you search scripture, there you will find Him. So where does Tobit point men to Jesus Christ and is “profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness”?

I suspect that the answer is not found in burning fish guts.

Oh, ok. So you’re saying that you have to be a high priest in the lineage of Aaron in order to present a burnt offering. Hmm....where does the Bible say that you have to be high priest?

Doesn’t 2 Samuel 24 say that David offered a burnt offering on the threshing floor of Araunah? Was David being disobedient? Was David a high priest in the lineage of Aaron?

 

[Castle Church]

Ah! So it WAS found in Hebrew among the early Jews.
Didn’t someone say earlier that there’s no copies in Hebrew or Aramaic?

I am not sure, but apparently there are. That said, just because something is old and found in Hebrew or Aramaic, it does not automatically make it scripture.

Edit*
Also, I would not say texts found in Qumran is "among the early Jews", as that community was 1st Century, not "early" Jewish.

 

[Josiah]

just because something is old and found in Hebrew or Aramaic, it does not automatically make it scripture.

Obviously.....


Well, should be.



.

 

[atpollard]

Which part is witchcraft? Anointing the gall on his father’s eyes, or burning the heart and liver to drive away the demon? Or are both of them witchcraft? Please specify.

Is a Christian website really the appropriate place for a tutorial on witchcraft?

The Reader’s Digest answer is any miracle that does not require God to work is witchcraft ... if you do THIS, then THAT will happen. As opposed to God commands you to do THIS, and because of your obedience, God will do THAT.

One treats “god” as a force to be manipulated, while the other is a petition to God for favor, an act of obedience and a response by God that prompts gratitude towards God and what He has done.

 

[NathanH83]

Is a Christian website really the appropriate place for a tutorial on witchcraft?

The Reader’s Digest answer is any miracle that does not require God to work is witchcraft ... if you do THIS, then THAT will happen. As opposed to God commands you to do THIS, and because of your obedience, God will do THAT.

One treats “god” as a force to be manipulated, while the other is a petition to God for favor, an act of obedience and a response by God that prompts gratitude towards God and what He has done.

But it says it was medicine, not magic. Are all doctors witches?

 

[atpollard]

But it says it was medicine, not magic. Are all doctors witches?

Is a “natural medicine” to ward off demonic possession really not “witchcraft” in your opinion?

I have explained it to you, but if you don’t see the difference, then I really can’t understand it for you.
Good Luck reading about Tobit and his witchcraft teaching Angel.
I am glad it is not included in MY Bible.

 

[pinacled]

But it says it was medicine, not magic. Are all doctors witches?

A cultural hebrew example of witches is one who sleeps in cemeteries. "marking themselves for the dead".
Which should bring to mind the account of the person possesed by legion till Yeshua(Jesus) healed them.

No medicinal remedies were mentioned in the account of Yeshua healing the person afflicted.

The account of a supposed faithful woman to be afflicted by a demon is highly suspect of being a falsehood .
Especially concerning a demon killing husbands.
It's as if the author is saying that the marriage chamber was the grave/cemetery.

No where in TaNaKh is any such thing ever mentioned to have occurred.

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

The numerical composition of 7 husbands mourned for 7 weeks similar to the weeks between pesach and shavuot are suspect.

Instead of The Ruach Hakodesh given, fish guts are the substitute for healing in the account of tobit.

Strange fire far as I can see.
Vayikra(leviticus) 10

 

[pinacled]

A lenten season

 

[NathanH83]

Is a “natural medicine” to ward off demonic possession really not “witchcraft” in your opinion?

I have explained it to you, but if you don’t see the difference, then I really can’t understand it for you.
Good Luck reading about Tobit and his witchcraft teaching Angel.
I am glad it is not included in MY Bible.

Well, that’s what I was asking earlier. I was asking if you were talking about when he smeared fish guts on his fathers eyes. Is that witchcraft? Or is it just warding off the spirit with the smoke?

Also, when David played the harp to drive away the evil spirit afflicting Saul, is that witchcraft?